Under Law? Under Grace? or both?

[BenAvraham]

UNDER LAW? UNDER GRACE? OR BOTH?

You might have raised eyebrows now, or about ready to comment something negative, but wait a minute, to answer this question, which has been a popular theme in Judeo-Christianity, let’s first take a look at the meanings of these words.

“GRACE” something that is not merited, or deserved. Something we get when we shouldn’t get it. “By GRACE we are saved, not of ourselves, nor by our works, so that no man can boast (saying that he or she did this and that in order to receive God’s acceptance). The Hebrew word for “grace” is “Chen” (pronounced with a guttural “h”) if we look at the word using the ancient Paleo-Hebrew, we can see the symbolism of “The fence of life” Life is within the fence. A fence is to keep in precious and valuable things and keep unwanted things out. Yeshua has us within his “fence of love and salvation” just because He loves us.

“LAW” has been misinterpreted for so long. The word “law” comes from the Latin word “Legis” which means “something legal or legalistic.” However, the Hebrew word that is used is “Torah” which means “instruction.’ If we are to interpret the meaning of “Torah” in Paleo-Hebrew we would see; “The first Covenant of the nail revealed.” If this word had been translated correctly into Latin, it would have been; “instructio” or “educatio” and not “legis”

The Apostol Paul many times refers to “not being under the LAW.” He is stating that we are NOT under LEGALISM, or obedience to the commandments of God IN ORDER TO OBTAIN SALVATION!. Salvation (Yeshuah) comes by GRACE, Through “Yeshua” (play on words?) by our faith and faith in the one-time atonement/sacrifice on Calvary’s Cross. However, as members of God’s family, we now should “walk in and follow the “Instructions of God” (The Torah) which consists of His commandments, not for salvation purpose but because we ARE SAVED. The commandments, which are 613, are for our education, welfare, and spiritual maturity. Of course, not all of the 613 are for today, there are many which are not for today because there is no more temple, the Levitical priesthood is no more, we are not in Israel, etc., yet there are many that ARE for today. Which ones? That requires Bible study and that is on ALL OF US, to search the scriptures. The 10 commandants are the basic ones, the others fall under those 10 categories.

Yes, we are also under grace. Adam and Eve were under grace. Grace was in the Garden of Eden (wait, I thought her name was Eve?) LOL. Had not God given Adam and Eve grace, they would have been killed right then and there. Noah would have perished in the flood, had it not been for God’s grace, and we would all be flowers, trees, grass, or fish today.

So, what is the answer? Are we under Law? Or Grace? Or both? WE can say both YES and NO. Yes, we are under grace, NO we are NOT under legalism, and YES, we are guided by God’s instructions in His Word. At least we should be, but that is the decision that every believer has to make for himself or herself. Following HIS WORD is what our lives are all about. Living for HIM now and reap benefits in the World to Come.

Baruch Ha Shem! (Praise the LORD)

Rabbi Ben Avraham

As a small gift to all you readers, I am enclosing a copy of my eBook "God Tales" for your reading enjoyment. Feel free to read it at leisure, not at one sitting as it has 172 pages. Sorry, too large, so go here to read it:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?106085-My-book-of-short-stories



http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?106085-My-book-of-short-stories

 

[Evmur]

Jesus said all the law and the prophets were these
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God
thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

... how can you legislate love?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The law required perfection, that’s why no one could be justified by the law. Because only Christ has fulfilled the requirement of the law. They rest of us have and are sinning and falling short.

torah has a few interpretations

we have torah as the 1st 5 books of the Bible (law and prophets) it can also br used for all of the OT.

we have the torah of moses (the old covenant)

the first one we are to study to show ourselves approved in arming ourself with the sword,

the second one has been fulfilled, and to those who have come to Christ, the schoolmaster has been completed

 

[Hevosmies]

What about CIRCUMCISION? HUH? Is that a commandment we should follow @BenAvraham

Any europeans here wanna do the snip snip? no???

 

[ResidentAlien]

Hi BenAvraham, thanks for your post.

Jesus said in Matthew 13:52—"Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old."

There's no question we can learn from the Torah. It was the Torah and the Prophets which prophesied about Christ. But what it comes down to is this: Are we living by the Spirit or the flesh? We're under grace, period. We're not under the Torah, whether you define it as a legalistic system or a book of teaching. We're under the law of Christ and the Holy Spirt—that's it.

"You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me"—John 5:39

 

[Blik]

What about CIRCUMCISION? HUH? Is that a commandment we should follow @BenAvraham

Any europeans here wanna do the snip snip? no???

Jesus explained this in the sermon on the Mount. He said "you have been told" and then he gave what the law in stone said was a way to carry out love. Christ said "but I tell you", and he explained how the law in stone was as was the true law of God.

When Jesus was asked about law he explained the law of God saying the basic law was the law of love. You could obey the law in stone legalistically and yet disobey the law of the Lord if you did not have love.

People had been told to cut flesh as a sign to them they were a separate people belonging to God, and that belonging was based on love. But the cutting of flesh has nothing to do with love, we were to listen to the holy spirit to remind us to be circumcised. True circumcision was not a cutting of flesh, but a matter of the heart.

All scripture needs to be followed, not just parts of scripture as the commandment to cut foreskin was a preliminary or shadow of reality. Circumcision of the heart is the reality.

 

[Blik]

Hi BenAvraham, thanks for your post.

Jesus said in Matthew 13:52—"Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old."

There's no question we can learn from the Torah. It was the Torah and the Prophets which prophesied about Christ. But what it comes down to is this: Are we living by the Spirit or the flesh? We're under grace, period. We're not under the Torah, whether you define it as a legalistic system or a book of teaching. We're under the law of Christ and the Holy Spirt—that's it.

"You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me"—John 5:39

It is true we are not saved through the law but we are saved through grace.

But Christ did not wipe out anything of the Torah or what His Father said or was, Christ explained it and made every promise of the Torah complete by fulfilling it. The Torah promised salvation through Christ, and that is what Christ did for us.

In the old testament they even had grace through the shadow of Christ. It was not perfect grace as it was after the crucifix. Christ completed and perfected it.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

UNDER LAW? UNDER GRACE? OR BOTH?

Precious friend(s), would God Have us Be Under BOTH, Which
Confuses HIS TWO Different Programs? i.e:

Prophecy, Under The Law

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2 : 15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

Revelation Of HIS Mystery, Under GRACE!

Precious friend(s), for your prayerful/Careful Consideration:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
+
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ↑ ♫

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

We're under grace, period. We're not under the Torah, whether you define it as a legalistic system or a book of teaching. We're under the law of Christ and the Holy Spirt {sp?}—that's it.

And, we Also "fulfill ALL The Law In ONE WORD: LOVE
thy neighbor as thyself!" (Galatians 5 : 14; Romans 13 : 8-10 KJB!)

See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ↑ ♫

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, what is the answer? Are we under Law? Or Grace? Or both?

We are under the Law of Christ, which is under grace. A lot of people forget that the Law of Christ is written on hearts and minds rather than on tablets of stones. But it is the same Law of Love, which is called the Law of Liberty and the Royal Law. So in fact there is no conflict. Thus who have been justified by grace through faith are under the Law of Christ.

To them that are without law, as without law, being not without law to God, but under the Law to Christ, that I might gain them that are without law. (1 Cor 9:21)

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the Law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)

But whoso looketh into the perfect Law of Liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (James 1:25)

If ye fulfil The Royal Law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (James 2:8)

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the Law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law. (Rom 13:8-10)

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (Lev 19:18)

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Mt 19:19)

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Mt 22:37-40)

In view of what Christ has said above (in all those Scriptures), any Christian who claims that he or she is not under the Law of Christ is simply self-deceived (or deceived by Satan).

 

[Blik]

Precious friend(s), would God Have us Be Under BOTH, Which
Confuses HIS TWO Different Programs? i.e:

↑ ♫

When understood from God's point of view and not human interpretation, YES, we are under both.

Law has nothing to do with our salvation, We are not Gods that we can save ourselves. We are under grace alone.

When we are saved, we accept Christ within. We cannot want Christ within even though we are human and have sin within, We must want Christ, and if we have Christ we abhor what we learn through the law is sin. We are not under the law for salvation, but we listen to the law so we pinpoint and stay away from wanting to sin. In that way, we are under the law.

 

[Dino246]

When understood from God's point of view and not human interpretation, YES, we are under both.

That is not what Scripture says. What Scripture does say is this:

For, on the one hand there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect) (Hebrews 7:18-19a)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. (Hebrews 8:7)

When He said, "A new covenent," He has made the first obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13a)

He takes away the first to establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)

We cannot want Christ within even though we are human and have sin within

Sure we can, which is why so many Christians don't grow in their faith. Christians are forgiven for their sin and empowered to break free from the clutches of sin, but the actual freeing can take decades.

We are not under the law for salvation, but we listen to the law so we pinpoint and stay away from wanting to sin. In that way, we are under the law.

That is not what "under the law" means at all. What it means is that you must obey everything or be guilty. Christians are not in this state, and using any other meaning for the term only brings confusion.

 

[BenAvraham]

The old covenant was based on animal sacrifices. This old covenant has "passed away" and Yeshua was the "Sacrifice Lamb" who establish the New Covenant, under who we are now based. One sacrifice for all time. Baruch HaShem!

 

[Magenta]

We cannot want Christ within... We must want Christ

 

[wattie]

UNDER LAW? UNDER GRACE? OR BOTH?

You might have raised eyebrows now, or about ready to comment something negative, but wait a minute, to answer this question, which has been a popular theme in Judeo-Christianity, let’s first take a look at the meanings of these words.

“GRACE” something that is not merited, or deserved. Something we get when we shouldn’t get it. “By GRACE we are saved, not of ourselves, nor by our works, so that no man can boast (saying that he or she did this and that in order to receive God’s acceptance). The Hebrew word for “grace” is “Chen” (pronounced with a guttural “h”) if we look at the word using the ancient Paleo-Hebrew, we can see the symbolism of “The fence of life” Life is within the fence. A fence is to keep in precious and valuable things and keep unwanted things out. Yeshua has us within his “fence of love and salvation” just because He loves us.

“LAW” has been misinterpreted for so long. The word “law” comes from the Latin word “Legis” which means “something legal or legalistic.” However, the Hebrew word that is used is “Torah” which means “instruction.’ If we are to interpret the meaning of “Torah” in Paleo-Hebrew we would see; “The first Covenant of the nail revealed.” If this word had been translated correctly into Latin, it would have been; “instructio” or “educatio” and not “legis”

The Apostol Paul many times refers to “not being under the LAW.” He is stating that we are NOT under LEGALISM, or obedience to the commandments of God IN ORDER TO OBTAIN SALVATION!. Salvation (Yeshuah) comes by GRACE, Through “Yeshua” (play on words?) by our faith and faith in the one-time atonement/sacrifice on Calvary’s Cross. However, as members of God’s family, we now should “walk in and follow the “Instructions of God” (The Torah) which consists of His commandments, not for salvation purpose but because we ARE SAVED. The commandments, which are 613, are for our education, welfare, and spiritual maturity. Of course, not all of the 613 are for today, there are many which are not for today because there is no more temple, the Levitical priesthood is no more, we are not in Israel, etc., yet there are many that ARE for today. Which ones? That requires Bible study and that is on ALL OF US, to search the scriptures. The 10 commandants are the basic ones, the others fall under those 10 categories.

Yes, we are also under grace. Adam and Eve were under grace. Grace was in the Garden of Eden (wait, I thought her name was Eve?) LOL. Had not God given Adam and Eve grace, they would have been killed right then and there. Noah would have perished in the flood, had it not been for God’s grace, and we would all be flowers, trees, grass, or fish today.

So, what is the answer? Are we under Law? Or Grace? Or both? WE can say both YES and NO. Yes, we are under grace, NO we are NOT under legalism, and YES, we are guided by God’s instructions in His Word. At least we should be, but that is the decision that every believer has to make for himself or herself. Following HIS WORD is what our lives are all about. Living for HIM now and reap benefits in the World to Come.

Baruch Ha Shem! (Praise the LORD)

Rabbi Ben Avraham

As a small gift to all you readers, I am enclosing a copy of my eBook "God Tales" for your reading enjoyment. Feel free to read it at leisure, not at one sitting as it has 172 pages. Sorry, too large, so go here to read it:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?106085-My-book-of-short-stories



http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?106085-My-book-of-short-stories

We aim to serve Jesus because He first loved us by His grace.

How do we serve? Through the instructions of Gods Word.

But even following these instructions is a system of GRACE, because failing in following them .. we are kept by Jesus' unconditional commitment.

Jesus will still convict, discipline and rebuke at us not following Him, but He doesn't leave us.

So both eternal salvation and service to Jesus are based on grace.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 1:3 + Philippians 2:13

 

[Blik]

That is not what Scripture says. What Scripture does say is this:

For, on the one hand there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect) (Hebrews 7:18-19a)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. (Hebrews 8:7)

When He said, "A new covenent," He has made the first obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13a)

He takes away the first to establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)



Sure we can, which is why so many Christians don't grow in their faith. Christians are forgiven for their sin and empowered to break free from the clutches of sin, but the actual freeing can take decades.


That is not what "under the law" means at all. What it means is that you must obey everything or be guilty. Christians are not in this state, and using any other meaning for the term only brings confusion.

We always disagree because you do not accept the old testament as scripture about God. The old covenant was given to us by the Lord!! It is holy and good. It was faulty in that it does not work as well as the new covenant. The new covenant is much better and makes many things about it obsolete.

You seem to understand that if we were under law for salvation we would have to obey it perfectly, as I have pointed out, but we are under grace. You sat so, I say so, and you say I am wrong to say that!! Oh Boy.

Is you objection to living with Christ within after salvation?

 

[Dino246]

We always disagree because you do not accept the old testament as scripture about God.

Prove it with evidence; I won't tolerate fabrications.

Quote me where I have stated or implied that I "don't accept the old testament as scripture about God".

Or, retract the accusation and apologize.

 

[Adstar]

Under Law: To be convicted of our sin and to be convinced of our need for Redemption..

Under Grace: To have our transgressions Atoned for and to be in the right place with God to be Redeemed..

 

[mailmandan]

Beware of misguided teachers of the law who teach "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)