WE are judged by what we do vs. we are saved by faith alone.
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There is no confusion for those who believe all scripture. They accept the scripture telling them God forgives any and every sin they repent of. They accept that God tells them to obey if they love Him, and love is of God. There is absolutely no confusion in accepting scripture.
Confusion only happens when the fleshly mind starts twisting on scripture.
Confusion only happens when the fleshly mind starts twisting on scripture.
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FreeGrace2 said: He
1. explain how a child of God becomes an UN-child.
2. explain how the new birth is UN-done.
3. explain how the guaranteed indwelling of the Holy Spirit ain't so guaranteed.
4. explain how being a new creature gets UN-done.
Nope. This isn't an explanation at all.
OK, let's forget an "explanation" since you don't have one.
Instead, please share the verses that clearly teach that a believer can "undo" any of the 4 points above.
OK. Now you get to share any verse that teaches that our salvation is based on what we promise to God.
This should be quite interesting; to see what you come up with.
I'm sure you think there are verses or at least 1 verse that teaches this.
So, would you be so kind as to quote such verses?
So, I'm counting on you to provide 6 verses, one for each of your claims.
My claim is that you don't have any.
And you have the free will to prove me wrong, if you can provide the 6 verses that back up your claim.
1. explain how a child of God becomes an UN-child.
2. explain how the new birth is UN-done.
3. explain how the guaranteed indwelling of the Holy Spirit ain't so guaranteed.
4. explain how being a new creature gets UN-done.
Nope. This isn't an explanation at all.
OK, let's forget an "explanation" since you don't have one.
Instead, please share the verses that clearly teach that a believer can "undo" any of the 4 points above.
OK. Now you get to share any verse that teaches that our salvation is based on what we promise to God.
This should be quite interesting; to see what you come up with.
I'm sure you think there are verses or at least 1 verse that teaches this.
So, would you be so kind as to quote such verses?
So, I'm counting on you to provide 6 verses, one for each of your claims.
My claim is that you don't have any.
And you have the free will to prove me wrong, if you can provide the 6 verses that back up your claim.
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Sad. Because your claim is contrary to what Jesus said very clearly.
In John 5:24 He said those who believe possess (HAVE) eternal life.
In John 10:28 He said He gives them (believers) eternal life and they shall NEVER PERISH.
So you are in disagreement with the Savior.
It is clear: once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Ever. No never. Ain't gonna happen.
But, since you seem convinced otherwise, could you please share any verse that clearly and plainly teaches that salvation can be lost?
Note that I'm not asking for specific words or wording. I am asking for the clear teaching about losing salvation.
Thanks.
In John 5:24 He said those who believe possess (HAVE) eternal life.
In John 10:28 He said He gives them (believers) eternal life and they shall NEVER PERISH.
So you are in disagreement with the Savior.
It is clear: once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Ever. No never. Ain't gonna happen.
But, since you seem convinced otherwise, could you please share any verse that clearly and plainly teaches that salvation can be lost?
Note that I'm not asking for specific words or wording. I am asking for the clear teaching about losing salvation.
Thanks.
Praise The LORD For HIS WORD Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Instead of "doctrines of church fathers, Lutheranism, Calvinism, etc, etc, etc."
Amen?:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Be Blessed!
Instead of "doctrines of church fathers, Lutheranism, Calvinism, etc, etc, etc."
Amen?:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Be Blessed!
I would agree with you--eternal security, once faith in Christ truly results in spiritual regeneration, or the New Birth. Often, the problem is that people do receive the Spirit and knowledge of Christ, affirm him, but don't become spiritually regenerated. They embrace knowledge and power, without sacrificing the Self life.
And so, Paul called upon Christians to "confirm" their Salvation. Hence, we have all of this disagreement over whether people can stay saved or not, because we may not know who was *truly* saved or not.
But beyond that, we limit God's mercy strictly to this life. There are Christian backsliders who "appear" to have given up their faith completely, and live that way. But in the next life, grace may cover their backsliding with the understanding that they had been deceived and perhaps crushed and rendered blind by some tragedy.
God is merciful. I have talked with friends who used to be Christian and now swear for paganism, and yet at more thoughtful, private moments confess they still believe. They just don't believe they can live up to Christian standards anymore, and don't want to be a hypocrite. In other words, they've lost confidence more than they've lost faith.
And so, Paul called upon Christians to "confirm" their Salvation. Hence, we have all of this disagreement over whether people can stay saved or not, because we may not know who was *truly* saved or not.
But beyond that, we limit God's mercy strictly to this life. There are Christian backsliders who "appear" to have given up their faith completely, and live that way. But in the next life, grace may cover their backsliding with the understanding that they had been deceived and perhaps crushed and rendered blind by some tragedy.
God is merciful. I have talked with friends who used to be Christian and now swear for paganism, and yet at more thoughtful, private moments confess they still believe. They just don't believe they can live up to Christian standards anymore, and don't want to be a hypocrite. In other words, they've lost confidence more than they've lost faith.
It wouldn't do any good Free,you are set to your beliefs!
I will stand b4 the judgment seat of Jesus,if I continue to surrender my life into his and the Father's will.
I believe in allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth,not a doctrine of man.
If at anytime when I was out WILLFULLY sinning,drinking,drugs,random sex ect.and had died in that condition then I would face God's judgment!
There would be no covering of Jesus blood to protect me,for he is pure and holy !
The word is our road map and the Spirit is our flash light.
We must submit and be transformed into his likeness by these!
I will stand b4 the judgment seat of Jesus,if I continue to surrender my life into his and the Father's will.
I believe in allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me the truth,not a doctrine of man.
If at anytime when I was out WILLFULLY sinning,drinking,drugs,random sex ect.and had died in that condition then I would face God's judgment!
There would be no covering of Jesus blood to protect me,for he is pure and holy !
The word is our road map and the Spirit is our flash light.
We must submit and be transformed into his likeness by these!
Here’s the metaphors:
Verse:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Your response:
This is about being born again, not being baptized.
My response:
You surprised me here. You actually got part of it right but you completely ignored the part about being born of water. Every early Christian source we have that talks about this verse from the early church agreed this was talking about baptism. Even Luther agreed. I want to see if you twist this into some unknown water Jesus never talked about more important than baptism.
Verse:
Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Your response:
First, Mark 16:9-20 is NOT in the "earliest and most reliable transcripts", not that none of it is true, but it isn't inspired writings.
And here, it should be obvious, when compared with the rest of Scripture, that "baptism" here refers to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", which isn't water baptism. It refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit. Read Acts 10 and 11 regarding Cornelius and you'll see.
My response:
This is the worst. You start off degrading the Gospel of Mark as if it’s not as inspired as all the other books of the Bible. Then you give us the metaphor. You took a simple verse and added “of the Holy Spirit” to baptism. That is not what it says.
Verse:
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Your response:
Those who read the rest of the discussion know that Jesus wasn't giving him the gospel, but setting him up for the most important issue. The man claimed to have kept the whole law from his youth. Yet, Jesus pointed out to him his love of his wealth, which he didn't want to give up, which demonstrated that he failed at the very first commandment!
This man wasn't ready for the gospel. He needed to know that he couldn't keep the law.
My response:
There’s the metaphor, according to you, Jesus isn’t actually going to giving him the real answer to the question. Apparently Jesus won’t answer legitimate questions about eternal life. All Jesus had to do was say “just believe in me”, but he didn’t do that. So you evade what the verse actually says.
Verse:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Your response:
This is about being born again, not being baptized.
My response:
You surprised me here. You actually got part of it right but you completely ignored the part about being born of water. Every early Christian source we have that talks about this verse from the early church agreed this was talking about baptism. Even Luther agreed. I want to see if you twist this into some unknown water Jesus never talked about more important than baptism.
Verse:
Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Your response:
First, Mark 16:9-20 is NOT in the "earliest and most reliable transcripts", not that none of it is true, but it isn't inspired writings.
And here, it should be obvious, when compared with the rest of Scripture, that "baptism" here refers to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", which isn't water baptism. It refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit. Read Acts 10 and 11 regarding Cornelius and you'll see.
My response:
This is the worst. You start off degrading the Gospel of Mark as if it’s not as inspired as all the other books of the Bible. Then you give us the metaphor. You took a simple verse and added “of the Holy Spirit” to baptism. That is not what it says.
Verse:
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Your response:
Those who read the rest of the discussion know that Jesus wasn't giving him the gospel, but setting him up for the most important issue. The man claimed to have kept the whole law from his youth. Yet, Jesus pointed out to him his love of his wealth, which he didn't want to give up, which demonstrated that he failed at the very first commandment!
This man wasn't ready for the gospel. He needed to know that he couldn't keep the law.
My response:
There’s the metaphor, according to you, Jesus isn’t actually going to giving him the real answer to the question. Apparently Jesus won’t answer legitimate questions about eternal life. All Jesus had to do was say “just believe in me”, but he didn’t do that. So you evade what the verse actually says.
I’ve talked with you for awhile now. But now that I know you are the kind of man that calls the Gospel of Mark less reliable than the other Gospels because it’s not the earliest, you’re not worth talking to anymore. People that think like that are lost. You even went as far as to say it wasn’t inspired.
Sad response! By failing to provide ANY verse that supports any of your claims, you have proven that you don't have any. These forums are read by many who never post. They read them for information. And you botched an opportunity to prove your claims or at least provide evidence for your claims.
As for your conclusion about my being "set in my beliefs", that's just an erroneous judgment, and the Bible commands believers to NOT judge others.
I have provided verses for what I believe and they SAY what I believe. You had an opportunity to show the thread that I am wrong, but you failed to even try.
You are demonstrating your lack of understanding the Word.
You've not shown any of this yet.
You would, certainly. But not loss of salvation, as you assume. Even presume. You would face God's discipline, which is painful according to Heb 12:11.
Just who do you think Jesus died for then? No man is pure and holy. So if your statement above is true, then He could NOT have died for anyone. Don't you see your error here?
No, you are confused. The Bible, God's Word is our "road map". And the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, who leads us into Truth.
To grow up spiritually, this is true. But submission is a human effort and is NOT part of salvation.
I believe what Eph 2:8,9 says.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this (salvation) is not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Works have NO PART in our salvation.
And you have no verses that teach what you believe, or you would have provided some.
As for your conclusion about my being "set in my beliefs", that's just an erroneous judgment, and the Bible commands believers to NOT judge others.
I have provided verses for what I believe and they SAY what I believe. You had an opportunity to show the thread that I am wrong, but you failed to even try.
You are demonstrating your lack of understanding the Word.
You've not shown any of this yet.
You would, certainly. But not loss of salvation, as you assume. Even presume. You would face God's discipline, which is painful according to Heb 12:11.
Just who do you think Jesus died for then? No man is pure and holy. So if your statement above is true, then He could NOT have died for anyone. Don't you see your error here?
No, you are confused. The Bible, God's Word is our "road map". And the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, who leads us into Truth.
To grow up spiritually, this is true. But submission is a human effort and is NOT part of salvation.
I believe what Eph 2:8,9 says.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this (salvation) is not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Works have NO PART in our salvation.
And you have no verses that teach what you believe, or you would have provided some.
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You have just demonstrated that you know nothing about the meaning of metaphors. Your bolding of the words "born of water and Spirit" prove what I said. The verse is about being born again. Not baptism. Being "born of water" refers to Jesus' baptism by John, and being "born of the Spirit" refers to our new birth.
So I created no metaphors.
Jesus' water baptism was an IDENTIFICATION with His Father's plan. All water baptisms are symbols of identification.
So I created no metaphors.
Jesus' water baptism was an IDENTIFICATION with His Father's plan. All water baptisms are symbols of identification.
You know, this is just as well. You just made ANOTHER GROSS ERROR. You claimed (falsely) that I "call the Gospel of Mark less reliable than the other Gospels because it's not the earliest".
I NEVER said that. Go back and actually read carefully what I posted. I pointed out what SCHOLARS (do you know what that means?) said about v.9-20. Not the entire gospel as you have insinuated.
So neither I nor the SCHOLARS have called Mark less reliable. I also NEVER said it was the earliest gospel. Apparently you don't read very carefully.
I SAID what the SCHOLARS said. The manuscripts in Greek that were the earliest and most reliable (from which Greek scholars make their translations from) didn't include v.9-20.
But since my words are apparently so difficult for you to follow and understand, it is just as well that you don't respond back to me.
So you are now judging me as unsaved. Are you aware of the forum rules? Either not, or maybe you don't care about them. But it's against the rules to suggest to another that they aren't saved.
I never said Mark was uninspired. I noted that v.9-20 weren't in the earliest manuscripts. Apparently you haven't figured it out yet that those verse were ADDED LATER.
Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would add more later on than what was originally written? If you do, that's even worse than what you've demonstrated thus far.
I NEVER said that. Go back and actually read carefully what I posted. I pointed out what SCHOLARS (do you know what that means?) said about v.9-20. Not the entire gospel as you have insinuated.
So neither I nor the SCHOLARS have called Mark less reliable. I also NEVER said it was the earliest gospel. Apparently you don't read very carefully.
I SAID what the SCHOLARS said. The manuscripts in Greek that were the earliest and most reliable (from which Greek scholars make their translations from) didn't include v.9-20.
But since my words are apparently so difficult for you to follow and understand, it is just as well that you don't respond back to me.
So you are now judging me as unsaved. Are you aware of the forum rules? Either not, or maybe you don't care about them. But it's against the rules to suggest to another that they aren't saved.
I never said Mark was uninspired. I noted that v.9-20 weren't in the earliest manuscripts. Apparently you haven't figured it out yet that those verse were ADDED LATER.
Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit would add more later on than what was originally written? If you do, that's even worse than what you've demonstrated thus far.
For GodMyFortress:
I'd like to give you a bit of friendly advise. When posting to other posters, please read carefully before you fire off your posts. This will help your avoid embarrassment like the errors you made in responding to my posts.
You're welcome.
I'd like to give you a bit of friendly advise. When posting to other posters, please read carefully before you fire off your posts. This will help your avoid embarrassment like the errors you made in responding to my posts.
You're welcome.