50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

Totally agree. "Missing the Rapture" MAY be logically implied....but it is NOT specifically claimed in the text.

Correct.

The "false claim" that Paul is informing about in v.2, explicitly concerns/entails: "that the day of the Lord is already here [perfect indicative]". That's it.

That is what the TEXT ITSELF states (v.2).

And whether or not the "false conveyors" even are aware of the concept of "rapture" is completely irrelevant (it is NOT explicitly stated in this text, v.2)... rather, zeros in on the false claim: "THAT the day of the Lord IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]"--nothing more is stated in this text... like "and therefore you have MISSED the RAPTURE." NO! The false claim SAYS NOTHING about that Subject whatsoever (per what TEXT of verse 2 actually states).

 

[Absolutely]

Surely teaching a secret rapture is so unscriptural that it borders on heresy?

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Gatherings.
The one on horses, rev 19 nas no gatherings , except to gather the saints ALREADY IN HEAVEN.

1thes 4, rev 14, mat 25, MAT 24, ACTS 1 , are all gatherings.

Yet you find a simple reading outside your reframing of those same verses heresy?

You POSITIVELY can not HONESTLY cram those gatherings into one event.

Red flag city. ...You need to seriously revomsider changing and skewing verses


Psssst....the WORD OF GOD.

You have never looked at them have you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul: Concerning the rapture [1], don't be persuaded by any false conveyors claiming 'that the day of the Lord is already here [perfect indicative][2], ... because it will NOT be [present][2], if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE/OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM/our Rapture IN THE AIR *FIRST* [1--the Subject Paul BROUGHT UP in v.1], and the man of sin be revealed...

Thus, two evidences must be in play for such a claim to be true (neither of them are--therefore is a "false claim"), but only ONE of them is said to be *FIRST* (not BOTH of them are *FIRST*, as some mistakenly read this text to be saying).

Subjects:

[1]--"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (our Rapture--where we go TO "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]"

[2]--the false claim "that the day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period of "JUDGMENTs" unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME (the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" time-period) is already here... and Paul's words instructing them not to believe that false claim that it IS ALREADY HERE

[3]--3a [the "WHY"] "because NOT"... "because it will NOT be present [Subject 2], if...
------3b "if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [Subject 1]...
------3c "AND the man of sin be revealed..." [belonging to Subject 2--in "the day of the Lord" earthly time period of JUDGMENTS unfolding, when the "man of sin" will have "ARRIVED" on the scene per v.9a to DO ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those "7 years"--That is, when he is "revealed," that is when "the day of the Lord" time period WILL INDEED be present, and which time period's ARRIVAL is LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG" that COMES UPON a woman... NOT when they've ENDED, see... (and which Jesus Himself had also spoken of in His Olivet Discourse and which are equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN] time period, aka 7-yrs, that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 also covers the Subject of...) ]

Thanks for more word salad, and not answering my question.

But I realize why there won't be a coherent answer coming. It would reveal your unbiblical view that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation.

And you still haven't explained what the DotL in v.2 refers to.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@FreeGrace2 , [saying] "And you still haven't explained what the DotL in v.2 refers to."

Yes I did... numerous times.

You simply do not accept its definition I supplied from Scripture itself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gatherings.
The one on horses, rev 19 nas no gatherings , except to gather the saints ALREADY IN HEAVEN.

Right. They are gathering in heaven in order to gather in the clouds on earth with all the living saints.

1thes 4, rev 14, mat 25, MAT 24, ACTS 1 , are all gatherings.

Yes. And none of these texts says that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Why doesn't that bother you?

You POSITIVELY can not HONESTLY cram those gatherings into one event.

None of them describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured saints to heaven.

Red flag city. ...You need to seriously revomsider changing and skewing verses

Say.in.front.of.mirror.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2 , [saying] "And you still haven't explained what the DotL in v.2 refers to."

Yes I did... numerous times.

You simply do not accept its definition I supplied from Scripture itself.

If you would please leave out all the embellishments, and just define it in plain words, I would know your view.

Until then, I do not have any idea what you believe about the DotL.

 

[Absolutely]

Surely teaching a secret rapture is so unscriptural that it borders on heresy?

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning...very bright!

Good verses!!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@FreeGrace2 , [saying] "Until then, I do not have any idea what you believe about the DotL."


I've explained a million times, the false claim is "that the DOTL is already here"... and that Scripture itself informs us that it is a very lengthy earthly-located time-period which includes the entire spans of time from the START of the 7-yr period (we commonly call the Tribulation period, misnomer tho it be) clear to the END of the 1000-yr MK age: ALL of that.

The false claim being that it "IS ALREADY HERE" playing out in their existence. Not that year 683 "IS ALREADY HERE," as you are endeavoring to suggest it would be claiming (v.2).




That you yourself have adopted the incorrect "Amill-teaching's" MADE UP definition of "the day of the Lord" (having very recently made that a definite permanent fixed stance of yours, on this term), is the reason you are not grasping the actual point Paul is making in these 3 verses... and especially what v.2 is expressing.

 

[VCO]

Precious friend, sorry it was just a "play on words" because of
pre-tribers instead of pre-tribbers. I apologize for any Confusion.

See you, in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

I wholeheartedly believe in the RAPTURE, and I dearly would LOVE to see that HOUR. But, I am not sure that I will get to see that GLORIOUS HOLY DAY. You see Strokes run in my family, and a 72, I have already had 8 Strokes. The last one left my lips numb and the tip on my tongue, burning. Today I almost saw a man die, and his name is John, and he had a massive heart attack. He had a woman doing CPR on him and he laid on the HOT CEMENT. About three times, as I walked from HOME DEPOT, I wanted to HELP, but there were two women taking turns on CPR, so I just PRAYED, earnestly for him to survive. I kept straining to hear ambulance coming, but it seemed to be too long. His heart stopped beating at least twice. The ambulance finally got there, and his heart was still beating. As I walked to my car, that could have been ME.

Now I am not afraid of dying and would welcome it. But I want you all to know, this is my favorite song about Death. The House Colet Selwyn sings about is our earthly bodies.

 

[cv5]

Thanks for more word salad, and not answering my question.

But I realize why there won't be a coherent answer coming. It would reveal your unbiblical view that the rapture occurs before the Tribulation.

And you still haven't explained what the DotL in v.2 refers to.

DOTL? The seed text is in the book of Joel, all three chapters. Joel is the first "writing prophet"....about 835BC.

Incidentally, Joel 3:11-14 is a must know passage as it relates to the book of Revelation. Certainly ch 14 also.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well that is for sure - Jesus doesn't come in 2 stages - that is [...]

What you say here reminds me of another post I'd put, some time back:

[quoting old post, in part]

...
back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...

--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,

--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.

...which one of these two passages speak of it?

Or do both of them speak of [what WE label as] His "First Advent" happenings?

--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) unto Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];

--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'...when Jesus DID this: 'thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]']

 

[Mem]

Thanks for more word salad, and not answering my question.

Perhaps you would like to try our house vinaigrette. It's quite exquisite.

 

[ewq1938]

DW's exegesis is *horrible!* He may be a fine Christian man, but his communication skills are wanting, perhaps due to the subject matter.

Agreed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've explained a million times, the false claim is "that the DOTL is already here"... and that Scripture itself informs us that it is a very lengthy earthly-located time-period which includes the entire spans of time from the START of the 7-yr period (we commonly call the Tribulation period, misnomer tho it be) clear to the END of the 1000-yr MK age: ALL of that.

OK, to be clear, you think the 7 year Trib HAS ALREADY STARTED? Where do you get that?

The false claim being that it "IS ALREADY HERE" playing out in their existence. Not that year 683 "IS ALREADY HERE," as you are endeavoring to suggest it would be claiming (v.2).

Where do you get the "year 683"? And how am I "suggesting" that?

That you yourself have adopted the incorrect "Amill-teaching's" MADE UP definition of "the day of the Lord"

There is NO WAY I am adopting the VERY incorrect Amill's teaching. I very much believe in a literal 1,000 year reign on earth when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent.

Your understanding of v.1-3 cannot be reasonable in any way. Paul begins with his CONCERN about the rapture. And includes the "coming of our Lord', which IS the Second Advent.

In v.2, Paul argues against the claim that the DotL has already come.

Then in v.3 Paul very clearly notes that the rapture (that day) cannot occur UNTIL the "rebellion" (Tribulation) occurs and the beast (a/c) is revealed. All that shows that "that day", which is the Second Advent (coming of our Lord") and gathering to Him ("rapture") of v.1 cannot occur until after the Tribulation.

(having very recently made that a definite permanent fixed stance of yours, on this term), is the reason you are not grasping the actual point Paul is making in these 3 verses... and especially what v.2 is expressing.

No, that would be you.

 

[ewq1938]

Why is there an underlying assumption that the antichrist cannot begin his marking and/or beheading campaign until he is revealed?

Because the text forbids it:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This happens before anyone gets the mark of the beast. He is quite revealed by this.


Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

This happens after the world is worshiping the beast.

 

[FreeGrace2]

DOTL? The seed text is in the book of Joel, all three chapters. Joel is the first "writing prophet"....about 835BC.

I don't need Joel to understand Paul in v.1-3.

 

[ewq1938]

You're not gonna like the sound of this........but he has been cleaning your clock time and time and time again. And not just you. It's not even close and it's actually quite embarrassing to watch it happening.

This is pure nonsense and even the analogy is weak. People like Randy and other post-tribs are the clock makers. Those of the pre-trib fantasy are just the clock cleaners. Get back to work

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Thanks for more word salad, and not answering my question.

Perhaps you would like to try our house vinaigrette. It's quite exquisite.

No thanks. I'm looking for some meat.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@FreeGrace2 , [saying] "I don't need Joel to understand Paul in v.1-3."

Well, you should at least understand what PAUL HIMSELF had already said about the v.2 phrase "the day of the Lord" when he wrote about that very thing in his first epistle, not terribly long before this... which you clearly do not grasp, and completely ignore, in order to go with the "made up" definition of it, that renders the point in vv.1-3 a slaughtered-and-massacred-word-salad. lol

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

OK, to be clear, you think the 7 year Trib HAS ALREADY STARTED? Where do you get that?

No.

Paul is saying, don't believe the FALSE CLAIM of anyone saying such a thing.

And then he explains WHY.