50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

Well the whole purpose of the Church is to be strong - strong enough to overcome.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out........21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The pillar refers to the 12 tribes (Exodus 24:4) The throne is where the saints judge the 12 tribes of israel

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It just seems to me that a main duty of the Church is to bring the unbelieving Jews back into israel

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

The ac is killed by Jesus.

An overcomer overcomes sin, but in the context of overcomer in rev it is " not resisting martyrdom"

If you keep reading that verse they die. "Overcomer".

There is a preparation . It is intimacy with Jesus. That is the defining difference in the 10 virgins ( 10 believers).
5 had RUN OUT of oil. ( had little oil). They were nominal carnal believers. Loved other things. Saw no need to be overfilled. Walked in a "getting by" dimension. Pew sitters.

The ones raptured will be the ones with eyes on Jesus. Obedient ones .
Obedient to Jesus saying " do nothing till you get the power" (pentecost)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Quote. """I've never said any rapture verse is wrong. What I have said is that there are NO rapture verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. That is all I've said about rapture verses."""

Yes, I posted that.

You take an assumption and actually build off of assumption.

An assumption, eh? Are there rapture verses "that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven"? Is that a fact or not?

If my claim is wrong and merely an assumption, how come you haven't quoted the verse that DOES describe Jesus taking resdurrected and raptured believers to heaven? What are you waiting for?

Play it out. Apply it in hundreds of applications.

The list is endless

" no eskimos mentioned in heaven..therefore...."

" no blacks mentioned in heaven...therefore..."

"No butterflies mentioned in heaven...therefore..."

This isn''t even close to an example that you think it is.

It is YOU that assumes that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. I"m not assuming anything.

Back to your silly "examples". If there were doctrines or claims about NO eskimos going to heaven, or NO blacks going to heaven, or certainly NO butterflies in heaven, then you'd have a point.

But you don't. No one is making these stupid claims. But YOU are making the claim that Jesus will take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. But you don't have any verse that describes this.

And all you have is a highly spiritualized parable. When people do that to parables, they are able to make up whatever they want, and they know their "version" cannot be refused (nor proved).

You take abstract generalities and actually incorporate them into bulletproof doctrine.

Is the claim that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven some kind of "abstract generality"?

What you've done is make a claim that can't be proven from Scripture and have incorporated it into your "bulletproof doctrine".

What IS bulletproof is that there is no pretrib rapture. Or there would be a clear verse that describes it.

And 2 Thess 2:1-3 blows a HUGE bullet hole in your supposedly bulletproof doctrine.

You can only claim a pretrib rapture.

But you can't prove it.

 

[Absolutely]

The Olivet Q&A is complex.
The questions are about the destruction of the Temple, the End of The Age and Jesus's Parousia - 2nd coming.
It seems like things were confused in the disciples' minds.

Jesus's answer is predominantly about AD70. In verse 27 he shifts focus

.............So up to here we've been talking about geo-localized events - now shift of focus.............
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(The 2nd coming is not a geo-localized event; it is a global event)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(The 2nd coming is not a geo-localized event; it will not happen at Jerusalem, where the carcase and the vultures have all converged - again Jesus reinforces the death trap that is Jerusalem )
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
(those days - this refers to the entire period of tribulation of the Jews, which is also called the Time Of The Gentiles by Luke and is just under 2000 years long: it is not just the destruction but also the diaspora)
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(*)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
(**)
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
(***)
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[ *, **, *** ] I've explained these already but will try again when I have some energy

Keep reading.

Jesus shifts gears to noah.

He frames his coming " before the flood"

Before flood...NOAH

Then commands them to watch and be ready
He is coming BEFORE the flood.

Show me noahs and lots removal after judgement.

BTW... you will never see a postrib honestly unpack that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Keep reading.

Jesus shifts gears to noah.

He frames his coming " before the flood"

No, He didn't come before the flood. He used life on earth before the flood as a comparison to His coming.

Before flood...NOAH

brw, did God remove Noah from the earth? Just asking.

Then commands them to watch and be ready
He is coming BEFORE the flood.

No, Jesus isn't or didn't come before the flood. Wow are you confused.

Show me noahs and lots removal after judgement.

Were either one removed from earth? That's the question.

Yes, both were removed from the judgment. No one argues that. And the 10 plagues of Egypt is a perfect example of how God will protect HIS PEOPLE during the Tribulation.

BTW... you will never see a postrib honestly unpack that.

One needs to keep their eyes open to see it. Happens all the time here.
You can't unpack 2 Thess 2:1-3.

 

[Absolutely]

You probably don't really understand what Jesus meant here. it is not obvious.

'then shall appear' is the translation of the Greek word 'phaino' - meaning to appear to the mind, to shine brightly

What Jesus is talking about here is critical, so pay close attention.

The disciples asked for the sign of his coming, and this is the sign he gave.
Well this is the crux of the matter. The sign that was contested and impugned was the sign of Jonah -
namely the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

Effectively Jesus is saying that when his resurrection is 'phaino' (-ed), is understood by the Jews,
is seen brightly (i.e. not through the vail), this is the sign that he will return.
Basically the wholesale ingathering of the Jews is the sign of Jesus' imminent return.

You said the ac is toasted by the church.

My "Where is that" was asking where you got that from

 

[OldSage]

The ac is killed by Jesus.

An overcomer overcomes sin, but in the context of overcomer in rev it is " not resisting martyrdom"

If you keep reading that verse they die. "Overcomer".

There is a preparation . It is intimacy with Jesus. That is the defining difference in the 10 virgins ( 10 believers).
5 had RUN OUT of oil. ( had little oil). They were nominal carnal believers. Loved other things. Saw no need to be overfilled. Walked in a "getting by" dimension. Pew sitters.

The ones raptured will be the ones with eyes on Jesus. Obedient ones .
Obedient to Jesus saying " do nothing till you get the power" (pentecost)

You are just making a loose assumption that Jesus kills the AC.
And you are missing the point
on the overcomers versus Satan:


R12: 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Absolutely]

Not exactly. The Early Church initially believed in the restoration of Israel at the end. Paul said it, and some of the Early Church Fathers said it. Faith in Israel's restoration gradually dwindled until it completely faded away, Replacement Theology taking its place.

Darby did do us a great service in helping to restore confidence that there is yet ahead a new age for national Israel. I don't criticize him at all for that!

I dont need those dead men. Any of them.

I do not line up exactly with most pretribbers.

Awatukee and i dissagree on certain items.
The same with dw. And others.

...but we do agree on 99% of verses.

Why is that?
Because we are hound dogs and not onto cookie cutter teachers.

You basically lie and slander about that darby mess.
It is not true.

Yet even when told you keep framing it into a bizarre false narrative.

Every time you do it, it comes across to me as if someone very ignorantly says " that bible is satanic" ....why? " because i have seen satanists use it at every one of their meeting"

Bizarre.

Flat out bizarre.

Deception

 

[Absolutely]

You are just making a loose assumption that Jesus kills the AC.
And you are missing the point
on the overcomers versus Satan:


R12: 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

nowhere does that say the ac is toasted by the church.

Reread it.

They died. He killed them.

That is their overcomer dimension.....martyrdom.

 

[Absolutely]

All the apostles except John were overcomers that were martyred.

 

[OldSage]

nowhere does that say the ac is toasted by the church.

Reread it.

They died. He killed them.

That is their overcomer dimension.....martyrdom.

You have a certain understanding of overcoming, which is simply martyrdom,
and of Jesus pitching up physically to kill the AC. Both are not right.

 

[Absolutely]

""You are just making a loose assumption that Jesus kills the AC.
And you are missing the point
on the overcomers versus Satan""

I read it. Assumed nothing.

Rev 19
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth

 

[Absolutely]

You have a certain understanding of overcoming, which is simply martyrdom,
and of Jesus pitching up physically to kill the AC. Both are not right.

An overcomer overcomes sin, the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Overcomer in those verses in rev is being martyred by the ac.

The church does zero to stop the ac.

Reread it.

It says he kills them.

" ....they loved not their lives unto death"

They have a choice. Take the mark or die. Millions/billions are slaughtered.

There are no believers left by the end of the gt.

.....according to the bible.


It says ALL HAVE THE MARK.

 

[Absolutely]

That alone points to postrib rapture impossibility

 

[Mem]

That alone points to postrib rapture impossibility

I agree, they overcome the temptation to take the mark but, these are also those dead who are resurrected at the rapture (posttrib), so I don't see the impossibility.

 

[OldSage]

An overcomer is a victor. In a physical fight it is the stronger person, the Winner.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not line up exactly with most pretribbers.

And NO pretribber lines up with Scripture regarding the rapture.

...but we do agree on 99% of verses.

Could you point me to any verse that describes or teaches that Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

Why is that?

Because I am looking for evidence.

Because we are hound dogs and not onto cookie cutter teachers.

OK, hound dogs. Can you at least SMELL a verse that describes or teaches that Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

Bizarre.

Flat out bizarre.

Deception

I fully agree that the teaching of a pretrib rapture is just that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have a certain understanding of overcoming, which is simply martyrdom,
and of Jesus pitching up physically to kill the AC. Both are not right.

I haven't been following the back and forth here regarding "who killed JR, I mean, the AC".

But, to add some Scripture (why not?), consider this, from Revelation 19-
19 Then I saw the beast (AC) and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider (Jesus Christ) on the horse and his army.

20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

So, who is the One who throws the beast (AC) and false prophet into the lake of fire? Jesus Christ. They weren't killed physically, but they were thrown into "the second death".

I hope that clarifies a bit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That alone points to postrib rapture impossibility

Could you please explain yourself here in post #3413?

 

[OldSage]

An overcomer overcomes sin, the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Overcomer in those verses in rev is being martyred by the ac.

The church does zero to stop the ac.

Reread it.

It says he kills them.

" ....they loved not their lives unto death"

They have a choice. Take the mark or die. Millions/billions are slaughtered.

There are no believers left by the end of the gt.

.....according to the bible.


It says ALL HAVE THE MARK.

You are confusing Satan and the AC I think

 

[OldSage]

I haven't been following the back and forth here regarding "who killed JR, I mean, the AC".

But, to add some Scripture (why not?), consider this, from Revelation 19-
19 Then I saw the beast (AC) and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider (Jesus Christ) on the horse and his army.

20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

So, who is the One who throws the beast (AC) and false prophet into the lake of fire? Jesus Christ. They weren't killed physically, but they were thrown into "the second death".

I hope that clarifies a bit.

Erm, not at all..Daniel does though clarify it. The Saints defeat the AC (little horn)

Daniel 7 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.