50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Mar 4, 2020
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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Post means 'after'. So 'after the tribulation of those days' means post trib.
Mark 13:24-27 is a parallel to Matthew 24:29-31. Just nice to compare them.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Post means 'after'. So 'after the tribulation of those days' means post trib.
Angels gather not Jesus.
Gathered FROM HEAVEN.

AGAIN.....is the gathering of rev 14
We are speaking of the rapture.

So yes in your mind...and via omission...your theory works in your circles.

You are now post wrath???

His deal is POST WRATH.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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This is because J. N. Darby is the father of pre-tribulation doctrine, whether you heard of him or not it is always the arguments he introduced into the church that are used.

Basically he fiddled around with one or two words in 2. 2. Thessalonians. He made the word apostastes to mean departure or removal whereas the true meaning is rebellion and the church has always interpreted it as rebellion and Antichrist the man of rebellion or the man of sin, the son of perdition. He is the perpetrator of the Great Tribulation or the great persecution which Jesus warned would come.
DEAD MEN????

YOUR ENTIRE DEAL IS r
Two fold
1) anti pretrib

2) dead men wrong.


Well your deal falls apart.

The very idea of dead men in your circles has one group of dead men correct and one wrong.

So deifying the earlier group as infallable is bizarre.

They were a mess. All over the place doctrinally.

But YOUR GROUP was skewed by a destroyed and scattered israel


Heck all of us would have probably followed the earlier group off the cliff.

Psssst...1948 reset the prophetic clock.

Hello..... You know...about the same time frame YOU GUYS say error crept in


Wow.....just wow

Classic pot <> kettle.


Amazing put of ya'lls own mouth we see the source of the amazing error men get steeped in.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I just put Truth7t7 on my permanent IGNORE LIST. He makes no sense at all.
that is wisdom.

There is a cunningness in the postrib adherents.

Wait...nah

Deception....last days deception
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You assume I have to interpret all parts of Revelation you do except a few pieces, and that harvest means rapture in the pasage. I do not insist that Revelation should be interpreted as an exactly chronological sequence of events.



What do you refer to by 'business'? Be specific. A lot is going on in heaven in the book of Revelation. If you do not present evidence, you do not make a case.

Also, it helps if you show specific verses so I do not have to guess how you interpret the allegories in Revelation.




Show me scripture that says that the wedding is in heaven. If you are talking about Revelation 19, show any verse there that says or implies that there will be a wedding or marriage 'in heaven'. Assuming doctrine is not the same as presenting Biblical evidence for your doctrine. Again, one of my objections to pre-trib is that pre-tribbers 'prove' it by reading pre-trib into a passage, assuming a passage is talking about pre-trib, when there is no reason to view that passage that way and no 'onramp' to the highway of circular reasoning they drive around on. Where is the scripture to justify a rapture before the tribulation to begin with to justify interpreting all these passages in line with pre-trib?
"""What do you refer to by 'business'? Be specific. A lot is going on in heaven in the book of Revelation. If you do not present evidence, you do not make a case""
Jesus makes the case.

Dialogue at the last supper

Says we will drink wine with him in heaven.

Rev 19 says the wife becomes the bride IN HEAVEN.

MANSIONS.....IN HEAVEN.

innumerable number....in heaven.

One glaring glarring mistake the "non heaven" doctrine brings is Jesus as the God man in heaven drawing his flock into THAT SAME DIMENSION.

The fact that you would say "what business in heaven" is telling.

Jesus walked a preplanned multipurpose walk.

Carefully laid out for us to imitate it exactly.

Exactly the same.

Salvation
Power....miracles signs wonders and holy living....intimacy with God
Suffering
Death
Resurrection

And ultimately in heaven...in mansions...in glorified bodied...GATHERED AFTER THE TRIB ON WHITE HORSES ASSEMBLED IN HEAVEN.

Do you see the massive massive omission necessary to adhere to a doctrine????


To top it off ...it is bizarre to think Jesus comes with riderless horses to get us in the sky and do a silly uturn BACK TO EARTH.

SEE the idea of omitting verses?

The glorious future of Gods family erased...for what????
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Post means 'after'. So 'after the tribulation of those days' means post trib.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Post means 'after'. So 'after the tribulation of those days' means post trib.
We both agree he comes in the second coming after the trib.

I need not make Jesus sitting on a cloud with a sickle the same dynamic as him sitting on a horse.

Worse than that is that you have to defend it.

Pssst...that is WHY the postrib workbook omits the rapture verses.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine fits this verse:

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1. Pre-trib rapture is not a sound doctrine since the Bible does not teach it. Matthew 24:29-31 says the return of Christ and our gathering to Him occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says our gathering to Christ occurs at His return after the anti-Christ is already here deceiving people.

2. Pre-trib is an "itching ears" doctrine because it tells people what they would prefer to hear. People in the church prefer to hear they won't have to be present for the great tribulation.

Because they lust after a pre-trib rapture they only pick teachers who will speak the things they want to hear.

3. They turn their ears away from the truth when it is plainly presented. If they would humble themselves to the word of God and receive that the Bible teaches post-trib they could avoid those fables.

It is one thing to be in error, discover the truth, then change. It is another thing to have a conscience seared with a hot iron that has quite readily rejects the word of God.

Any spirit that rejects the word of God is not from God. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Dual Covenant Theology Is A False Teaching, The Only Covenant That Exist Is The Shed Boold On Calvary
God is fully capable of juggling four covenants and satisfying all of them completely and perfectly. Only the Mosaic covenant is obsolete. Scripture does in fact teach this.

However nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that the other three covenants are null and void. On the contrary Scripture is emphatic that all of these covenants will be completely fulfilled....in the age to come aka the millennial reign, which is the extended portion of the DOTL.
 

ResidentAlien

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Why did HE PERSONALLY Tell people nearly 2000 years ago, to:


Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.
What translation is that from? The Greek doesn't say "always be ready," but "stay awake" or "watch."

We should stay awake and watch. We don't know the exact day or hour but we can know the season, Jesus told us that Himself:

"So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near."—Luke 21:31

See also Matthew 24:45-51:

"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites."
 

TheDivineWatermark

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This is because J. N. Darby is the father of pre-tribulation doctrine, whether you heard of him or not it is always the arguments he introduced into the church that are used.
Basically he fiddled around with one or two words in 2. 2. Thessalonians. He made the word apostastes to mean departure or removal whereas the true meaning is rebellion and the church has always interpreted it as rebellion and Antichrist the man of rebellion or the man of sin, the son of perdition.
Total fabrication that I corrected you about, less than one month ago (March 30).

Darby did NOT have that as his argument or his belief (he did NOT interpret that word to mean this, as you suggest he did):

Post #100 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-key-to-the-pre-trib-rapture.198174/post-4522199

...where you had said...

Evmur said:
[...] is also a Darby teaching.

It is exactly why he manipulated the word apostasis to mean departure rather than rebellion.
... I had responded in Post #100 (different thread from this current one)...

[quoting Post #100]

The thing is, he didn't.

You speak as though you know him... but a simple "Search" would prove that he indeed did NOT teach "apostasia [/apostasis]" means "departure" (rather than "rebellion" [from some faith issue])... and the reader can readily ascertain this / his view by looking at his Commentary of this passage, where he is explaining that word in the same way that you all are understanding it (not its most basic definition, as "departure," as you are suggesting he did):

[quoting from one small portion of Darby's commentary, but it is sprinkled THROUGHOUT, in just such a way]

"[...] the already known fact is asserted, that the apostacy must previously take place, and then the man of sin be revealed. Solemn truth! Everything takes its place. The forms and the name of Christianity have long been maintained; true Christians have been disowned; but now there should be a public renunciation of the faith an apostacy. True Christians should have their true place in heaven. But, besides this, there should be a person who would fully realise in sin the character of man without God. He is the man of sin. He does his own will it is but Adam fully developed; and incited by the enemy, he opposes himself to God (it is open enmity against God), and he exalts himself above all that bears the name of God; he assumes the place of God in His temple. So that there is apostacy, that is, the open renunciation of Christianity in general, and an individual who concentrates in his own person (as to the principles of iniquity) the opposition that is made against God.

[and quoting further down]

"Now when the assembly (the assembly, that is, as composed of the true members of Christ) is gone, and consequently the Holy Ghost as the Comforter is no longer dwelling here below, then the apostacy takes place, [See Note #6] the time to remove the hindrance is come, the evil is unbridled, and at length (without saying how much time it will take) the evil assumes a definite shape in him who is its head. The beast comes up from the abyss. Satan not God gives him his authority; and in the second beast all the energy of Satan is present. The man of sin is there.
[...]

" Note #6
"The principle of this may be widely at work individually, as in 1 John 2, it had begun, but the open public manifestation was to come. Jude gives the creeping in to produce corruption John, the going out which characterises the Antichrist.

"Note #7
"We may remark that the apostacy develops itself under the three forms in which man has been in relationship with God; Nature it is the man of sin unrestrained, who exalts himself; Judaism he sits as God in the temple of God; Christianity it is to this that the term apostacy is directly applied in the passage before us."


-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/darby/2_thessalonians/2.htm

[end quoting from Darby's commentary on 2Th2... but again, he mentions this, this way, throughout the piece! I'm not seeing HIM define the word as "DEPARTURE [/RAPTURE]" ANYWHERE in this commentary of that chpt... if he does, plz point it out to me... and yes, my eyesight is BAD :geek: lol]

____________


So, no, Darby did not speak of the text in the manner that you suggest he did (at least that I can tell!)... his viewpoint was closer to *all you-all's* explanation of the word "apostasia [/apostasis]," rather than the explanation a few of us have been presenting ("THE Departure," as in, a "spatial / geographical departure" [verse 1, previously mentioned in the CONTEXT qualifies! (esp with regard to that "otherwise unnecessary" usage of the DEFINITE ARTICLE ['THE'])] and which is a totally LEGIT "definition" of said word). ;)

Let's not wander too far afield of things, here, simply to try to drive your [faulty] points home, and convince the readers of things that are not actually factual in nature. = )


[end quoting Post #100, from LINK at top of this post]


____________



Plz keep a copy of this, or at least a notation of his commentary, in your notes (or on your computer, anything...) so as to not keep repeating this fabrication regarding Darby about the "apostasia" word... because he did NOT use it in such a way.

I suggest the same to you too @Runningman , since you "AGREED" with his inaccurate Post #1717
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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Explain why john saw this huge crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, when John does not start the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not arrive at the midpoint until the 7th seal and does not start the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of until late in chapter 14?
I don't know about most of these things, but I do know v. 14 says: "And he said to me, 'These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.'"
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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First of all, please just write without the caps and other stuff that makes it hard to read on the page. It makes your posts hard to follow when you add all that stuff, and nearly impossible to comprehend in quotes, making replying more difficulty. If you want to emphasize a word or two, pick bold or underline. We don't have sight-word vocabulary for caps so that makes reading comprehension slower and more difficult.

Secondly, the post is hard to follow without the verse in front of us. You spend time posting, but it doesn't do good if people follow what you say. Let's have a look.

II Thessalonians 1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Since there is no evidence in the Bible at all for pre-trib, why would I reinterpret this passage in an unnatural way to make it fit your pre-trib theory? The pre-trib theory rests on assuming pre-trib, then interpreting passages like this around the theory.

Chapter 1 already talks about 'that day.' What happens at that time? Let's take a look at all the things that happen. This is addressed to the 'church' there as we see in verse 1.

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
'You' in verse 7 is the church, a specific church, but church nontheless in context. We see this is the revelation/coming of Jesus, not 'parousia', but the same event. The church is here on that day to receive rest. The wicked are judged on that day.

The verses you refer to in chapter 2 are just a few verses later. The chapter numbers were added later. So why wouldn't 'day of Christ' in chapter 2 refer to this day of rest for believers and vengence for unbelievers?

Also, the word order in 2:1 does not really fit your scenario either, since you have the gathering together of the saints preceding our Lord's coming, and the verse says, "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

We can also compare the sequence here with that of Matthew 24, which sets the tribulation first, then after the tribulation, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering together of the elect. Notice the parallels?

So I do not interpret I Thessalonians 2:1-2 to refer to two separate events. Since I have no motivation to create an argument for pre-trib out of whole cloth, I do not interpret the verse in such a way. Rather, I seek to interpret them consistent with the passage around it and with the rest of scripture.

Do you have any verses you can show that actually teach pre-trib that do not rely on reading pre-trib into the passage in the first place? I would like to see a pre-trib argument that does not rely on circular reasoning or allegorical interpretation if you can come up with one.
I'm continually encouraging folks to consider both chapters as *one context*.

As to your main point here, I had already addressed that back on April 16, in Post #564 (page 29)... but since that post has bold emphasis, and other forms of emphasis, I will try to come back to this point (within a few days, I hope) and make a post without all the forms of emphasis, per your request... in the meantime, here's my Post #564 addressing that point in a very abbreviated way:

Post #564 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534570
 
Jul 23, 2018
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That is all well and good, but Jesus told me personally that "You could find that entire 70th week clearly marked." (He had first said I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked" and told me how to find it. ) I discovered the exact midpoint was marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. I quickly rushed to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I KNEW then I had found what He sent me to find: the 70th week "clearly marked." But I rushed to the 7th seal and read of the 30 mintues of silence and thought: what a great way to start the 70th week.

So, YES, the week has a beginning: the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened to reveal the trumpets.
YES, the week has a midpoint: it is marked by the 7th trumpet.
YES, the week ends: at the 7th vial.
BUT THE BEAST rising is in chapter 13: just after the midpoint - showing us He is revealed only at the midpoint.

What? Do you expect the man of sin to enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and the daily sacrifices keep right on taking place? NEVER! The temple would have to be cleansed. It will be the stopping of the daily sacrifices that will divide the week. Jesus said there would be an abomination. It is when the man of sin declares he is GOD! Jesus also told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination - and we see that fleeing begin in 12:6 - showing us that verse is only a second or two after the abomination and division of the week. It is not a mistake that John wrote of seeing the rising of the beast in chapter 13. This is just after he entered the temple and showed the world that he was John's Antichrist BEAST. But from the time He was revealed, God will give him 42 months. His END will be when Jesus returns as in Rev. 19.

Just so you know, the revealing of the Beast is NOT his middle or his end. it is when he is revealed, meaning that NOW (at that time) people will KNOW who the Beast of Revelation is.


His revealing is not until the midpoint of the week! That is why his 42 months starts near the midpoint. NO ONE WILL KNOW FOR SURE who the Beast is until his revealing. That is what the very word means.

OF COURSE he will be alive and will somewhere but no one will know he is the Beast until his revealing. And Paul's teaching is, He CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining Him is "taken out of the way" or departed.
Imo...you are either partial preterist or. " mid trib "rapture adherent.

The first seals are future.
The revealing of the ac is before the trib.

What you are laying out is in contrast with the time of the gentiles fulfilled and the entry of jacobs trouble.

Billions are murdered at the beginning of the trib.
FOR NOT RECIEVING THE MARK.

IOW THEY REFUSE TO WORSHIP THE AC.

The one on the white horse is the ac.

The horse and crown are types of king Jesus. The ac is " like christ".
A false Christ.
A devil Christ.
A fake Jesus on a horse.
That revealing kicks off the gt.

Revealed is "pre power"

The " revealed" you are presenting is well into his power and the world already is worshipping him. They dont begin to worship him as he enters the temple. He , at that point has martyred billions for refusing him worship.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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A slain lamb is DEAD and not standing. Perhaps He appeared to John the way He really looked after being whipped almost to death, then nailed to a cross, but alive once again.
Not dead.
" as a lamb slain"

It would read " i saw one LAYING DEAD in the midst of the throne."
 
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What translation is that from? The Greek doesn't say "always be ready," but "stay awake" or "watch."

We should stay awake and watch. We don't know the exact day or hour but we can know the season, Jesus told us that Himself:

"So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near."—Luke 21:31

See also Matthew 24:45-51:

"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites."
Have you played out a postrib rapture model?

You do realize the bible says "ALL TAKE THE MARK"

And that by the end of the gt ( in your own model) there is almost none...or none to rapture?
...with a destroyed earth and men praying to die???

The rapture verses are ALL peacetime. All normal life....ALL OF THEM.

But check this out....
ONLY THE 144 k are sealed from the flying scorpions.

Remember..they are born again Jews....But ONLY THEY ARE SEALED.

That means...under your template..christians are being stung to death.

Think about it. How poorly postrib rapture is thought out.

Tons of verses authenticate a pretrib rapture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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But check this out....
ONLY THE 144 k are sealed from the flying scorpions.

Remember..they are born again Jews....But ONLY THEY ARE SEALED.

That means...under your template..christians are being stung to death.
Let's not get too carried away, here ;) , the text in vv.5-6 explicitly states that: "5 And to them it was given that they SHOULD NOT KILL THEM, by that they should be TORMENTED FIVE MONTHS; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."
 
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I have challenged postribs for years to lay out for us a postrib rapture from the bible.
So far no takers.
Just more untruths from a guy who has NO verses that show raptured believers going to heaven.

I thought maybe you did actually have a verse.
Matt 24:29-31
2 Thess 2:1-3

Actually, there are 6.

Pretrib rapture.....solid bible
Just solid bunk.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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By comparing Scripture with Scripture, Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13 -

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off [/thresh] from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


Neither passage is speaking of a "rapture" IN THE AIR.






see also Isaiah 11:11-12 -

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.