50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Precious friend, thanks so much, and Amen! I respect your view of the
"rapture as post-trib." I know that after 18 months of research, I know that
my final accounting of my own {confirmation of } "pre-trib" view will only be
given to HIM, Who is the Righteous Judge! We, as co-labourers With God,
can only plant or water Seeds Of HIS Pure And Holy Word, But HE "Gives
the increase" {to those whose hearts are humbled}. (1Co_3:7-15 KJB!) Amen?
Be Blessed!
"rapture as post-trib." I know that after 18 months of research, I know that
my final accounting of my own {confirmation of } "pre-trib" view will only be
given to HIM, Who is the Righteous Judge! We, as co-labourers With God,
can only plant or water Seeds Of HIS Pure And Holy Word, But HE "Gives
the increase" {to those whose hearts are humbled}. (1Co_3:7-15 KJB!) Amen?
Be Blessed!
Hey randyk,
Back when you made this ^ post, I had planned to have you consider a couple of posts I'd made on that subject, but time got away from me and I never got back to it...
One post is here (on pg 119 of this thread), regarding a quote by "Irenaeus":
Post #2362 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4552839
The other post I'm referring to (re: same), is LINKED within that ^ post.
I'm fairly convinced that what I'm pointing out in those two posts is accurate, because of what he says elsewhere in his writings (which I touch on briefly in that LINKED Post #1934 [different thread] in that post ^ )
Back when you made this ^ post, I had planned to have you consider a couple of posts I'd made on that subject, but time got away from me and I never got back to it...
One post is here (on pg 119 of this thread), regarding a quote by "Irenaeus":
Post #2362 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4552839
The other post I'm referring to (re: same), is LINKED within that ^ post.
I'm fairly convinced that what I'm pointing out in those two posts is accurate, because of what he says elsewhere in his writings (which I touch on briefly in that LINKED Post #1934 [different thread] in that post ^ )
Okay, it may have been a misundersanding. It appeared to me you were implying that HIS appearance in the clouds was not a physical appearance, OR that HE is not physically appearing to those who look for him! That may have been a misunderstanding on my part, or poor choice of wording on your part, or a combination of both. IT LITERALLY WILL HAPPEN PHYSICALLY.
The difference between the SECOND COMING and the earlier RAPTURE; is easy to explain.
SECOND COMING, is obvious, it happens SO SLOWLY all the worlds Armies has time to move their Armies to ISRAEL to try to STOP HIM.
RAPTURE, is an event that HAPPENS SO QUICKLY, it is equated to lighten flashing across the Sky, and every eye the looks up will see it.
Matthew 24:27 (HCSB)
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man {for HIS Bride} .
Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen. {That is US, ref. Rev. 6:9-11.}
15 A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGSAND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
19 Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
20 But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
That is when HIS FEET touch the GROUND on the Mount of OLIVES, splitting it in two. It is not a COMING until HIS feet touch the GROUND.
i do wonder sometimes if I read the same Bible as other people.
If you disagree with any of the following statements feel free to flag them.
The first persecution of the Church (circa 35AD) happened in Jerusalem
Acts 8 That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria
Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would savagely attack, persecute and repress the Church in the first century, both in Jerusalem, and throughout the worldwide Jewish religious system
Matthew 23 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.
&
Luke 21: 12 “But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13 This will give you an opportunity to testify. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; 15 for I will give you words[c] and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
The Thessalonian Church was horribly persecuted by Judaism
1 Thessalonians 2: 14 For you, brothers and sisters,[d] became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets,[e] and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.
If you disagree with any of the following statements feel free to flag them.
The first persecution of the Church (circa 35AD) happened in Jerusalem
Acts 8 That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria
Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would savagely attack, persecute and repress the Church in the first century, both in Jerusalem, and throughout the worldwide Jewish religious system
Matthew 23 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.
&
Luke 21: 12 “But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13 This will give you an opportunity to testify. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; 15 for I will give you words[c] and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
The Thessalonian Church was horribly persecuted by Judaism
1 Thessalonians 2: 14 For you, brothers and sisters,[d] became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets,[e] and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.
This ^ IS in the "70ad" section (i.e. the events surrounding 70ad, in vv.12-24a/b); which sequentially precedes the beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 already referred to (which "pangs" are parallel/equivalent in Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8);
--so "great distress IN THE LAND" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" (Lk21:23,20) speaks of Israel (Jerusalem) in the events surrounding 70ad
[pre-tribbers acknowledge this]
--so "great distress IN THE LAND" and "wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" (Lk21:23,20) speaks of Israel (Jerusalem) in the events surrounding 70ad
[pre-tribbers acknowledge this]
Quick answer -
27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Christ appeared the first time after his crucifixion. the second appearance (as the resurrected Lord) will be when he comes for the Church, to rapture them into eternal bodies.
27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Christ appeared the first time after his crucifixion. the second appearance (as the resurrected Lord) will be when he comes for the Church, to rapture them into eternal bodies.
Thanks, brother--I can see how you're reading this, and if I took it from a Pretrib conception, I would take it the exact same way. However, it is my belief that there was no Pretrib presupposition, that it can be read with a Postrib presupposition, which is likely, since *all* Church Fathers seemed to have had a Postrib presupposition. That is, they believed that the Church would be persecuted by a future Antichrist, and that the Antichrist would be defeated at the Coming of Christ, which then precipitates the Kingdom of Christ.
Here is what you offered:
[quoting Irenaeus]
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
With a Postrib presupposition, Irenaeus is less concerned about the *order* in which he is saying things. In assuming they all of this is being addressed at once, he simply mentions the Rapture of the Church 1st.
He is saying, in advance, that the Church will, after the tribulation, be caught up. He is recapitulating the things out of which it is assume the Church will be rescued! We know that because Irenaeus informs us that the Church, in being "Raptured," will have "overcome" in this tribulation period!
Please recognize that Irenaeus is not saying that after the Rapture "then" the Tribulation will take place. Rather, he is saying that after he *mentions* the Rapture of the Church, then it is "said." In other words, both doctrine of the Rapture and doctrine of the Tribulation are mentioned in the same place in the Scriptures, with the order already assumed to be understood as Postrib.
Here is what you offered:
[quoting Irenaeus]
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
With a Postrib presupposition, Irenaeus is less concerned about the *order* in which he is saying things. In assuming they all of this is being addressed at once, he simply mentions the Rapture of the Church 1st.
He is saying, in advance, that the Church will, after the tribulation, be caught up. He is recapitulating the things out of which it is assume the Church will be rescued! We know that because Irenaeus informs us that the Church, in being "Raptured," will have "overcome" in this tribulation period!
Please recognize that Irenaeus is not saying that after the Rapture "then" the Tribulation will take place. Rather, he is saying that after he *mentions* the Rapture of the Church, then it is "said." In other words, both doctrine of the Rapture and doctrine of the Tribulation are mentioned in the same place in the Scriptures, with the order already assumed to be understood as Postrib.
First, I'm talking about 2 Thes 1, which deals with the 2nd Coming of Christ, and our being gathered to him. Second, the temple in which Antichrist takes his seat has a number of options. I only offer my own option, which doesn't at all decide what 2 Thes 1 is all about.
2 Thes 1 is talking about the tribulations Christians were already suffering, and continuing until the end of the age. At the end of the age, Jerusalem and the temple have no role whatsoever in God's NT economy. Jerusalem, as a city, certainly plays a role, but not with respect to OT worship at the temple.
My view of Antichrist's place in God's temple assumes that Paul referred to God's temple in heaven, after which the earthly temple was strictly a temporary model. The book of Hebrews, and Pauline Doctrine, would prohibit any sense of a restored temple worship in the last days.
Antichrist is claiming to be God. He is claiming to own a space in God's throne room. In other words, the statement that he sits in the temple of God is a metaphorical statement.
I feel confident that Paul was taking his metaphorical statement from the prototype of Antiochus 4, who historically tried to displace orthodox Jewish worship with Hellenism and idolatry. It was displacement of the true God for false gods, like Jupiter or Antiochus himself.
2 Thes 1 is talking about the tribulations Christians were already suffering, and continuing until the end of the age. At the end of the age, Jerusalem and the temple have no role whatsoever in God's NT economy. Jerusalem, as a city, certainly plays a role, but not with respect to OT worship at the temple.
My view of Antichrist's place in God's temple assumes that Paul referred to God's temple in heaven, after which the earthly temple was strictly a temporary model. The book of Hebrews, and Pauline Doctrine, would prohibit any sense of a restored temple worship in the last days.
Antichrist is claiming to be God. He is claiming to own a space in God's throne room. In other words, the statement that he sits in the temple of God is a metaphorical statement.
I feel confident that Paul was taking his metaphorical statement from the prototype of Antiochus 4, who historically tried to displace orthodox Jewish worship with Hellenism and idolatry. It was displacement of the true God for false gods, like Jupiter or Antiochus himself.
(Sorry Randy - my head was in several places before)
Well amongst other reasons there are three parties here not two.
At the rapture it is just Team A and Team B.
Here we have 3 parties, the Saints, the Destroyed, and those who admire and give honour to the Saints.
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
What Paul is saying i believe is that when Jerusalem is torched, the Church is given this great victory and vindication
that causes people to greatly admire the Church. In effect, that God uses the destruction of Jerusalem to bring people into the Church.
Well amongst other reasons there are three parties here not two.
At the rapture it is just Team A and Team B.
Here we have 3 parties, the Saints, the Destroyed, and those who admire and give honour to the Saints.
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
What Paul is saying i believe is that when Jerusalem is torched, the Church is given this great victory and vindication
that causes people to greatly admire the Church. In effect, that God uses the destruction of Jerusalem to bring people into the Church.
FreeGrace2 said:
Tell ya what. I'll just add the context and you can go from there.
2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming (Second Coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord (beginning of Second Advent) has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (Second Coming) will not come until the rebellion (Tribulation) occurs and the man of lawlessness (Beast #1 aka a/c) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
It makes no sense to view v.1 as being about Jerusalem. The overall issue is the a/c or Beast #1 and the Tribulation.
You sure do like to dodge, don'cha.
The temple in v.6 is about the one THAT HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET. But it will be. And THAT is the temple Paul was noting. Although he didn't know there would be another one. But prophesy is like that. Just as Peter noted in 1 Pet 1:10-12.
Tell ya what. I'll just add the context and you can go from there.
2 Thess 2-
1 Concerning the coming (Second Coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord (beginning of Second Advent) has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (Second Coming) will not come until the rebellion (Tribulation) occurs and the man of lawlessness (Beast #1 aka a/c) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
It makes no sense to view v.1 as being about Jerusalem. The overall issue is the a/c or Beast #1 and the Tribulation.
You sure do like to dodge, don'cha.
The temple in v.6 is about the one THAT HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET. But it will be. And THAT is the temple Paul was noting. Although he didn't know there would be another one. But prophesy is like that. Just as Peter noted in 1 Pet 1:10-12.
Why are you talking in a funny voice? It sounds a bit stupid.
Or maybe that is how you talk, init?
'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond.
Erm I did answer some of your questions - maybe you need to reread the posts and then ask the pertinent questions.
Given that you sit there firing out questions like a police Academy novitiate, which i generally take the trouble to reply to , it is a bit rude really to say things like:
You sure do like to dodge, don'cha.
It's like you are just here to showboat and be a bit of a jerk. What's that all about?
Why can't you just be a normal adult?
Ok, so you understand that we are talking about Jerusalem.
Or maybe that is how you talk, init?
'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond.
Erm I did answer some of your questions - maybe you need to reread the posts and then ask the pertinent questions.
Given that you sit there firing out questions like a police Academy novitiate, which i generally take the trouble to reply to , it is a bit rude really to say things like:
You sure do like to dodge, don'cha.
It's like you are just here to showboat and be a bit of a jerk. What's that all about?
Why can't you just be a normal adult?
Ok, so you understand that we are talking about Jerusalem.
