50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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VCO

VCO

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You know this ANTI-PRE-TRIB movement today, is a VERY DANGEROUS POSITION.

The Lord and the Holy Spirit, has CONVINCED Me that the Pre-Trib Position is absolutely Correct.

But for hypothetical speculation, We Pre-Tribbers are Proven Wrong, we just shift gears, and focus on Mid-Trib. AND if that be PROVEN WRONG, We just then focus on Post-Trib; while we KEEP ON TRUSTING THE LORD and HIS PLAN for the Bride.

But Mid-Trib and Post-Trib believers insist on not getting ready early, and keeping ready, AND IT HAPPENS TO BE PRE-TRIB, OH MY! You Just Missed the ONLY BOAT THAT THERE Ever is Going to BE!


1624671457269.png
 
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GaryA

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GaryA said:
The Second Coming of Christ is not aligned with the end of the Trib; rather, the arrival of the Two Witnesses "on the scene" is aligned with the end of the Trib.
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Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Most people believe/think/say that the start of verse 30 transpires 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'; however, that is not what it actually says.

What transpires 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days' is that which is highlighted above in this color.

Compare this description to the other verses in the chart.

Two Witnesses
Trumpet Events

And, Matthew 24:29 tells us plainly that it is post-trib.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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GaryA said:
Most people believe/think/say that the start of verse 30 transpires 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'; however, that is not what it actually says.
Click to expand...

Wrong, it plainly and clearly says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

"and then" is the Greek "Kai tote" which means "and at that time" signifying the evenst of verse 30 do happen immediately after the Great Tribulation has ended.


G5119
τότε
tote
Thayer Definition:
1) then
2) at that time
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (the neuter of) G3588 and G3753

So the verses literally say this:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And AT THAT TIME shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The second coming does happen immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ @ewq1938 ,

I agree with you that the phrase "AND THEN [kai tote - G2532 G5119]" (those words together) in every occurrence (something like 20x) refers to something that follows on the heels of the other thing previously mentioned:

--Matt5:24; 7:5, 23; 9:15; 12:29; 16:27; 24:10, 14, 30[2x]; Mar2:20; 3:27; 13:21, 26, 27; Lk6:42; 21:27; 1Cor4:5; Gal6:4; 2Th2:8




So I too disagree with @GaryA 's point in his Post #4382 (and others)
 
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GaryA

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ @ewq1938 ,

I agree with you that the phrase "AND THEN [kai tote - G2532 G5119]" (those words together) in every occurrence (something like 20x) refers to something that follows on the heels of the other thing previously mentioned:

--Matt5:24; 7:5, 23; 9:15; 12:29; 16:27; 24:10, 14, 30[2x]; Mar2:20; 3:27; 13:21, 26, 27; Lk6:42; 21:27; 1Cor4:5; Gal6:4; 2Th2:8




So I too disagree with @GaryA 's point in his Post #4382 (and others)
Click to expand...
disagree???

The words highlighted above agree with me...

The things described in verse 30 occur after the things in verse 29.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ @ewq1938 ,

I agree with you that the phrase "AND THEN [kai tote - G2532 G5119]" (those words together) in every occurrence (something like 20x) refers to something that follows on the heels of the other thing previously mentioned:

--Matt5:24; 7:5, 23; 9:15; 12:29; 16:27; 24:10, 14, 30[2x]; Mar2:20; 3:27; 13:21, 26, 27; Lk6:42; 21:27; 1Cor4:5; Gal6:4; 2Th2:8




So I too disagree with @GaryA 's point in his Post #4382 (and others)
Click to expand...
Cool, nice to hear something of agreement.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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GaryA said:
disagree???

The words highlighted above agree with me...

The things described in verse 30 occur after the things in verse 29.
Click to expand...
Yes but the events of verse 30 happen immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation, immediately after verse 29.

.
 
G

GaryA

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ewq1938 said:
Wrong, it plainly and clearly says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

"and then" is the Greek "Kai tote" which means "and at that time" signifying the evenst of verse 30 do happen immediately after the Great Tribulation has ended.


G5119
τότε
tote
Thayer Definition:
1) then
2) at that time
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (the neuter of) G3588 and G3753

So the verses literally say this:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And AT THAT TIME shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The second coming does happen immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Click to expand...
Your 'AT THAT TIME' expression is connected/tied to - and follows - the things described that occur 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days'...

To make a comparative point - it is tied to 'shaken' and not 'days'.
 
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GaryA

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People tend to think of the GT as "when all of the bad stuff happens"; however, the reality does not work that way.

The Bible tells us when it starts.

The Bible tells us when it stops.

If you learn to think about End Times prophecy [strictly] in terms of 'events', you can order those 'events' based on the answers to these questions:

~ What happens before what?
~ What happens after what?
~ What happens at the same time as what?

The verses on my Order of Events chart is arranged based on those answers.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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GaryA

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GaryA said:
People tend to think of the GT as "when all of the bad stuff happens"; however, the reality does not work that way.
Click to expand...
Case-In-Point:

If you look at End Times prophecy [strictly] in 'event' terms, you discover that the Trumpet Events and the Wrath of God (vials) are both entirely post-trib.

And, this is based on how Jesus defines "Great Tribulation" - when it starts and when it ends.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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GaryA said:
But - the events of verse 29 cover a span of time that is at least 3.5 years.
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No, verses 29-31 are the same day, and same hour. Any years long period has completed by the time of the second coming. All that is left is the thousand years and then the little season of Satan and then the GWTJ .

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
G

GaryA

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GaryA said:
Case-In-Point:

If you look at End Times prophecy [strictly] in 'event' terms, you discover that the Trumpet Events and the Wrath of God (vials) are both entirely post-trib.
Click to expand...
The one exception to this would be if the first three of the Trumpet Events were considered as occurring during the GT - and, the GT ends before Trumpet 4 is initiated.
 
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GaryA

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ewq1938 said:
No, verses 29-31 are the same day, and same hour. Any years long period has completed by the time of the second coming. All that is left is the thousand years and then the little season of Satan and then the GWTJ .

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Click to expand...
Verses 30 and 31 are the same day and hour. But, not verse 29.
 
OldSage

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ewq1938 said:
No, verses 29-31 are the same day, and same hour. Any years long period has completed by the time of the second coming. All that is left is the thousand years and then the little season of Satan and then the GWTJ .

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Click to expand...
If no-one knows the time of Christ's return, you cannot say it is the terminal point of a fixed and known time period.
I hear this error being made so often.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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GaryA said:
Verses 30 and 31 are the same day and hour. But, not verse 29.
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This is still wrong. They are all happening the same day, immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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OldSage said:
If no-one knows the time of Christ's return, you cannot say it is the terminal point of a fixed and known time period.
I hear this error being made so often.
Click to expand...
The verses depict the timeframe of the second coming happening immediately when the Great Tribulation ends.
 
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