Who is right—Paul, David, or are they both right?
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Why is it you can not understand anyone?
did I mention salvation? No. so why did you mention salvation?
our conversation is the requirement of the law as given. Not salvation
yes we are talking about scripture. And you want to talk about Paul and moses
i told you what they both said about the law. Yet you refuse to talk about what they said.
so who is being insincere here madam?
did I mention salvation? No. so why did you mention salvation?
our conversation is the requirement of the law as given. Not salvation
yes we are talking about scripture. And you want to talk about Paul and moses
i told you what they both said about the law. Yet you refuse to talk about what they said.
so who is being insincere here madam?
Sure.
They're both right.
They were both law-keepers.
As was Jesus to His very last breath.
As were ALL His disciples and ALL Christians for about 300 years thereafter.
I think you missed this in your 'Repentance/Salvation' thread, Blik:
Both King David and Paul the Apostle were loyal to God's/Jesus' 10 Commandments.
They're both right.
They were both law-keepers.
As was Jesus to His very last breath.
As were ALL His disciples and ALL Christians for about 300 years thereafter.
I think you missed this in your 'Repentance/Salvation' thread, Blik:
Both King David and Paul the Apostle were loyal to God's/Jesus' 10 Commandments.
Well, ... everybody has sinned ...
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
(1 Jn. 1:8-10)
... and everybody does sin.
"For we all stumble in many things..."
(Jam. 3:2)
In order for it to be a stumble, we must first be striving to walk upright (righteously).
We cannot live in habitual sin and expect Jesus to continue to wipe up our continual/intentional mess.
When we strive for righteousness, obedience to God's/Jesus' Commands, He sees our heart's intention and He supports our efforts with His Holy Spirit - guiding and giving strength to live holy lives; just as Jesus did.
"He who says he abides in Him (Jesus Christ) ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
(1 Jn. 2:6)
Jesus was 100% sinless when He took His last breath on the Cross of Calvary. None of us are, but we CAN strive to imitate our beloved Master. Every servant goes where his Master goes in the end - if he is a true servant.
All that is needed to decide is ... Who is your Master, the World and the approval of man ... or God and His Son who lived a life of obscurity that culminated in persecution and suffering.
"Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."
(1 Pet. 1-2)
ETA: Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners in reference to his time before he was converted on the road to Damascus. Before that, he was an outright murderer. I'd say he made up for it by penning more books of the Bible than anybody else.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
(1 Jn. 1:8-10)
... and everybody does sin.
"For we all stumble in many things..."
(Jam. 3:2)
In order for it to be a stumble, we must first be striving to walk upright (righteously).
We cannot live in habitual sin and expect Jesus to continue to wipe up our continual/intentional mess.
When we strive for righteousness, obedience to God's/Jesus' Commands, He sees our heart's intention and He supports our efforts with His Holy Spirit - guiding and giving strength to live holy lives; just as Jesus did.
"He who says he abides in Him (Jesus Christ) ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
(1 Jn. 2:6)
Jesus was 100% sinless when He took His last breath on the Cross of Calvary. None of us are, but we CAN strive to imitate our beloved Master. Every servant goes where his Master goes in the end - if he is a true servant.
All that is needed to decide is ... Who is your Master, the World and the approval of man ... or God and His Son who lived a life of obscurity that culminated in persecution and suffering.
"Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."
(1 Pet. 1-2)
ETA: Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners in reference to his time before he was converted on the road to Damascus. Before that, he was an outright murderer. I'd say he made up for it by penning more books of the Bible than anybody else.
Another thing many don't acknowledge is that Jesus 'IS' God.
"In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
(Jn. 1:1-4)
Therefore, Jesus' Commandments are God's Commandments.
"If you love me, keep my Commandments."
(Jn. 14:15 Jesus speaking)
"You are my friends if you do whatever I command you."
(Jn. 15:14 Jesus speaking)
When God "MADE" the 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai, by physically writing in stone with His own finger ... TWICE, Jesus was the operative force behind that action. Not just present, but fully responsible for the giving of the Commandments.
So not only did Jesus "CREATE" the 10 Commandments, but Jesus instituted the Sabbath Day at Creation.
Jesus' Commandments are God's Commandments. He not only made it conceptually simple - 10 straight forward Commandments to live by - but He also made the incident itself extremely dramatic. Yes, writing them IN STONE ... TWICE !
"In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
(Jn. 1:1-4)
Therefore, Jesus' Commandments are God's Commandments.
"If you love me, keep my Commandments."
(Jn. 14:15 Jesus speaking)
"You are my friends if you do whatever I command you."
(Jn. 15:14 Jesus speaking)
When God "MADE" the 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai, by physically writing in stone with His own finger ... TWICE, Jesus was the operative force behind that action. Not just present, but fully responsible for the giving of the Commandments.
So not only did Jesus "CREATE" the 10 Commandments, but Jesus instituted the Sabbath Day at Creation.
Jesus' Commandments are God's Commandments. He not only made it conceptually simple - 10 straight forward Commandments to live by - but He also made the incident itself extremely dramatic. Yes, writing them IN STONE ... TWICE !
Oh, I thought you said, "
Both King David and Paul the Apostle were loyal to God's/Jesus' 10 Commandments." and "They were both law-keepers."
As far as Paul saying he was chief of sinners, it was three times he referenced it.
Each time revealing deeper awareness of his depravity. Something most of us Evangelicals could use a few more doses of.
Both King David and Paul the Apostle were loyal to God's/Jesus' 10 Commandments." and "They were both law-keepers."
As far as Paul saying he was chief of sinners, it was three times he referenced it.
Each time revealing deeper awareness of his depravity. Something most of us Evangelicals could use a few more doses of.
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I would like to clarify my stance as all this bit ting and bobbing, responding to posts and replies, can lead to the wrong impression or Misunderstandings.
I believe we are not under law - but are free to follow it if we are so convinced/convicted.
The one should not condemn the other.
Salvation does not depend on observing law - any more than it depends on someone not observing it.
JESUS is and always will be the perfection of believers.
As we are hidden in Him so He is our perfection.
Thus we are perfect, righteous, clean and so on already - IN CHRIST..
Observing the law is no hinderance to that, unless you
- trust in it to save you
- Act arrogantly towards those who do not concern themselves with law.
This Status of perfection is not attained nor earned By ourselves. Humans cannot be perfect on their own merits and efforts. However as much as we are justified, righteous etc, so to we can be perfect if that comes from Christ and we hide ourselves in Him and bear fruit for Jesus.
I believe we are not under law - but are free to follow it if we are so convinced/convicted.
The one should not condemn the other.
Salvation does not depend on observing law - any more than it depends on someone not observing it.
JESUS is and always will be the perfection of believers.
As we are hidden in Him so He is our perfection.
Thus we are perfect, righteous, clean and so on already - IN CHRIST..
Observing the law is no hinderance to that, unless you
- trust in it to save you
- Act arrogantly towards those who do not concern themselves with law.
This Status of perfection is not attained nor earned By ourselves. Humans cannot be perfect on their own merits and efforts. However as much as we are justified, righteous etc, so to we can be perfect if that comes from Christ and we hide ourselves in Him and bear fruit for Jesus.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Code: V-PPP-APM
Long: Verb - Present Passive Participle - Accusative Plural Masculine
The perfected part is what happened at the cross so it was past tense to this verse but the sanctifying is in the present tense because it was happening at the time of this verse. It continues to happen today.
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There are no verses there to prove He told anybody about the Sabbath at that time, you are correct. But why wouldn't He? It was a pretty big deal to Him.
And if you look in Exodus chapter 16, it is clear that the Commandments were already known before they were given at Mt. Sinai and written in stone in chapter 20.
"Then the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota everyday, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My Law or not. And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."
(Exod. 16:4-5)
Now, we could debate this all night long, but it's pretty clear this was because the 7th Day Sabbath of Creation was the following day and they were not to gather on that day. This was a while before Mt. Sinai and the Official delivery of the 10 Commandments in chapter 20. One could say they had been taught this within the time frame just after the Exodus from Egypt, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that God would teach them His laws casually during that time period and then do so in a MAJORLY dramatic way at Mt. Sinai with entire MOUNTAIN ablaze and a booming God's voice that almost stopped hearts in chests, etc. I think it makes more sense that these laws, at least the Sabbath, had been known for quite some time and were reiterated at Mt. Sinai once and for all.
That's just what I get outta the scripture about it all.
And if you look in Exodus chapter 16, it is clear that the Commandments were already known before they were given at Mt. Sinai and written in stone in chapter 20.
"Then the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota everyday, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My Law or not. And it shall be on the sixth day that they shall prepare what they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."
(Exod. 16:4-5)
Now, we could debate this all night long, but it's pretty clear this was because the 7th Day Sabbath of Creation was the following day and they were not to gather on that day. This was a while before Mt. Sinai and the Official delivery of the 10 Commandments in chapter 20. One could say they had been taught this within the time frame just after the Exodus from Egypt, but it doesn't make a lot of sense that God would teach them His laws casually during that time period and then do so in a MAJORLY dramatic way at Mt. Sinai with entire MOUNTAIN ablaze and a booming God's voice that almost stopped hearts in chests, etc. I think it makes more sense that these laws, at least the Sabbath, had been known for quite some time and were reiterated at Mt. Sinai once and for all.
That's just what I get outta the scripture about it all.
That's why. It was for Him. Mankind had fallen so why give them a Sabbath immediately? All the rules and details about man's Sabbath was only given near Sinai. Had it been given before that I am certain we would have all of those rules listed. It's pretty clear that Israel was learning of this new law right there in Exodus.
I have a hard time believing Paul was a depraved 'sinner.' I also don't embrace the modern statement of Christians being 'sinners.'
Not only are there countless verses in scripture about how much God 'Hates' sinners, but to call oneself a sinner is to accept sin in your life. To completely embrace sin and give up on even trying to fight it.
The True Christian experience is about battle, spiritual battle. It's about self-denial and change. A Christian should be constantly changing, little by little to become more and more like Jesus and less like ourselves. That's why reading the Bible daily is so important. It's the power of God's Word that chips away at our worldly habits and mental stances over time.
Christians sin, yes. But to call oneself a sinner is, to me, to forfeit any separation/sanctification from sin which separates us from God.
I dunno, ... maybe I'm just too much of an idealist. I truly believe God desires that we be perfect and actually strive for that. It's ok to miss the mark if you continue to hold fast to the ideal and keep striving for it with all that you've got for the rest of your days upon the earth.
"... be imitators of God ..." (Eph. 5:1)
"... be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
Not only are there countless verses in scripture about how much God 'Hates' sinners, but to call oneself a sinner is to accept sin in your life. To completely embrace sin and give up on even trying to fight it.
The True Christian experience is about battle, spiritual battle. It's about self-denial and change. A Christian should be constantly changing, little by little to become more and more like Jesus and less like ourselves. That's why reading the Bible daily is so important. It's the power of God's Word that chips away at our worldly habits and mental stances over time.
Christians sin, yes. But to call oneself a sinner is, to me, to forfeit any separation/sanctification from sin which separates us from God.
I dunno, ... maybe I'm just too much of an idealist. I truly believe God desires that we be perfect and actually strive for that. It's ok to miss the mark if you continue to hold fast to the ideal and keep striving for it with all that you've got for the rest of your days upon the earth.
"... be imitators of God ..." (Eph. 5:1)
"... be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
If we, as Christians (Paul included), compare our best works and efforts of righteousness next to the pure, unsullied, holy righteousness of Jesus Christ, we would have to cry out with Peter...
Luke 5:8 (KJV) When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
or with Isaiah....
Isaiah 6:5 (KJV) Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Luke 5:8 (KJV) When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
or with Isaiah....
Isaiah 6:5 (KJV) Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
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Also because his righteousness was based on the law (which tends to proud boasting) and not based on faith in Christ ...
Philippians 3:9 (KJV) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philippians 3:9 (KJV) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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