Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Major]

Then read my posts again, and the many scriptures that are within and in KJV. If I didnt post the verse reference it can be asked of me, or looked up easily HERE

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=+there+is+neither+male+nor+female&version=KJV

Therefore edit out your opening statement., as an apology.

But Yes I agree in your church system, there is male and female and the men suppress the women, and tell them to be quiet, and don;t prophesy etc etc etc.

But such is not the case with the Lord and His women and His men.

Just push your edit button, its easy

CONTEXT. REALITY.

READ the book then make your comment. UNDERSTAND why God had Paul write what he did.

Women were told to be quiet in church 2000 years ago because CONTEXT syas that they wer talking while MEN were teaching which caused confusion. So God siad.....BE quiet and listen and learn.

Second......2000 years ago, women were not educated. There were NO women in the Jewish ruling Sanhedrin. A good mule was more thought of than a women.

That of course has changed. Women are now educated, smart and well thought of as an equal to men. However......that does not then mean that we remove the Scriptures from the Bible which GOD SAID that it is a MAN who is to pastor His church.

Women today are music ministers in church, teachers in church, hold offices in church and do everything a man does EXCEPT be the Pastor because GOD SAID...."If A MAN desires to be a Pastor HE desires a good work".

Now, we can banter back and forth and use every philosophic argument known to man, but what God said is what GOD SAID.

 

[Major]

I wasn't intending to write this but as I was reading the letter to Titus this morning a thought passed me by and lodged in my brain and it was this. This passage shows how much we like to misinterpret the scripture to fit our theology instead of our theology fitting in with scripture.

T|he letter says that Paul left Titus in Crete to set things in order and appoint Elders in every city. This means that things were not in order and that Elders had not been appointed in every city. Currently there are 144 cities/towns in Crete but in those days no doubt there would have been a lot fewer but even so it was a tall order to establish Elders in every town in Crete.

Please note he did not tell him to establish pastors in every city.

Paul then goes on to give Titus guidlines for the appointment of Elders. The first is "If a MAN is blameless and the HUSBAND of one WIFE, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination........"

Note a MAN and HUSBAND of one WIFE...... So where is the instruction about appointing a WOMAN who is the WIFEof one HUSBAND? It is not there because it never happened. Twenty six verses confirm that Elders were always male. So why on earth do people get a bee in their bonnet about women running churches? If it is not in scrpture, why do we try and make the scripture fit our theology instead of making our theology fit the scriptures? Not logical and not scriptural.

it goes onto say that "For a Bishop (Elder).......holding fast the faithful word as HE has been taught (not SHE has been taught), that HE may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. ( There were false teachers in the Cretian Church).

So we have the MALE bit again and do not have the FEMALE bit again.

I wonder also how those who consider learning and study and being skilled in sound doctrine irrelevant can explain this away.

And if everyone would go back to the very first post in this thread.......what you just posted is exactly what I SAID 132 pages ago!!!!

You said...........
"If a MAN is blameless and the HUSBAND of one WIFE, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination........"

That is the exact word that GOD SAID in 1 Timothy 3:1-2.

So then the debate is not about MAN or WOMAN as a Pastor..... but instead is ....
"WHY DO THOSE WHO WANT WOMEN TO BE PASTORS REJECT THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD"?????

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I only used cops as an example my friend. We could have said pastors, or car mechanics.

What I said about Adam and Eve are Biblical facts. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and because of that God had a curse on them, which of course effect all of mankind. ALL women go through birth pains because of Eves choice. Adam and Eve were only concerned with Adam and Eve at the time God spoke to them.

Of course the humility of a man and a women is the same.....but that has absolutly nothing to do with the ordination of a woman to the position of a Pastor of a church.

In fact it is the opposite!!!! That woman has NOT humbeled herself to God's Word and submitted hersel to her husband so your point is actually mute.

You might mean moot as opposed to mute.

But, my point is that if men do not understand properly the sign behind men and women representing the Lord Jesus and mankind is because at other points in the bible, God may be referring to the daughters of Judah or daughters of Zion or women in general, he may actually be including the priesthood. We can read this in Isaiah Chapter 3.

If men do not understand that this is not just a worldly command to women, it is indeed commanding them, they may be missing things and drawing wrong conclusions in other places in scripture.

That is my point. If that is a moot point to you, I'm not too worried about it.

 

[ChoirLoft]

It is not my intention to cause an argument or division among the faithful with that question just discussion in a Christian and civil manner.

I have always simply posted the Word of God as it is written. I post this question in order to properly attempt to teach the Word of God....PEROID!

1 Timothy 3:1-2.........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

According to the written Word of God, a Pastor can only be a "Male/Man".

Now, before anyone argues that point or disagree with me, remember that the "One" who said..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also was the "One" who said......
"if a "MAN" desire the office of a bishop".

The old Major did not have anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus Christ placed into the Word of God. The old Major just reads it and accepts it as it is written so your disagreements will be with Christ and not me!!!!

Now the question must be WHY would God do that?

1 Timothy 2:13-14 .....
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It’s important to understand that Paul does not prohibit women from teaching in all contexts (Titus 2:3; Acts 18:25-26), only from teaching the Bible to men in the church.

Notice that Paul prohibits women from doing two distinct things.

1.
Women may not teach the Bible to men in the church.
2.
Women may not exercise authority over men in the church.

Teaching and exercising authority in the church are the two primary responsibilities of elders, pastors, or bishops. Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

Again, for the inquisitive minds the question is still...WHY is that the case.

I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).

What of Deborah, who was anointed of God to be JUDGE in ancient Israel?
What of Miriam, who was anointed of God to be PROPHET in ancient Israel?
What of Ruth, who followed God's people and became the grandmother of King David?
What of Mary, who was the mother of Jesus Christ?

Shall I go on?

Indeed men are generally appointed as leaders in the Bible, but women are not without a witness of God's provision for justice, wisdom, guidance and example by way of good character.

While I remain in opposition to modern misandric attitudes, I don't believe women ought to be dismissed out of hand for their just and fair contributions in the Bible and to society in general.

Men are generally held responsible for spiritual leadership. Unfortunately they usually don't equip themselves for it and adopt an attitude of superiority instead of humble understanding. Which is why my family left the church years ago.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Major]

What of Deborah, who was anointed of God to be JUDGE in ancient Israel?
What of Miriam, who was anointed of God to be PROPHET in ancient Israel?
What of Ruth, who followed God's people and became the grandmother of King David?
What of Mary, who was the mother of Jesus Christ?

Shall I go on?

Indeed men are generally appointed as leaders in the Bible, but women are not without a witness of God's provision for justice, wisdom, guidance and example by way of good character.

While I remain in opposition to modern misandric attitudes, I don't believe women ought to be dismissed out of hand for their just and fair contributions in the Bible and to society in general.

Men are generally held responsible for spiritual leadership. Unfortunately they usually don't equip themselves for it and adopt an attitude of superiority instead of humble understanding. Which is why my family left the church years ago.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

It seems to me that what you are trying to say is that the world is slowly creeping into the Christian Church in various forms such as contemplative prayer, and over-board concern for seeker sensitivity, in various forms of political correctness, and what we are talking about on this thread which is women pastors. This is in my opinion a manifestation of the latter error where by YOUR wants and opinions are more important that what God said.

Deborah was a Judge in the Jewish nation of Israel and NOT an ordained Pastor, and there was NO Church then.

Miriam was also not an ordained minister. Again, there was NO church in existence.

Ruth was the mother of Obed who was the grandfather of David. How in the world does that make her a Pastor of the church when there was no church in existence?

Mary was the mother of Jesus, a sinner who needed to be saved just like you and me. How does that possibly relate to the question at hand????????

NO ONE has said that women are to be dismissed out of hand. I for one have said the exact opposite.......and if you had read all the posts of this thread you would have know that.

Women can and do hold every position in the New Test. Church except the office of Deacon and Pastor and that is because GOD SAID that that position belonged to MAN who was the HUSBAND of one wife.

YOUR family may have left the church, but you will never convince me that is was because GOD SAID that MEN were to be Pastors.

 

[Major]

You might mean moot as opposed to mute.

But, my point is that if men do not understand properly the sign behind men and women representing the Lord Jesus and mankind is because at other points in the bible, God may be referring to the daughters of Judah or daughters of Zion or women in general, he may actually be including the priesthood. We can read this in Isaiah Chapter 3.

If men do not understand that this is not just a worldly command to women, it is indeed commanding them, they may be missing things and drawing wrong conclusions in other places in scripture.

That is my point. If that is a moot point to you, I'm not too worried about it.

Yes.....thank you!

No sir.......NO WHERE in the Scriptures is there a SIGN which suggests that God may be suggesting that women in general maybe included in the Jewish priest hood.

Real time actual historical and Biblical facts tell us that Jewish women were not allowed to be priests, then or now but evidence suggests women were involved in some of these ancillary functions – especially teaching, music and dancing.

To say that Isiah 3 suggests women are included in the rule of a Jewish priest is simply incorrect.

Isiah 3:12 says..........
"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

That does NOT suggest women priests but is a NEGITIVE comment about women be rulers without approval from God.

 

[Mem]

I think the WNT translates 1Ti 3:11 most precisely, "Deaconesses, in the same way, must be sober-minded women, not slanderers, but in every way temperate and trustworthy.

 

[CS1]

I think the WNT translates 1Ti 3:11 most precisely, "Deaconesses, in the same way, must be sober-minded women, not slanderers, but in every way temperate and trustworthy.

the WNT?

what is that, the "Women's New Testament"? lol

 

[Mem]

hard *pinch*

the WNT?

what is that, the "Women's New Testament"? lol

just saying, most accurate, contextually in this particular instance. so nyeh

 

[CS1]

hard *pinch*



just saying, most accurate, contextually in this particular instance. so nyeh

lol

 

[Truth7t7]

And if everyone would go back to the very first post in this thread.......what you just posted is exactly what I SAID 132 pages ago!!!!

You said...........
"If a MAN is blameless and the HUSBAND of one WIFE, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination........"

That is the exact word that GOD SAID in 1 Timothy 3:1-2.

So then the debate is not about MAN or WOMAN as a Pastor..... but instead is ....
"WHY DO THOSE WHO WANT WOMEN TO BE PASTORS REJECT THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD"?????

There are 132 pages of open rebellion, as Gods words are screaming clear on the subject of a womans role in the church

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[Mem]

Yes! It is Weymouth New Testament Biblical ox

 

[Dino246]

There are 132 pages of open rebellion, as Gods words are screaming clear on the subject of a womans role in the church

You are the only one screaming.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Yes.....thank you!

No sir.......NO WHERE in the Scriptures is there a SIGN which suggests that God may be suggesting that women in general maybe included in the Jewish priest hood.

Real time actual historical and Biblical facts tell us that Jewish women were not allowed to be priests, then or now but evidence suggests women were involved in some of these ancillary functions – especially teaching, music and dancing.

To say that Isiah 3 suggests women are included in the rule of a Jewish priest is simply incorrect.

Isiah 3:12 says..........
"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

That does NOT suggest women priests but is a NEGITIVE comment about women be rulers without approval from God.

Who do we know that walk making a sound or a "tinkling with their feet?" The priest.

Isaiah 3:15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

The clue is the "tinkling with their feet."

Exodus 28:33 And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:

34 A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.

35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.


The priests could very well add more entries into their writings and sit in synagogues and have rabbis preach about moral behavior and admonish their female congregation about modest clothing and completely miss that the condemnation was aimed at them on the subject of verse 15.

That's what men must understand, that Eve is the image and glory of man and what God says to her was said to all mankind. It's not limited by biology, it's expressed spiritually and in similitude.

 

[Major]

Who do we know that walk making a sound or a "tinkling with their feet?" The priest.

Isaiah 3:15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

The clue is the "tinkling with their feet."

Exodus 28:33 And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:

34 A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.

35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.


The priests could very well add more entries into their writings and sit in synagogues and have rabbis preach about moral behavior and admonish their female congregation about modest clothing and completely miss that the condemnation was aimed at them on the subject of verse 15.

That's what men must understand, that Eve is the image and glory of man and what God says to her was said to all mankind. It's not limited by biology, it's expressed spiritually and in similitude.

I am sure that YOU believe that those Scriptures in some way mean that women are called to priests. But als....that simply is a real overreach my friend. That is the process of READING INTO the Scriptures what we want them to say.

I think you are referring to 1 Corinthians 11:7...........
" For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man.

A common understanding of that Scripture has been that, compared with woman, man is a more direct reflection of God and man has a more direct relationship with God. Moreover, it has been understood that these factors are displayed in the supposed superiority and authority of man in contrast to the inferior and subordinate status of woman.

Writing about 250 years ago, John Gill said:

“. . . man was first originally and immediately the image and glory of God, the woman only secondarily and mediately through man. The man is more perfectly and conspicuously the image and glory of God, on account of his more extensive dominion and authority."

In Genesis 1, there is nothing at all to indicate that women, intrinsically, have a lower status or less authority than men. In Gen. 1:26-28, men and women have the exact same status as God’s image-bearers, and they have the exact same authority and purpose. Men and women are to share the rule of God’s creation.

 

[Major]

There are 132 pages of open rebellion, as Gods words are screaming clear on the subject of a womans role in the church

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

And YOU are correct just as I also stated! All of this is saying that what GOD SAID was not correct and "I KNOW MORE THAN GOD"!

 

[CS1]

I am sure that YOU believe that those Scriptures in some way mean that women are called to priests. But als....that simply is a real overreach my friend. That is the process of READING INTO the Scriptures what we want them to say.

I think you are referring to 1 Corinthians 11:7...........
" For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man.

A common understanding of that Scripture has been that, compared with woman, man is a more direct reflection of God and man has a more direct relationship with God. Moreover, it has been understood that these factors are displayed in the supposed superiority and authority of man in contrast to the inferior and subordinate status of woman.

Writing about 250 years ago, John Gill said:

“. . . man was first originally and immediately the image and glory of God, the woman only secondarily and mediately through man. The man is more perfectly and conspicuously the image and glory of God, on account of his more extensive dominion and authority."

In Genesis 1, there is nothing at all to indicate that women, intrinsically, have a lower status or less authority than men. In Gen. 1:26-28, men and women have the exact same status as God’s image-bearers, and they have the exact same authority and purpose. Men and women are to share the rule of God’s creation.

the priest's office is no more they are no longer needed we have high Preist from the order of Melchizedek. the only other priest today is the one of the home the husband.

The church Has apostles, prophets, evangelists, Pastor /teachers.

 

[Major]

I think the WNT translates 1Ti 3:11 most precisely, "Deaconesses, in the same way, must be sober-minded women, not slanderers, but in every way temperate and trustworthy.

1 Timothy 3:11 in the KJV says more correctly that.........
"Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things."

American Standard Version
Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.

Berean Study Bible
In the same way, the women must be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in all things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The women in like manner chaste, not slanderers, but sober, faithful in all things.

English Revised Version
Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.

World English Bible
Their wives in the same way must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.

Young's Literal Translation
Women -- in like manner grave, not false accusers, vigilant, faithful in all things.

NASB 1995
Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

New Living Translation
In the same way, their wives must be respected and must not slander others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.

American Standard Version
Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.

Berean Study Bible
In the same way, the women must be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in all things.

I think you are going to have to try some other way to support your idea. The BOTTOM line seems to me that you do not like what GOD SAID so you are fishing for something that will support what YOU want the Scriptures to say.

But that is just an observation!

 

[Major]

the priest's office is no more they are no longer needed we have high Preist from the order of Melchizedek. the only other priest today is the one of the home the husband.

The church Has apostles, prophets, evangelists, Pastor /teachers.

And that is Bible 101!

 

[Major]

hard *pinch*



just saying, most accurate, contextually in this particular instance. so nyeh

Funny.........but wrong!