What is your take here The LORD's soul (nephesh)

[Live4Him]

You know oneness theologians talk in the same categories.. Interesting. And some other cults.

Hey, Phil.

Whether right or wrong in your eyes, she really doesn't pay any mind to terminologies like "oneness". Personally, I don't believe that she thinks that Jesus and the Father are the same "person" (for lack of a better word) if that's what you're inquiring about.

She and I have probably been on about 8 or 9 (or more) different forums together over about a 10 to 15 year timespan, and that is how we became friends. BELIEVE ME, if she gets into anything crazy (and I'm not suggesting that she ever has), then she knows that I carry a big stick...lol.

Anyhow, if you do converse with her anymore in the future, then it's probably best to just stick to discussing the scriptures themselves with her apart from terminologies. I'm NOT suggesting that you've done anything wrong here, but I can assure you that many others on other forums have literally tried to assassinate her character when she's simply sought to discuss the scriptures themselves with them. MANY OTHERS. MANY MANY OTHERS. Hopefully, you understand.

 

[phil36]

I've known this poster for at least 10 years, and I can assure you that she's not being disingenuous. She and I have spoken hundreds of times to each other about God and his word, and she simply keeps her nose in the Bible and not in Christian terminology

I think (I could be mistaken) that "one substance" or "consubstantial" is taken from the Nicene Creed which you're already well aware [referring to 4christalone]that I disagree with on one major issue. IF this is what it's referring to, THEN it's referring to the time when Jesus was allegedly "eternally begotten" which is a load of rubbish. Everywhere in scripture, as you and I have previously discussed at length elsewhere, when the word 'begotten" is used in relation to Jesus Christ it is referring to the day in which he was raised from the dead.

And yet the poster says I have no knowledge of this or that..but your own words say something different - cf. above). That's being disingenuous.

You yourself are saying some troubling things in regards to Jesus. Quite alarming really. According to what you have written just above you are summerizing a form of Christological Adoptionism or a form of oneness theology. I can't quite put my finger on it yet (both are heretical).

The OP post itself is very revealing once I reread it a couple of times. but we can come back to that (I know its not your OP, but you do seem to be in agreement).

Unless you would like to clarify, do you hold to orthodox teaching of the Trinity. Your beliefs written above suggest otherwise. It's up to you don't have to. But I am sure there are a few now wondering what on earth you actually do believe in this regard.

 

[Live4Him]

And yet the poster says I have no knowledge of this or that..but your own words say something different - cf. above). That's being disingenuous.

You yourself are saying some troubling things in regards to Jesus. Quite alarming really. According to what you have written just above you are summerizing a form of Christological Adoptionism or a form of oneness theology. I can't quite put my finger on it yet (both are heretical).

The OP post itself is very revealing once I reread it a couple of times. but we can come back to that (I know its not your OP, but you do seem to be in agreement).

Unless you would like to clarify, do you hold to orthodox teaching of the Trinity. Your beliefs written above suggest otherwise. It's up to you don't have to. But I am sure there are a few now wondering what on earth you actually do believe in this regard.

I definitely believe in a Triune Godhead or Trinity. Three distinct "persons" (for lack of a better word), yet one in unity.

As far as my comment regarding Jesus allegedly being "eternally begotten" is concerned, that is a load of rubbish. For starters, the term is self-contradictory in that that which is "eternal" has no beginning (being "begotten"). This does NOT mean that I don't believe that Jesus is eternal because I do believe that. I also believe in Christ's Divinity, if you're questioning that. I'm simply saying that Jesus was begotten on the day in which he was raised from the dead because that is what the scriptures themselves teach. I'll stick with the scriptures over any "creed" of man any day.

 

[phil36]

I definitely believe in a Triune Godhead or Trinity. Three distinct "persons" (for lack of a better word), yet one in unity.

As far as my comment regarding Jesus allegedly being "eternally begotten" is concerned, that is a load of rubbish. For starters, the term is self-contradictory in that that which is "eternal" has no beginning (being "begotten"). This does NOT mean that I don't believe that Jesus is eternal because I do believe that. I also believe in Christ's Divinity, if you're questioning that. I'm simply saying that Jesus was begotten on the day in which he was raised from the dead because that is what the scriptures themselves teach. I'll stick with the scriptures over any "creed" of man any day.

When you say begotten on the day which he was raised. What do you mean by begotten? what does it do, or its effect?

 

[Truth7t7]

When you say begotten on the day which he was raised. What do you mean by begotten? what does it do, or its effect?

Psalm 2:7KJV
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33KJV
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

[phil36]

Psalm 2:7KJV
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33KJV
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Hi Truth7t7,

Thanks for the scripture but it's doesn't answer the question in hand though. What does Begotten mean at the time of His resurrection? What effect will it have on the person hood of Christ (his two natures - fully human and fully God) and his substance as the 2nd person of the Trinity. And how will God apply it.

Anyhow, tea time here. enjoy your day/evening.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi Truth7t7,

Thanks for the scripture but it's doesn't answer the question in hand though. What does Begotten mean at the time of His resurrection? What effect will it have on the person hood of Christ (his two natures - fully human and fully God) and his substance as the 2nd person of the Trinity. And how will God apply it.

Anyhow, tea time here. enjoy your day/evening.

I understand your concern with the thought "Begotten" would suggest that Jesus is a created being of God?

Looking at "Begotten" below, it appears to be used as "Born"

Looking at dictionaries on Begotten, it is showing lineage, Father/Son relationship?

Looking at Philemon, onesimus was his "Spiritual" offspring, his son?

Philemon 1:9-12KJV
9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
11 Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me:
12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:

We are spiritually Begotten of God, Sons and Daughters?

1 John 5:18KJV
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

First Begotten or Born?

Revelation 1:5KJV
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[phil36]

I understand your concern with the thought "Begotten" would suggest that Jesus is a created being of God?

Looking at "Begotten" below, it appears to be used as "Born"

Looking at dictionaries on Begotten, it is showing lineage, Father/Son relationship?

Looking at Philemon, onesimus was his "Spiritual" offspring, his son?

Philemon 1:9-12KJV
9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
11 Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me:
12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:

We are spiritually Begotten of God, Sons and Daughters?

1 John 5:18KJV
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

First Begotten or Born?

Revelation 1:5KJV
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Hi Truth7t7,

Thanks for your thoughtful input, but I think below is where you are sort of heading which doesn't help the denial of eternal generation. which detriments YHWH. The only difference between Adoptionism and the view being espoused is the holding of the Godhead being three persons, co-eternal etc etc. I know the view well as Macarthur himself held the view but he has since renounced it after more careful study of scripture.. he cuts short at calling it 'rank heresy'. lol, which is quite reserved for him lol.

psalm 2:7 messianic heir son of God.

In context the provided text refers to Jesus being the Messianic heir. As Messiah Jesus takes over Davids role as the representative of God's people.

The people as a whole are called the son of God (Exodus 4:22-23; Psalm 80:14-15; Hosea 11:1). The King himself represents and embodies [as ESV] the people (Psalm 89:27.

I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:7)

I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, (2 Samuel 7:14).

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? (Hebrews 1:5).

The book of Hebrews brings all this together showing that Christ indeed is the messianic heir of David (Son of God). As in the Office of King (along with office of priest and prophet).

And here is the main point. This refers to Christs' ''office'' as king, He does this through being the Messianic heir of the Davidic promise.

Anyhow I really must go... have a good evening Truth7t7.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Okay, I wanted to post on this here, asking whether this is correct to point out the LORD (who is Spirit) has a soul, I could have probably use better scriptures I suppose but I think these will do.

The LORD references his own soul here

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul (nephesh) hateth.

Is this one correct, the LORD expresses the same here concerning Jesus Christ (see both my soul and my spirit) there

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul (nephesh) delighteth; I have put my spirit (ruwach) upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

It speaks of His making Jesus soul an offering

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (Jesus); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (nephesh) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And after offering himself for sin is shows here

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Just as it says here

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


See what I mean? I am asking for another reason but I wanted to at least establish that correctly first.

Thanks in advance

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( body)

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( spirit)

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Body filled with a living spirit is a living soul . Christ was born in the flesh , in order to birth a perfect living soul a man filled with Gods spirit , so that that perfect living soul could atone for and appease this demand required by the law of sin and death

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s all Of us but not Jesus living soul when he became a living soul being born in his body of flesh , he never sinned so he doesn’t have to die. Only “the soul that sinneth must die “

we have a perfect soul sacrificed in place of our less than perfect soul , so that we also aren’t in the group “ the soul that sins shall die “

in Christ “ the soul that repents shall
Live “

because he took the other on himself and survived having no sins to hold him on death by the law of transgression.

when Jesus was born in the flesh God became a living soul

 

[4ChristAlone]

Not to be a mediator between you two, but I believe that Phil mentioned "disingenuous" in relation to your understanding of certain terminologies that men use to describe or define Biblical doctrines or teachings. As I've just posted, knowing you for years, I don't believe that you're pretending to know less about such terminologies than you're saying here, and that's what being disingenuous means.

As far as finding error in the scripture is concerned, I know what you meant, but others might misread it. In other words, I know that you weren't suggesting that the scriptures themselves might be in error, but rather that you might have erroneously misapplied one or more of them, and that is why you asked me to fact-check them for you.

Anyhow, I hope that helps to clear up any possible confusion or misunderstanding between you two.

Yes, I gotcha sorry that might have come out wrong, I did not mean it as it might have sounded.

And no, I still don't blame the scriptures for the guilt imposed upon me concerning my own Anthropomorphism

LOL . (just playing) I still dont know what I could have have personally said, or what scriptures I posted that have "made me thus"

And yeah, thank you, you conveyed that correctly concerning me, I really havent the slighest clue on many of these terminologies many men use to stash each of these various ism type doctrines under. But I also have never had the slightest inclination to page through the multitude of them to have them decide things for me. Most of them come out during inquisition like times, and they come across as a bag of many ways to condemn an individual which I cannot find in scripture.

 

[4ChristAlone]

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( body)

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( spirit)

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Body filled with a living spirit is a living soul . Christ was born in the flesh , in order to birth a perfect living soul a man filled with Gods spirit , so that that perfect living soul could atone for and appease this demand required by the law of sin and death

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s all Of us but not Jesus living soul when he became a living soul being born in his body of flesh , he never sinned so he doesn’t have to die. Only “the soul that sinneth must die “

we have a perfect soul sacrificed in place of our less than perfect soul , so that we also aren’t in the group “ the soul that sins shall die “

in Christ “ the soul that repents shall
Live “

because he took the other on himself and survived having no sins to hold him on death by the law of transgression.

when Jesus was born in the flesh God became a living soul

Thanks, the verses I was looking at are posted I think ...on the first page to show precarnated his reference to his soul.

Those are what I am looking at.

 

[4ChristAlone]

I understand your concern with the thought "Begotten" would suggest that Jesus is a created being of God?

Looking at "Begotten" below, it appears to be used as "Born"

Looking at dictionaries on Begotten, it is showing lineage, Father/Son relationship?

Looking at Philemon, onesimus was his "Spiritual" offspring, his son?

Philemon 1:9-12KJV
9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.
10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
11 Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me:
12 Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels:

We are spiritually Begotten of God, Sons and Daughters?

1 John 5:18KJV
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

First Begotten or Born?

Revelation 1:5KJV
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The second psalm is mentioned by the apostles which had to be fulfilled, as noted here

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children,
** in that ** he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son,
** this day ** have I begotten thee.

Next verse shows it too

Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead,
now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise,
I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Agreed, First begotten of the dead

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[4ChristAlone]

Try it this way,

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Jesus speaking to the LORD here

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Acts 13:33 fulfilled)

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead

Here also as his being made high priest is at the same time he was begotten

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

For he were on earth he should not be a priest, so its speaking of when he was raised from the dead. (Hebrews 8:4)

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[pottersclay]

Okay, I wanted to post on this here, asking whether this is correct to point out the LORD (who is Spirit) has a soul, I could have probably use better scriptures I suppose but I think these will do.

The LORD references his own soul here

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul (nephesh) hateth.

Is this one correct, the LORD expresses the same here concerning Jesus Christ (see both my soul and my spirit) there

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul (nephesh) delighteth; I have put my spirit (ruwach) upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

It speaks of His making Jesus soul an offering

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (Jesus); he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (nephesh) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

And after offering himself for sin is shows here

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Just as it says here

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


See what I mean? I am asking for another reason but I wanted to at least establish that correctly first.

Thanks in advance

In the hebrew language many words were used as expression......to show the depth of things.
Could this be one of them?

 

[4ChristAlone]

In the hebrew language many words were used as expression......to show the depth of things.
Could this be one of them?

Which word, and about what depth? Not sure what you are asking about

 

[pottersclay]

Which word, and about what depth? Not sure what you are asking about

When the term soul is used☺️

 

[4ChristAlone]

When the term soul is used☺️

Soul is (Nephesh) in the OT
Soul is (Psychē) in the NT

Just as

Spirit is (Ruwach) in the OT
Spirit is (Pnuema) in the NT

Just start here

In The OT soul is (nephesh)

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls (nephesh) are mine; as the soul (nephesh) of the father, so also the soul (nephesh) of the son is mine: the soul (nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die.

The LORD has a soul (nephesh)

Judges 10:16 And they put away the strange gods from among them, and served the LORD: and his soul (nephesh) was grieved for the misery of Israel.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul (nephesh) delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Jerm 5:9 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul (nephesh) be avenged on such a nation as this?

I had to cut verses in order the post wont go through (too long)

In the NT soul is (psychē) The LORD has a soul (psychē)

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul (psychē) shall have no pleasure in him.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul (psychē) is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Our souls (psychē)

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls (psychē)

Cut for space again

Both spirit (pnuema) and soul (psychē) in one verse

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (pnuema) and soul (psychē) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the OT (the Ruwach) is the Spirit, Here is the Ruwach of God in this verse

Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit (ruwach) of God is?

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits (ruwach) of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Cut for space to post

In the NT (the Pnuema) is the Spirit

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit (pnuema) of God, they are the sons of God.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits (pnuema), and live?
Our spirit (pnuema) and His Spirit (Pnuema)

Romans 8:16 The Spirit (pnuema) itself beareth witness with our spirit (pnuema) that we are the children of God:

spirit (pnuema) and soul (psychē)

1Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (pnuema) and soul (psychē) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 4:26 God is a Spirit (pnuema): and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (pnuema) and in truth.

The Spirit (pnuema) of God and the spirit (pnuema) of man here in one verse

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit (pnuema) of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit (pnuema) of God.

Then here the same in Isaiah 42:1 in the OT which is also quoted in the NT in Mat 12:18 shows both between them

OT Hewbrew

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,
in whom my soul (nephesh ) delighteth; I have put my spirit (ruwach ) upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

NT Greek

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen;
my beloved, in whom my soul (psyche ) is well pleased: I will put my spirit (pneuma) upon him,
and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Not sure what deep thing is here but you can compare both in OY and NT and see how they interchange between the

 

[4ChristAlone]

Sorry I did not say anything in the above I kept removing verses before I could get the post to go through, it was too long.

Not sure what deep thing can be shown, soul seems to mean soul and Spirit spirit showing His and ours in both OT and NT

 

[4ChristAlone]

What on earth is meant by "three several persons in the holy trinity"? Anyone know?

I never heard of such a thing before unless I am misunderstanding in some way

 

[4ChristAlone]

The word Godhead in scripture (three different words)

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; G2305 so that they are without excuse:

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2305&t=KJV

Theiotes G2305 (feminine noun)

Here

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead G2304 is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

2Peter 1:3 According as his divine G2304 power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine G2304 nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2304&t=KJV

Theios G2304 (adjective)

And here

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead G2320 bodily.

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2320&t=KJV

Theotes G2320 (feminine noun)


In the Col 2:9 verse if you click on the word Godhead Theotes G2320 over there, it takes you to the paragraph in question, or just click the synonyms here link below

[View this word in Trench's Synonyms here.]

Then scroll all the way down to the bottom and read that last paragraph there. Or read the whole thing.

Heres a snippet of what is written

"It may be observed, in conclusion, that whether this distinction was intended, as I am fully persuaded it was, by St. Paul or not, it established itself firmly in the later theological language of the Church—the Greek Fathers using never θειότης, but always θεότης, as alone adequately expressing the essential Godhead of the Three several Persons in the Holy Trinity."

I never heard of this before or come across it before, can someone better explain what its speaking it there?