WE are judged by what we do vs. we are saved by faith alone.

[GodMyFortress]

My brother, when we chose to invite Jesus into our heart, not by force than he will produce fruit, we only bear it

John 15
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

The reason I believe it is Jesus say

No branch can bear fruit by itself. Verse 4

You are absolutely right, no branch can bear fruit by itself. All I’m pointing out is that God leaves it up to us if we will bear fruit or not. His grace doesn’t force us to do good works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will give you credit for one thing, you actually believe what Sola Fide teaches.

I would expect all who believe Sola Fide believe it.

No Christian in history before John Calvin wrote about believing eternal security. None.

That only speaks to the very poor understanding of ALL Christians in history, then. Because Jesus was so clear about it.

In John 5:24 Jesus taught that believers possess eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He taught that possessors of eternal life shall never perish.

It couldn't be more clear than that.

So I know that isn’t orthodox Christianity.

Jesus taught it, as I've just shown, so it IS orthodox Christianity.

You basically have to reduce much of the New Testament into a metaphor to make it work.

I'd like you to explain how that could be true. I haven't reduced any of the NT into a metaphor. I take Scripture literally, unless there is obvious metaphors, such as John 15:1-7 or Romans 11.

Denying the literal interpretation of verses.

OK, if there is any clear verse that salvation can be lost, and I am not demanding or even requiesting specific wording but just clear and unambiguous wording, then please share.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then all the verses about receiving salvation/eternal life on the basis of believing without ANY mention of works can be discarded, right?

Matt 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

You can't discard these verse,

I don't. And they don't teach what you seem to think they teach. Of course these are works. No doubt.

Here is the revealing context for what you have quoted;

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

So we see that the sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers, metaphorically speaking.

And Jesus was pointing out the works of believers, who already possess eternal life, per John 5:24. So He wasn't teaching that works save at all.

We cant discard any verse, all we need is to investigate and make conclusion

Which is what I just did by looking at context.

My conclusion is
Salvation by faith and faith is entrust our life to Jesus to the point in it Jesus into our heart

Faith is entrusting our soul to Jesus for saving.

When Jesus undwell in us, the master of love will make us go be loving person, and those verse is the manifestation of love.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Is that mean salvation by work?

No.

John 15

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

No branch can bear fruit of itself

True. Jesus isn't saying we are saved by producing fruit. Note v.3 where Jesus tells the 11 remaining disciples, "you are ALAREADY CLEAN because of the word I have spoken to you". Jesus was affirming that the 11 remaining disciples WERE SAVED.

So everything that follows cannot be about how to be saved. They already were saved.

Jesus was speaking about fellowship with Him. Those who "abide" in Him and He in them, WILL produce fruit.

The believer can only bear fruit when they are in fellowship with the Lord.

Verse 6

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

No abide no fruit ....cast them into fire /hell ...... not go to heaven with less reward
So this verse is serious about hell.

Jesus was using the metaphor about farmers who discard unproductive branches. This isn't even close to being about hell.

Spiritualizing metaphors is a very dangerous thing and leads to very unbiblical doctrines.

The key is "AS a branch". Jesus was comparing believers without fruit to branches without fruit. So, as farmers discard unproductive branches from "service", meaing staying on the tree, believers are discarded from service. There is nothing about being thrown into hell here.

 

[GodMyFortress]

I would expect all who believe Sola Fide believe it.


That only speaks to the very poor understanding of ALL Christians in history, then. Because Jesus was so clear about it.

In John 5:24 Jesus taught that believers possess eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He taught that possessors of eternal life shall never perish.

It couldn't be more clear than that.


Jesus taught it, as I've just shown, so it IS orthodox Christianity.


I'd like you to explain how that could be true. I haven't reduced any of the NT into a metaphor. I take Scripture literally, unless there is obvious metaphors, such as John 15:1-7 or Romans 11.


OK, if there is any clear verse that salvation can be lost, and I am not demanding or even requiesting specific wording but just clear and unambiguous wording, then please share.

Saying Jesus taught Sola Fide doesn’t settle anything. There are far more Christians that don’t believe Sola Fide than do. Since you are a 21st century fallible man that claims Eternal Security is Orthodoxy, you need to find another way demonstrate it is if you want to convince someone you’re right.

As far as the metaphor comment, what is the literal interpretation of James 2:24? What does the words on the page say? You are forced to say it means something else than what it literally says. I can keep going on but we’ll start there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are absolutely right, no branch can bear fruit by itself. All I’m pointing out is that God leaves it up to us if we will bear fruit or not. His grace doesn’t force us to do good works.

Nor does lack of fruit mean going to hell. That would mean salvation is by works, and the Bible is so very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Saying Jesus taught Sola Fide doesn’t settle anything.

I believe what Jesus clearly taught settles EVERYTHING.

There are far more Christians that don’t believe Sola Fide than do.

That's on them, too. They wlll answer for that.

Since you are a 21st century fallible man that claims Eternal Security is Orthodoxy, you need to find another way demonstrate it is if you want to convince someone you’re right.

Do you really mean that citing the very words of Jesus wasn't enough? I certainly do. Why don't you? Your answer is quite puzzling.

Let me quote the 2 verses that are the clearest in proving eternal security.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The red words are in the present tense. Everyone believes in the present tense when they believe.

The blue words indicate the RESULT of believing; they possess eternal life. And "has" is also present tense.

So, from this verse we KNOW that from the very MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life.

Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are what Jesus does for believers, from John 5:24.
The blue words reveal the RESULT of what Jesus does for believers; they shall never perish.

Now, since you disagree with eternal security, please explain both verses and prove that they don't teach eternal security for one who believes in Christ.

As far as the metaphor comment, what is the literal interpretation of James 2:24?[/QUOTE
It is exactly what it is translated.

What does the words on the page say? You are forced to say it means something else than what it literally says. I can keep going on but we’ll start there.

No, I am not forced to say it means something else. What you just seem very unwilling to admit is that James was speaking about being justified in the eyes of others, rather than in the eyes of God, which is what Paul wrote about.

Here are verses that clearly teach that believers are to live lives in light of how others view us.

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

If you think these verses teach something else, please explain clearly.

Thanks.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Nor does lack of fruit mean going to hell. That would mean salvation is by works, and the Bible is so very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Apparently you’ve never read Matthew where it says every tree that doesn’t bear good fruit will be thrown into the fire.

 

[Gardenias]

We are saved by faith, and not by works when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we have not received the Spirit yet.

But after we receive the Spirit then we have to have works to have faith to stay saved.

Many are called but few are chosen.

And some have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And if a person thinks they stand take heed lest you fall for that is when they get relaxed and might not measure up.

And if they do not continue in the goodness of God they shall be cut off.

And awake to righteousness and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.

And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that says the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Which a Spirit led life can abstain from sin for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.

So there is no excuse.

Which means once saved always saved is not true unless a person does what is right.

Jesus said seek God and His righteousness, and if a person does not do righteousness then they are not of God, and awake to righteousness and sin not, so righteousness is an action on the part of the person, which they also try to make it imputed to them without being righteous themselves with action like they try to make faith without action.

It could be they want to live in sin and then say they are still saved which it appeals to people that want to keep sinning and believe they are still saved which the Bible says they have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof which because of their sinning they love to enjoy they deny the Spirit leading them.

Paul said that out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, works, that charity is the greatest.

Charity is greater than faith and it can only be valid is if it is done in works, and faith works by love.

That is why James said if they do not have charity, works, when he points out helping the poor and needy, then their faith is dead which means no faith.

Which a person is saved by works and not faith alone because love is greater than faith.

And Paul says the same thing as James that he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, works, then he is nothing.

And Paul said if anybody preaches God blesses with money and material things to withdraw yourselves from them for the love of money is the root of all evil because it neglects the poor and needy which is not charity, works of love, which some having coveted have erred from the faith same as James saying their faith is dead.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them.

Paul and James says the same thing that their faith is void if they do not have charity.

We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we confess Christ.

And then when we receive the Spirit we have to have charity, works, or our faith is dead.

For a person is justified by works, and not faith alone when they receive the Spirit.

You have said it all and put it so simply that it debunks all the ppl who follow a man made creed! There is no Baptist, Methodist,Protestant, Pentecostal, ECT.ect.....Only those who follow Jesus and his word!
Thank you!

 

[Gardenias]

Actually, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they HAVE the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11-
13 He (Cornelius) told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

This shows that WHEN Cornelius and household believed, they received the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?


Believers receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe.

Verse 15 states as it did us at the beginning! That means an outward sign of tongues a sign for empowerment! Jesus said to his disciples to tarry here until you receive the Holy Ghost. Then he breathed upon them,opening them up as a conduit for the Holy Ghost! Yes we receive and believe the triune Godhead as a whole at rebirth......but THERE IS MORE!

 

[GodMyFortress]

I believe what Jesus clearly taught settles EVERYTHING.


That's on them, too. They wlll answer for that.


Do you really mean that citing the very words of Jesus wasn't enough? I certainly do. Why don't you? Your answer is quite puzzling.

Let me quote the 2 verses that are the clearest in proving eternal security.

John 5:24- “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The red words are in the present tense. Everyone believes in the present tense when they believe.

The blue words indicate the RESULT of believing; they possess eternal life. And "has" is also present tense.

So, from this verse we KNOW that from the very MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life.

Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are what Jesus does for believers, from John 5:24.
The blue words reveal the RESULT of what Jesus does for believers; they shall never perish.

Now, since you disagree with eternal security, please explain both verses and prove that they don't teach eternal security for one who believes in Christ.

So you don’t believe the rest of the Bible, only what Jesus said in the Gospels? What James said came from God.

I’ll deal with the verses you mentioned;
John 5:24
What is it that Jesus tells us to believe in the Gospels? Aside from faith which we all agree about...

John3:4-5 & Mark 16:16 tell us we need baptism for salvation.

Matt 19:16-17 tell us we need to keep Jesus’s commandments

John 6:53-54 tells us we need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ or we have no life in us.

But like I said before you are forced to reduce all those things to a metaphor that means something else and not believe the words on the page as Jesus spoke them because you are boxed in because of all your “Alone” theologies.

I’ll get to the other one but let’s deal with this first.

 

[Gardenias]

I will give you credit for one thing, you actually believe what Sola Fide teaches.

No Christian in history before John Calvin wrote about believing eternal security. None. So I know that isn’t orthodox Christianity. You basically have to reduce much of the New Testament into a metaphor to make it work. Denying the literal interpretation of verses.

Calvin will be answering to God for a lot of souls who relied on what he said instead of searching out the truth of the word for themselves under the direction of the Holy Spirit!

 

[MattforJesus]

Some people do not understand what predestination of the saints mean.

It does not mean that Gods chooses who will be saved and not saved without their choice in the matter.

If that is the case then God's kingdom is not true love but robotic love for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative, and God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice in the matter seeing no other alternative.

The Bible says God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

And the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.

These were future events but they were considered to be in the beginning for God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened.

And the Word of God was in the beginning although Jesus did not come until the future for the Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created.

Predestination of the saints means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation to the world before He laid down the foundation of the world so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning but this salvation is to whoever chooses this salvation.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

All our righteousness is as filthy rags.

There is none that does good, no, not one.

If you break the least of the law you broke it all.

God is no respecter of persons for all who work righteousness is accepted with Him.

If you think you are something when you are nothing you deceive yourself.

Everybody is the same in the eyes of God being a sinner so why would God choose some to be saved and not other people to be saved.

God gave us a choice because His kingdom is true love and not robotic love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice.

Jesus lights every person born in to this world which means everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved and the darkness does not comprehend it for no matter the deception the light of Jesus can reach them.

Many are called but few are chosen.

We did not choose God but He chose us.

Some have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to open it for God's kingdom is love, but they would of not of got to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life for the flesh cannot do it on it's own for there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.

Even though God intervened in our life to get us to the truth we still have to make the choice to go through the door of truth because God's kingdom is love.

And this door of truth is whether they allow the Spirit to lead them or not, for if led by the Spirit they will act like Christ, and if not they will operate by the flesh and hang unto sin and believe they are still saved.

But even led by the Spirit we still have the choice to sin, and if we do sin we have to repent and move forward in the Spirit.

Which many people do not allow not allow the Spirit to lead them for not everyone that says Lord Lord will dwell with Jesus for they were workers of iniquity.

For if a person does not allow the Spirit to lead them then they are operating in the flesh in which they are not truly repenting for they will do the things of the flesh.

Once saved always saved causes people to think that sin does not affect their relationship with God and because of that many hold un to sin and think they are alright with God and have not walked through the door of truth.

Many are called but few are chosen because not all people who claim Christ allow the Spirit to lead them.

 

[GodMyFortress]

Some people do not understand what predestination of the saints mean.

It does not mean that Gods chooses who will be saved and not saved without their choice in the matter.

If that is the case then God's kingdom is not true love but robotic love for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative, and God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice in the matter seeing no other alternative.

The Bible says God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

And the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.

These were future events but they were considered to be in the beginning for God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened.

And the Word of God was in the beginning although Jesus did not come until the future for the Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created.

Predestination of the saints means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation to the world before He laid down the foundation of the world so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning but this salvation is to whoever chooses this salvation.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

All our righteousness is as filthy rags.

There is none that does good, no, not one.

If you break the least of the law you broke it all.

God is no respecter of persons for all who work righteousness is accepted with Him.

If you think you are something when you are nothing you deceive yourself.

Everybody is the same in the eyes of God being a sinner so why would God choose some to be saved and not other people to be saved.

God gave us a choice because His kingdom is true love and not robotic love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice.

Jesus lights every person born in to this world which means everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved and the darkness does not comprehend it for no matter the deception the light of Jesus can reach them.

Many are called but few are chosen.

We did not choose God but He chose us.

Some have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to open it for God's kingdom is love, but they would of not of got to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life for the flesh cannot do it on it's own for there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.

Even though God intervened in our life to get us to the truth we still have to make the choice to go through the door of truth because God's kingdom is love.

And this door of truth is whether they allow the Spirit to lead them or not, for if led by the Spirit they will act like Christ, and if not they will operate by the flesh and hang unto sin and believe they are still saved.

But even led by the Spirit we still have the choice to sin, and if we do sin we have to repent and move forward in the Spirit.

Which many people do not allow not allow the Spirit to lead them for not everyone that says Lord Lord will dwell with Jesus for they were workers of iniquity.

For if a person does not allow the Spirit to lead them then they are operating in the flesh in which they are not truly repenting for they will do the things of the flesh.

Once saved always saved causes people to think that sin does not affect their relationship with God and because of that many hold un to sin and think they are alright with God and have not walked through the door of truth.

Many are called but few are chosen because not all people who claim Christ allow the Spirit to lead them.

Predestination is very misunderstood but double predestination (what Calvinists believe) is downright ridiculous. Someone calling themselves a Christian and at the same time believing that God causes people to go to hell is an affront to God.

“God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.”
John Calvin
Institutes, III, 23, 1.

 

[Ogom]

Calvin will be answering to God for a lot of souls who relied on what he said instead of searching out the truth of the word for themselves under the direction of the Holy Spirit!

Psalms 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.


Jeremiah 17:5 - Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Faith cause obey, like what happen to Noah

It is incorrect to say that faith causes obedience. If that were true, all believers would always obey. And we all know they don't. Even the ones in the Bible.

Believers are commanded to obey.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nor does lack of fruit mean going to hell. That would mean salvation is by works, and the Bible is so very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Apparently you’ve never read Matthew where it says every tree that doesn’t bear good fruit will be thrown into the fire.

I certainly have read it. Why do you assume that "fire" here means hell? There's no reason to.

What do you do with 1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

In v.13 the red words aren't speaking about hell, but God's evaluation of believers.

In v.14 the blue words give the result of passing the evaluation: eternal reward.

In v.15 the green words describes failing the evaluation: suffer loss (refers back to reward. They lose reward).

But notice what follows the failure; "yet will be saved". Couldn't be any clearer.

Purple words gives further description; "only as one escaping through the flames". This is another way to describe failing God's evaluation but "escaping through the flames (of evaluation).

If you disagree, please address the points that you disagree with and provide a reasonable and rational explanation for what the verses actually teach.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Verse 15 states as it did us at the beginning! That means an outward sign of tongues a sign for empowerment! Jesus said to his disciples to tarry here until you receive the Holy Ghost. Then he breathed upon them,opening them up as a conduit for the Holy Ghost! Yes we receive and believe the triune Godhead as a whole at rebirth......but THERE IS MORE!

Of course! Faith in Christ, and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, being born again is just the beginning!

Just like a human baby being born, that's just the beginning. Now is the journey of faith that should result in spiritual growth to maturity. Many do not make it. iow, they just don't "grow up".

1 Peter 2:2 - Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Spiritual growth is not a given, but a potential. Subjunctive mood here. The mood of possibility.

Spiritual growth is not guaranteed.

 

[GodMyFortress]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nor does lack of fruit mean going to hell. That would mean salvation is by works, and the Bible is so very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

I certainly have read it. Why do you assume that "fire" here means hell? There's no reason to.

What do you do with 1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

In v.13 the red words aren't speaking about hell, but God's evaluation of believers.

In v.14 the blue words give the result of passing the evaluation: eternal reward.

In v.15 the green words describes failing the evaluation: suffer loss (refers back to reward. They lose reward).

But notice what follows the failure; "yet will be saved". Couldn't be any clearer.

Purple words gives further description; "only as one escaping through the flames". This is another way to describe failing God's evaluation but "escaping through the flames (of evaluation).

If you disagree, please address the points that you disagree with and provide a reasonable and rational explanation for what the verses actually teach.

Thanks.

That verse in 1 Corinthians is talking about judging the quality of works to determine your reward. In that verse there are at least something to judge.

In complete contrast to 1 Corinthians, there are no good fruits on that tree to judge for rewards in Matthew. The fire in Matthew is talking about hell, because you will not reward someone with eternal life in heaven for only bearing bad fruit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe what Jesus clearly taught settles EVERYTHING.

So you don’t believe the rest of the Bible, only what Jesus said in the Gospels? What James said came from God.

This response appears to be an attempt to pit Jesus against "the rest of the Bible" and "James". Good grief.

I’ll deal with the verses you mentioned;
John 5:24
What is it that Jesus tells us to believe in the Gospels? Aside from faith which we all agree about...

It's clear enough for anyone to understand.

John3:4-5 & Mark 16:16 tell us we need baptism for salvation.

Uh, no, neither does.

John 3-
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

This is about being born again, not being baptized.

Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

First, Mark 16:9-20 is NOT in the "earliest and most reliable transcripts", not that none of it is true, but it isn't inspired writings.

And here, it should be obvious, when compared with the rest of Scripture, that "baptism" here refers to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", which isn't water baptism. It refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit. Read Acts 10 and 11 regarding Cornelius and you'll see.

Matt 19:16-17 tell us we need to keep Jesus’s commandments

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Those who read the rest of the discussion know that Jesus wasn't giving him the gospel, but setting him up for the most important issue. The man claimed to have kept the whole law from his youth. Yet, Jesus pointed out to him his love of his wealth, which he didn't want to give up, which demonstrated that he failed at the very first commandment!

This man wasn't ready for the gospel. He needed to know that he couldn't keep the law.

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

John 6:53-54 tells us we need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ or we have no life in us.

I sure hope you aren't taking this literally!! Jesus used metaphors to make a point. To "eat" and "drink" is symbolic of faith in His work on the cross, and is the basis for our taking communion (the Lord's Table) by drinking and eating.

Do you find anywhere in John 6 about being saved by literal eating/drinking?

But, you do find these verses:

6:29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

But like I said before you are forced to reduce all those things to a metaphor that means something else

Please point out the exact words that I've supposedly "reduced to a metaphor". I haven't.

and not believe the words on the page as Jesus spoke them because you are boxed in because of all your “Alone” theologies.

I'm not "boxed in". It's your theology that is unbiblical that has boxed you in so far that it has blinded you to the actual truth of Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you assume that "fire" here means hell? There's no reason to.

What do you do with 1 Cor 3-:12-15?

That verse in 1 Corinthians is talking about judging the quality of works to determine your reward. In that verse there are at least something to judge.

Why doesn't complete lack of works count as failing? Of course it does!

In complete contrast to 1 Corinthians, there are no good fruits on that tree to judge for rewards in Matthew. The fire in Matthew is talking about hell, because you will not reward someone with eternal life in heaven for only bearing bad fruit.

You then need to explain very clearly and thoroughly that if one who has believed ends up in hell,

1. explain how a child of God becomes an UN-child.
2. explain how the new birth is UN-done.
3. explain how the guaranteed indwelling of the Holy Spirit ain't so guaranteed.
4. explain how being a new creature gets UN-done.