50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

randyk · May 26, 2021

I was asked for the most prominent source. I have *many sources* proving my position. 2 Thes 2 is just the most prominent one that comes to mind. Equally critical is Dan 7, from which emerges the prophecy of the "Son of Man," who comes from heaven to destroy the Antichrist. This is the basis for NT eschatology. Jesus himself used the name "Son of Man" as applying to his eschatological role. That's how important that postribulation Scripture is in this argument!

I've found that Darby's Dispensatoinalism likes to divide up Christian and Jewish histories, separating them at a supposed Pretrib Rapture. And so, they would take Dan 7, and apply it in a "Jewish sense," as if it doesn't apply to the Church. I find that wrong-headed. If we do that, what eschatology do we, as Christians, have left? Not much.

randyk · May 26, 2021

VCO said:

Just to clarify, I did not at all deny Jewish Salvation at the Coming of Christ, or even presently. There is, at present, a Christian remnant, signaling the future for Israel in the Millennium, at the Coming of Christ.

So what word of Scripture am I denying? None! And so, you misrepresent and slander me. That's sad.

Some Scriptures are obviously interpreted symbolically because in context symbols are given. And so, to interpret the Bible properly, we must give symbolic interpretations.

Such is the case in Rev7 with the 144K. The fact that tribes are given, which can no longer be determined, indicates this is symbolic of *all Israel,* ie Jewish Israel. How you conclude that this is "denying Scripture" is beyond me?

Ahwatukee · May 26, 2021

randyk said:

God has chosen these 144,000 out of Israel as believers in Jesus as the Messiah. Remember what God said regarding the following:

==================================================
I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”a?

4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b

5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
=======================================================================

Just as God reserved for himself 7000 who did not bow the knee to Baal, so also has He reserved for himself 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel, who recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

That is quite a fantastic stretch there! And a well known false teaching as well. God's knows who belongs to what tribe. There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to seek out a symbolic meaning regarding Israel nor the number of 144,000. In further support of this referring to the literal number of 144,000, you have the following group mentioned as those in white robes which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles, many of whom will become the great tribulation saints. Neither of these groups are the church, which will have already been removed from the earth.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who these in white robes are an where they came from, infers that this is not the church, but a new group.

So, we have one group identified as being 144,000 in number. And we have the other group identified as a large number which no man can count. That in itself should tell the reader that God is speaking literally.

Making the number 144,000 not a literal number and not really Israel, allows you and others to interpret them to be whomever you want, which is exactly what they have done.

By the way, who said that the 144,000 suddenly become converted? In any case, it is God who has appointed them for that time period. The fact that Rev.14 states that "these are those who have not defiled themselves with woman and no lie was found in their mouths", tells you that it is not a quick conversion.

Ahwatukee · May 26, 2021

randyk said:

When those men interpret the word of God and scripture doesn't support what they are claiming, then it is false. We need to stick with the word of God. The reason why we are seeing all of these false teachings is due to the following prophecy:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

You can't believe in Darby's teachings without knowing it if you can demonstrate from scriptures to back up your claim. Darby didn't write the scriptures. We've seen this all before. You are not the first person to come on here and accuse of following the teachings of these people. What you are doing is a way to attempt to circumvent the truth. Just like when I gave you the answer to the errors made regarding 2 Thess.2 regarding our being gathered vs. the day of the Lord, but because you have adopted the teachings of men, you rejected the God-given truth.

"It's not taught does not equal it is not true."

The gathering of the church is indeed found in Revelation, as well as the abomination, but they are masked. So, when someone whom the Lord has revealed this information to shares it with others, it is rejected. The information doesn't fit with the teachings of men that have been adopted as God's word.

When I read 2 Thess.2, I was not satisfied with the teachings and so I was determined to find out the truth from the context. As I told you in my original post, the error stems from not recognizing Paul's change from:

(V.1) The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him

Vs.

(V.2) The Day of the Lord

These two events are closely linked, with the gathering of the church ushering in The Day of the Lord, which is the time period of God's wrath. There were those in Thessalonica teaching that 'The Day of the Lord' had already come.' And so their concern was that they had missed being gathered to meet the Lord in the air, which is why Paul starts off with that. They were concerned that since they had missed being gathered in the air to meet the Lord, that they were now going to be caught in the time of God's wrath.

First, the word of God does not teach a post tribulation gathering of the church. It has falsely been interpreted by people as such because they misinterpret other related scriptures. And second, we cannot consider a post tribulation gathering of the church, because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. It would go against the prophecy in Isaiah:

"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5

A post tribulation gathering of the living church denies the punishment that Christ endured and infers that we have no peace with God through said punishment.

I do not have a problem, as I do not agree with those pretribbers that the church will be on the earth during the tribulation period, which is just another name for the time of God's wrath and also referred to as "the hour of trial."

Well, I've studied on end-time events, including a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments for many years. I live in the book of Revelation and all books and scriptures. And that time period is going to be unprecedented. This is supported in Matt.24:21 which says:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved."

With the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the plagues of the two witnesses and the reign of the beast and the works of the false prophet, it will be an unprecedented time. The wars that have taken place in history will pale in comparison. When that second seal is opened, peace will be taken from the entire earth so that people kill each other. Then you have a world-wide famine. The the results of the fourth seal will be a fourth of the earth's population killed within a short period of time. A third of the earth and trees will be burned up! How many fatalities will result from that? A third of the creatures in the ocean are going to be killed and a third of the ships will be destroyed. Many people will die from drinking contaminated water, demonic beings resembling locusts will sting people for five months and won't be able to die. Only the 144,000 will be excluded from that trumpet judgment. After that, four fallen angels and their demonic army will kill a third of the earth's population, that is, whatever is left from the the pervious fatalities. These events will be like nothing the world has ever seen. But thanks be to God that those who are in Christ will not be on the earth to suffer it.

If I seem adamant about what I am telling you, it is because I'm just tired of all of the false teachings on Revelation and end-time events in general. Believing and teaching others that believers are going to go through God's wrath is contrary to what Christ accomplished on our behalf.

Runningman · May 26, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Post-trib is the most pessimistic view of eschatology characterized by the church enduring tribulation and persecution. You think our ears are itching to embrace persecution and possibly martyrdom? LOL!

However, it doesn't matter because post-trib is what the Bible teaches. The pre-trib rapture is no where to be found in scripture.

Pre-trib is an itching ears doctrine because it preaches the easy way and escapism from great tribulation and persecution.

You have seen enough red flags. I don't know why you insist on preaching pre-trib after having been shown the truth. I couldn't in good conscience accept pre-trib, but at least it gives us something to discuss.

Trust me, if the Bible taught a pre-trib I would be on board with it. I have no interest in anything other than adhering to the Biblical truths. Fact is, the Bible contradicts the pre-trib rapture repeatedly.

For the record, post-tribbers do not teach that the church is the object of God's wrath. There are numerous Biblical examples of Gods wrath coming down with clear instructions to the righteous to get out of the way. That's what we'll do!

Ahwatukee · May 27, 2021

Runningman said:

Well, that's funny, because I found in scripture the gathering of the church to take place prior to God's wrath.

Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her, have no idea of what they are talking about. They come in with partial teachings on the subject and dishonor Christ by not recognizing that He took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of all believers.

Please produce for me the red flags that you are claiming.

Not one person has yet to shown me scriptural proof of the church being gathered after God's wrath and when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Believe me, my concern is to know the truth, whatever that me lead to. I am not one of those who adopts the teachings of men and then stubbornly contends for it. If someone gave me solid proof, I would weight it out. However, postribbers cannot get rid of the basic principle that Christ took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. That's just an issue that cannot be swept under the run or ignored, which is what the belief in post tribulation does. I wrote it in the previous post and I will post it again:

"But he (Jesus) was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

Now, either God's wrath that Jesus suffered brought us peace with God or it didn't. Which is it? And if the punishment that He endured brought us peace with God, then we cannot and will not be subject to His wrath, because Jesus already satisfied it. These are important points, which are being ignored.

Well, you'd better get on board then, because our being gathered before God's wrath begins is what the scriptures teach.

This brings me back to what I have already posted many times in that, 1) The church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath and 2) anyone who is on the earth during the time of God's wrath will experience it. Scripture even shows that the great tribulation saints will be exposed to it.

"‘Never again will they hunger;

never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat.

Never again will they hunger = is in reference to the opening of the third seal which results in world-wide famine, as well as the other plagues of wrath that will cause severe food shortages

Never again will they thirst = is in reference to the third trumpet when a third of the earth's fresh water is contaminated where many people die from drinking it. And is in reference to the third bowl judgment where all of the fresh water is turned into literal blood.

The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat = is in reference to the fourth angel where he pours his bowl out on the sun giving it power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, searing them.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are judgments for those who have rejected Christ and who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature, the arrogant, the haughty, the prideful. Where the believer in Christ was credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. We will not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. The church isn't even mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath.

The post tribulation belief stems from three main errors:

1) Not understanding or recognizing that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Because of this, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. (Romans 5:9, 1 Thess.1:10)

2) Not recognizing the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two individual events and which take place at different times.

3) Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

===============================================================================================
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
==============================================================================================

Some have tried to circumvent the above scriptures to say that Paul was speaking about the wrath at the great white throne judgment. However, believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any wrath, period!

Those who believe that the Lord is going to gather His church prior to His wrath, are looking for the imminent appearing of the Lord.

Those who believe in that Lord is going to put his church through his wrath and gather them afterwards, are not looking for the Lord's imminent appearing, but are looking for His wrath to take place first.

VCO · May 27, 2021

randyk said:

You called the 144,000 a symbolic number, when GOD said it was a SPECIFIC NUMBER. I was only trying to understand your position, and clarify it. I take it your are a Liberal, where I am a Highly Conservative BELIEVER, when it come to interpretation. Only when it is Totally Obvious Symbolism, do we even allow a symbolic interpretation. We interpret everything else LITERALLY.

Such as:

Revelation 13:1 (HCSB)
1 And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. He had 10 horns and seven heads. On his horns were 10 diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

That is obvious symbolism, for a ten nation Confederacy, where three of the smaller nations merge with larger nations to have more voting power.

We take the 144,000 with 12,000 from each Tribe as a LITERAL NUMBER!

GOD HAS NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING WHICH TRIBE THEY BELONG TO.

Do you even BELIEVE GOD is OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT ? ? ?

randyk · May 27, 2021

VCO said:

Can you give me *any* symbolic number that is not a "specific number?" When Jesus had his disciples gather up the leftover fish and loaves, they gathered up 12 loaves in one case and 7 loaves in another case. These were symbolic numbers, representing God's endless supply for His people. The 12 represented all Israel--not that they were divided into tribal regions anymore, but that they were a nation built upon those 12 tribes.

Numbers are generally specific, even when they are symbolic. So your complaint is nonsensical.

VCO said:

Do you denounce everyone who disagrees with you as a "Liberal?" I'm certainly not a Liberal.

VCO said:

That was the whole point I was making, that the loss of tribal distinctions renders the meaning of the 12 groups of 12,000 *symbolic.* There is no other way to interpret it, since we literally do not have any tribal distinctions anymore, nor will we ever see them again. The prophecy indicated that Israel would become a nation, and that the 2 divisions would be healed. The 12 tribes were purely the beginning of this nation, starting with 12 sons of Jacob.

VCO said:

The horns and beast were obviously symbolic of an endtimes empire under the Antichrist. But the number ten was not only "specific," but it was *literal.* There will be literally 10 states under the control of Antichrist in the endtimes.

VCO said:

Who is "we?" I believe it's *you* who take something obviously symbolic and turn it into a literal number. It certainly could be a literal number, but the 12 divisions are not possible. And so, I think the number also is symbolic. To be honest, I don't really know. I'm just saying that the tribal distinctions are impossible, if you're going to be literal. And so, they refer to *all Jews.* In this case, they refer to all Jews who comprise the remnant of Israel who believe in Jesus.

VCO said:

Yes, He knows that there are no tribal distinctions anymore. You think God has assigned certain tribes to every Jew today? How silly is that?

VCO said:

Yes. Viewing this passage as symbolic or not has nothing to do with believing in God's omnipotence. Why would God want to take people with a mixed tribal heritage, that no longer have any tribal distinction, and reassign them 12 tribes?

This is not an example of divine omnipotence. This is more the product of your unwillingness to see the obviously symbolic nature of the passage. It shows, in other words, your weakness, your pride. If you can't be right, then everybody else has to be a "Liberal?"

TheDivineWatermark · May 27, 2021

Runningman said:

I'm not sure how you can say that, for the amount of times I've pointed out that even Paul acknowledge that the Thessalonians were already (as early as that) experiencing "PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS YE ENDURE," per 2Th1:4... which is also what made it *PERFECTLY REASONABLE* for them to be convinced of what the false conveyors were saying "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" in 2Th2:2, necessitating such a letter from Paul.

Since they were already experiencing "PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS" even then, and since "the Church which is His body" has experienced the same throughout its existence on the earth from the first century (nearly 2000 years-worth), we are not *waiting* for a future 7-yr period IN ORDER TO *experience* it!!

(thus, the pre-trib viewpoint is not exactly "escapist" in the sense that pre-tribbers merely hope to "escape" all tribulation and persecution, as you suggest, as though that *only* is what the whole "7-yr Trib" thing is slated to unfold and none whatsoever occurs prior to that time-period. NO. I believe that reflects a faulty understanding of the "purposes" of that future, specific, LIMITED time-period [we call the (7-yr) Tribulation Period], which leads UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom).
Sure, 1Th1:10 says "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING" [an eschatological wrath and an eschatological 'salvation'], and we will experience the "SNATCH" [/ harpazo / rapture]... still, I do not believe that indicates that "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (re: its existence)] has not already experienced some near-2000-years' worth of "PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS" and are merely awaiting on the "7-yr period" SO THAT WE FINALLY *CAN* (or at least, that small percentage of the "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" who will be existing at the time...).

I just cannot see how that is "an escapist mentality." At all.

TheDivineWatermark · May 27, 2021

^ P.S. I should add, by way of reminder... you may recall my posts covering Luke 21:36 (which I do NOT see as a "Rapture" verse, as many do), as well as 1 Thessalonians 5:3c (also re: those ppl IN the trib years)... and how both of these verses use the same Greek word ("escape / [actively] flee out-of")... NEITHER verse referring to "our Rapture" event. (One verse referring to those who will *not* come to faith in/during the trib years; the other verse referring to those who WILL BE...)

randyk · May 27, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

That's clearly untrue. When a child is raised up in a familiy of JWs, they are taught to interpret the Bible by their spirit and by their method of interpretation. So when the child grows up and reads the Bible, they still get the interpretive methodology they were raised up with.

When you read 2 Thes 2 I'm sure you read into the teaching you've already been given on it. I'm sure that when you read Revelation, and read a Pretrib Rapture into John's being caught up to heaven that you got indirectly from Darby's teaching. It certainly is *not* in the Bible itself!

VCO said:

In fact you are following Darby indirectly. There is no other place from which Pretrib teaching came. It did not come from the Bible until Darby began to apply his method of interpretation. He began with the presupposition that Christians could not and should not experience the "Wrath of God."

Let me be transparent here. I never studied Darby. I don't know precisely how far today's Pretribbers have wandered from Darby's original teaching. But I do know the seeds of Pretrib were planted by Darby. Regardless of your ignorance about where you got your teaching, you did get Pretrib teaching indirectly from him.

VCO said:

The Apostle John warned his readers not to add to the book of Revelation. If the Pretrib Rapture is not taught there, it is wrong to add one there. Not only is it not there, but it's not anywhere in the Bible. The general resurrection of the Church takes place at the Coming of the Son of Man, which according to Dan 7 takes place at the destruction of Antichrist, the Man of Sin. That is when the saints are delivered from him, and it is explained as a resurrection in Dan 12.

VCO said:

More hocus pocus? Esoteric doctrines are more akin with gnosticism than with Christian doctrine. Subjective revelation is not how God's word operates. God "shouts things from the housetops--He doesn't whisper them to private covens.

VCO said:

I heard you the 1st time--no need to reiterate. Separating the Coming of Christ into two days is *not* what is being taught. We were warned *not* to accept any coming prior to the destruction of the Antichrist. These are false Christs and false prophets, or false 2nd Comings! Any movement claiming to be the realized Kingdom of God on earth today is a "false Christ."

VCO said:

Sorry, but that's exactly what 2 Thes 2 teaches. You can ignore it, debate it, but you have to answer God about it. It's His word--not mine. Either submit to His word, or fight a losing battle all your life. Many have out of sheer pride. They haven't been completely to the cross.

VCO said:

Don't you realize what a bind you've put yourself in? You said the entire Tribulation Period, including the persecution of the saints by the Antichrist is the Wrath of God. And yet you say its impossible for the saints to be there, experiencing the persecution of Antichrist. You're very confused!!

You conflate the Wrath of God directed against unbelievers for their eternal damnation with saints going through turmoil with those who are being judged. If I go through an earthquake in my city because God is judging my city for its ungodliness, and yet, I am not ungodly, then I'm only going through the trouble with those who are being judged. I am *not* being judged myself. That is exactly what the Prophet Jeremiah went through when Jerusalem collapsed during the judgment of Israel. And yet Jeremiah himself was *not* being judged. So you're 100% wrong, and your logic is faulty. You base your whole system on a fallacy. Worse, you refuse to even see it.

VCO said:

The "hour of trial" you may be referring to was an historical experience of one of the 7 churches John was writing to. It wasn't wrath for those in the city who were faithful, was it?

VCO said:

That "Great Tribulation" refers to the historical Jewish Diaspora, which has been going on since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD! This Jewish tribulation is the worst judgment in Israel's history precisely because of its great duration of time! It has lasted for 2000 years! And it will be finally "cut short" at Christ's coming, just when it seems Israel will finally be destroyed.

If you think 3.5 years of Antichrist persecution is going to be hugely greater than the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust, or the Christians burned as candles by the Romans, or those Christians thrown to the lions by the Romans, you're kidding yourself. Pain is pain, and vast numbers of Christians have died in history, and great natural disasters and diseases have happened, claiming millions of lives. Staliln caused the death, it is said, of 20 million people in the USSR during the 20 years he was in charge. And you say the endtime tribulations will be much worse? What--you think the suffering of people in the last days will be worse than what Jesus suffered on the cross?

No, you're looking at it all wrong. This isn't a comparison between how one death is worse than another death, nor is it even a comparison of numbers, though it is significant. The fact is, the entire NT age has been a tribulation for Christians. Jesus is coming back to bring it to an end. And he will come back to destroy Antichrist on the *last day!*

VCO said:

Well, you're engaging in false teaching yourself, because the Pretrib Rapture is *not* taught in the Bible. Darby taught it, his disciples taught it, and now you're teaching it. Shame on you!

Ahwatukee · May 27, 2021

randyk said:

What in the context would make you think that the number of loaves gathered up were symbolic? Unless the context suggests a symbolic meaning, you should read it as being literal. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. That said, there is nothing symbolic about having 12 and 7 loaves of break left over. You're just reading symbolism into the verse where there isn't any.

We may not know who belongs to what tribe, but God does.

The horns and beast were obviously symbolic of an end times empire under the Antichrist. But the number ten was not only "specific," but it was *literal.* There will be literally 10 states under the control of Antichrist in the end times.

Unless symbolism is obvious, scripture should always be read in the literal sense.

As far as I can remember, there are no symbolic numbers in Revelation.

TheDivineWatermark · May 27, 2021

randyk said:

I have a question (pretty sure we've covered this before in the past, but I'm trying to refresh my memory

)

Can you take a look at the brief blurb I put in another thread (one small paragraph), esp. regarding the 12 tribes, and provide your thoughts on that point again... [I think in this post I link below, the poster and I had been discussing "Matthew25"... so that's what I'm supplying the "PARALLEL PASSAGES" to, in that post]:

Post #176 (#177 was an additional thought / reference) - https://christianchat.com/threads/five-foolish-virgins-vs-five-wise-virgins.198099/post-4535116

(add to that, Lk22:30, which I didn't reference in that post, because I was focusing in on the specific wording of Matthew 19:28 there ["in the regeneration when..."], and its relation [time-wise] with Matt25:31-34 [and its similar phrasing], His Second Coming to the earth... so how do you perceive the reference in those verses, to "the 12 tribes of Israel"? [future, per those CONTEXTS])

TheDivineWatermark · May 27, 2021

randyk said:

Naw, man... people were *distinguishing* between the point-in-time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and Christ's Second Coming to the earth, well before Darby in the late 1800s. The following is just one puny example... but there are certainly more...

Consider:

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/r...llowing-titles-millennium-last-novelties/read

"Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties" - Morgan Edwards (1700s)

Morgan Edwards first published these in 1744, and then published it again in 1788...

...the below quoted texts are excerpted from pages 7, 21, 24, 25 (note: the site says the spelling of Edwards has been modernized)... not exactly how we describe "pre-trib" today, but certainly he is *distinguishing* the point-in-time of "our episynagoges[/I] unto Him" and His Second Coming to the earth / His 'MANIFESTATION' / 'OPENLY MANIFEST' (as we "pre-tribbers" also see *distinguished* in Scripture):

[pg 7]

"II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.

"I say, somewhat more; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (1 Thes. iv, 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house of God" (John xiv: 2), and to disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be at the house of God" (1 Pet. iv. 17). . ."

[pg 21]

"5. Another event previous to the Millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to himself, and then withdrawing with them, and observed before, This event will come to pass when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a half before his killing the witnesses, and assumption of godhead. . . . "

[pg 24]

"8.The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before. . . ."

[pg 25]

"Millions and millions of saints will have been on earth from the days of the first Adam, to the coming of the second Adam. All these will Christ bring with him. The place where they will alight is the "mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east." Zech. Xiv, 4."

[end quoting; underline mine]

[caveat: his views differ slightly with mine, as you know...

]

Absolutely · May 27, 2021

randyk said:

I was asked for the most prominent source. I have *many sources* proving my position. 2 Thes 2 is just the most prominent one that comes to mind. Equally critical is Dan 7, from which emerges the prophecy of the "Son of Man," who comes from heaven to destroy the Antichrist. This is the basis for NT eschatology. Jesus himself used the name "Son of Man" as applying to his eschatological role. That's how important that postribulation Scripture is in this argument!

I've found that Darby's Dispensatoinalism likes to divide up Christian and Jewish histories, separating them at a supposed Pretrib Rapture. And so, they would take Dan 7, and apply it in a "Jewish sense," as if it doesn't apply to the Church. I find that wrong-headed. If we do that, what eschatology do we, as Christians, have left? Not much.

So where is your postrib rapture defense?

I have read your posts and you are like 95% anti pretrib rapture.

But dont seem to know what you believe concerning when the rapture occurs.

randyk · May 27, 2021

Absolutely said:

No, I'm 100% opposed to the Pretrib Rapture, but I go to a Pretrib Church where the pastor accepts that I have a different opinion. So I don't make this a fellowship issue, though it has long been of interest in my life. I have a lot of personal history with it.

Clearly, I know more than you apparently think I know about the "Rapture." It takes place, as the Bible says, when Christ descends from heaven on the "last day." It is the day when he comes to destroy the Antichrist with the "breath of his mouth," by his word of power. He comes with the departed saints, and with those of us still alive and caught up to meet him in the clouds.

No big deal. This is Scripture. What about this makes you think I hedge or am obscure about my views?

randyk · May 27, 2021

Absolutely said:

I will add this much. Some Pretribbers have a problem with Postrib because they believe the Rapture is unpredictable, whereas the "Tribulation Period" is a predictable 1260 days. I can understand that concern because yes, Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour of his Coming, save the Father.

But nowhere in the book of Revelation is it said that Jesus returns from heaven on the 1260th day of Antichrist's reign. For all I know, Antichrist's overwhelming domination on earth is what lasts 1260 days--not his actual rule.

It is said that Antichrist rules over a 10 nation resuscitation of the old Roman Empire, the "4th Beast" of Dan 7. That places his rule in Europe.

And though people across the globe worship his carnality and power over Christianity, he only rules over Europe, and appears to be indomitable in the world, among all the powers on earth. This overwhelming power will last 1260 days. The time for resistance begins *after* the 1260 days, culminating in Armageddon, a world war.

I believe the nations will turn against him at the end. And how long it takes for Armageddon to develop we don't know. It does take time for troops from across the world to be mobilized to the Middle East, where I believe Antichrist will take his final stand.

It is clear, however, that beyond the 1260 days, life continues on earth before Christ returns. It's said that the 2 Witnesses are killed *after* their testimony of 1260 days. They lie dead in the streets for several days *after* the 1260 day period. And then there is an extension of time during which Christ's Coming is portrayed as "coming quickly." We don't know how long that time period is, and thus the day and hour of Christ's Coming remains unpredictable.

Rev 11.14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
Rev 16.15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

And so, the Tribulation Period cannot be "counted down" to Armageddon, since we don't know how long the mobilization period for Armageddon will be. Nor will the world even recognize that this is happening. To the unbelieving world, this is just another "Napoleon" figure, trying to configure the world in a way that organizes the world into a functional Kingdom. Christians will seem to them to be an obstacle in this process.

randyk · May 27, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Thank you, brother. I'm happy to become informed about this--obviously, I was wrong, and thought that Pretrib did not exist prior to Darby, although I did know that there had been a wide variety of eschatological views in history.

But it doesn't really change my opinion, that Pretribbers today largely get their views from the movement Darby started, from his "Dispensational" framework. Obviously, Darby got his ideas from the Bible. But the argument that the Bible actually teaches that system is betrayed by the fact almost nobody in history, but Darby, has been able to sell it as such. Very few have made such a belief system "fly." It just isn't taught in the Bible without a presuppositional position favoring Pretrib.

This reference is obscure enough for me to believe that it is not the source of modern Pretribism. No, I still believe Darby is that source. There may be adjustments in today's Pretrib beliefs from that of Darby. But it's largely the same Dispensational system, separating Jewish history from Christian history in the endtime.

But I do appreciate the correction. It's good to know that Darby wasn't alone in his Premill convictions, which is what I think was most important about Darby and this other character. It makes me wonder if Darby may have read anything from Morgan Edwards, since they are relatively close in time?

But the critical matter for me is, as I said, that there was a rising tide of interest in Futurism. And we do share that interest, both Postrib and Pretrib. The Kingdom is "not yet." And until that time, Christians will have to suffer some losses. We have to be prepared for that. And we *must* believe that God will fulfill, literally, all of His promises on earth, for Israel and for all the nations. The Kingdom will reign on a mortal earth, I believe, for a literal thousand years!

Absolutely · May 27, 2021

randyk said:

I uniquely position my self in both camps to test fit.

First i do post trib position.
The word says all take the mark of the ac.
So right off there are no belivers making it very far into the trib.
Mat 25 has 5 believers left behind at the rapture.
Mat 24 has the same quotant.
Only the 144k JEWS are sealed against the flying scorpions.
Only Jews left on the earth, no church....unless you think the christians are getting stung.( no seal)
Then we see Jesus in harvesting his bride several times.
NONE are postrib!!!!
EVERY TIME it is a pretrib rapture.

Then we have Jesus putting up a pretrib rapture bilboard.
....with 2 powerful escape verses
......and 2 powerful pretrib escapes in history. ( lot and noah).

Then DURING THE TRIB Jesus comes in the clouds and harvests ripe fruit Jews.....during the trib.( rev 14)

Now 1 thes 4 has the dead rising BEFORE THE LIVING.
Postrib doctrine CHANGES THAT!
Postrib doctrine has the dead rising AFTER the rev 14 gathering.

Postrib doctrine was started by a confused early church that saw NO ISRAEL,and the jewish race scattered into a non end time entity. They were out of the picture.
So how ironic that the ones hollering Darby and svoffield are the ACTUAL ones in the deception of...you got it....early church fathers deception

Postrib ORIGINATED in the prism of a destroyed israel....deception big time.Many of those early believers were also amil.
( honestly they were in a powerful deceptive time frame and got it wrong...very wrong...but i dont know that i would have been decieved also)

Also ironic that darby and others picked up on the enlightened few that saw israel becoming a nation changed the way we view prophecy.

Now for pretrib rapture.

Rev 19 has the church bride becoming the wife in heaven. The wedding supper in heaven according to Jesus.

Then factor in my verses above, in the postrib model.

No brainer
Pretrib rapture.

Not convinced?

Now look at the several comings that postrib adherents try to force fit into a single coming after the gt.

Again pretrib rapture is bullet proof.

The easiest of all doctrines to defend.

We need no extra biblical anything to defend it.

Postrib rapture adherents can not make a case without invoking dead men. Postrib doctrine is 100% man centered and tribulation centered.

You will never, ever see a postribber invoking the Bride/ groom dimension.

Never happens.

Strangely.....the rapture is the groom gathering the bride.

Absolutely · May 27, 2021

I have put out a challenge for years.
It is to postribbers.

The challenge is to point me to a single postrib rapture verse.
Not postrib 2nd coming on horses

Postrib rapture of the bride

Any takers?

So far we have seen zero in 30 years.

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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