Works
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I appreciate all these posts that are centered on Christ and how the Christian lives their life as belonging to Christ. For a Christian, those who work for the Lord do so as a result of Christ within, of having received the Holy Spirit. Our works are not our own.
However many Christians question this work of a Christian, wondering if this Christian is not working for salvation.
I think that our world is operated by the Lord with precise cause and results, and these principles work no matter what motivates an action. We know this when we look at faith. When we act in faith in Christ for forgiveness, the result is always forgiveness. It seems to me that in the same way a work in harmony with the Lord's ways always result in a specific outcomes regardless of the motivation for the work.
If you give to the poor there is a reward, if you rob a bank there is a reward, if you hate someone and are unforgiving there is always a reward even apart from salvation and death.
I am not suggesting any Christian be motivated by this fact. We live our life as Christians, I am only suggesting this is a fact we can be aware of. Our deeds earn a reward apart from salvation. 2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
However many Christians question this work of a Christian, wondering if this Christian is not working for salvation.
I think that our world is operated by the Lord with precise cause and results, and these principles work no matter what motivates an action. We know this when we look at faith. When we act in faith in Christ for forgiveness, the result is always forgiveness. It seems to me that in the same way a work in harmony with the Lord's ways always result in a specific outcomes regardless of the motivation for the work.
If you give to the poor there is a reward, if you rob a bank there is a reward, if you hate someone and are unforgiving there is always a reward even apart from salvation and death.
I am not suggesting any Christian be motivated by this fact. We live our life as Christians, I am only suggesting this is a fact we can be aware of. Our deeds earn a reward apart from salvation. 2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
I agree that good works come out of our faith - but I don't like the word "natural".
Instead I would propose that good works are not "natural"; they are spiritual. Good works are not something the believer does naturally. They come about only through the work of God/Holy Spirit in our spirits.
Furthermore good works are not isolated or separated from salvation. Salvation (deliverance) is not just about obtaining heaven. Salvation (deliverance) is being delivered from the daily power and control of sin and the Devil - and thus good works (versus living in sin) are inextricably part of my deliverance (salvation).
Instead I would propose that good works are not "natural"; they are spiritual. Good works are not something the believer does naturally. They come about only through the work of God/Holy Spirit in our spirits.
Furthermore good works are not isolated or separated from salvation. Salvation (deliverance) is not just about obtaining heaven. Salvation (deliverance) is being delivered from the daily power and control of sin and the Devil - and thus good works (versus living in sin) are inextricably part of my deliverance (salvation).
I understood that this post is about receiving eternal salvation without works. salvation, if you would refer to the Greek meaning of it means "a deliverance". You cannot discuss eternal salvation without discussing deliverance. They are one in the same.
Sense we are discussing salvation, which is a deliverance, we have scriptures that tell us that the born again child of God, when he commits a sin and loses his fellowship with God, and repents, that he is delivered from his non-fellowship. Many salvation (deliverance) scriptures has reference to this event.
When God's children apply all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures to eternal salvation, they will find that the scriptures, seemingly, teach that eternal salvation is achieved by our good works, such as repenting. which is a false belief.
This kind of false belief causes many types of ways in an attempt to explain away works.
Sense we are discussing salvation, which is a deliverance, we have scriptures that tell us that the born again child of God, when he commits a sin and loses his fellowship with God, and repents, that he is delivered from his non-fellowship. Many salvation (deliverance) scriptures has reference to this event.
When God's children apply all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures to eternal salvation, they will find that the scriptures, seemingly, teach that eternal salvation is achieved by our good works, such as repenting. which is a false belief.
This kind of false belief causes many types of ways in an attempt to explain away works.
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that would create a totally physical universe in which physics were king and God sat by and watched
and I know you believe God works in the spiritual, so it becomes difficult to follow whatever it is you are trying to say
ummm....how about people reaping where they have not sown? (I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor. John 4:38) how is that going to play into your thoughts?
kindly don't come back with some snappy retort like in the other thread where you totally made up a response that accused me of first of all hating Jews and then some other off the wall thing I could not even follow
you start these threads that have some obscure objectivity known only to yourself and then basically grade responses on whether or not you find they fit in with whatever you have in mind
that is not a discussion. you also contradict yourself and that does not help either
and I know you believe God works in the spiritual, so it becomes difficult to follow whatever it is you are trying to say
ummm....how about people reaping where they have not sown? (I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor. John 4:38) how is that going to play into your thoughts?
kindly don't come back with some snappy retort like in the other thread where you totally made up a response that accused me of first of all hating Jews and then some other off the wall thing I could not even follow
you start these threads that have some obscure objectivity known only to yourself and then basically grade responses on whether or not you find they fit in with whatever you have in mind
that is not a discussion. you also contradict yourself and that does not help either
The point is more that any labour in the Lord is not in vain. Thats focus of Romans 8 .No matter the persecution and suffering, not to lose hope . The future is guaranteed. The future Adoption is guaranteed ( Rom 8.23 ) This assurance IS the motivation. In spite of what the outside circumstances look like ,this should pale compared to the glory to come. Every Christian that is focusing on themselves . Whether it be sanctification ( which is important ) or to ' keep saved ' is preaching fear despair .
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When scripture tells us that works do not enter into the equation when God decides about our salvation, only faith is looked at, how could anyone on a Christian site say that is not true?
This op is about works, thinking of it as completely apart from thinking of salvation. This op's discussion is about what the Lord tells us about works APART from the fact that they do not save. The only way I have found that works are spoken of in scripture in relation to being saved is that works are the result of salvation.
The eternal, still effective, part of the old covenant speaks of the Lord giving fleshly rewards for works apart from salvation, for the eternal truth given in the old testament is that there is not salvation without blood. We are given the fruits of the spirit for works, those fruits are apart from salvation.
We are NOT to work for salvation, but we are not told we may not work for earthly rewards, in fact we are told we will be judged by our works.
This op is about works, thinking of it as completely apart from thinking of salvation. This op's discussion is about what the Lord tells us about works APART from the fact that they do not save. The only way I have found that works are spoken of in scripture in relation to being saved is that works are the result of salvation.
The eternal, still effective, part of the old covenant speaks of the Lord giving fleshly rewards for works apart from salvation, for the eternal truth given in the old testament is that there is not salvation without blood. We are given the fruits of the spirit for works, those fruits are apart from salvation.
We are NOT to work for salvation, but we are not told we may not work for earthly rewards, in fact we are told we will be judged by our works.
Who wants to be faced with facts, anyway!! Or we could look at the facts and say the Lord is in control of these things, maybe God rewards obedience to His ways. If only the Jews would obey when they are told to have faith in the Savior!!
Christians have faith in the Savior but most have no faith in the law. Jews have faith in the law and no faith in the Savior. I'd rather be a Christian, but you would think the Christians could have faith in both.
Christians have faith in the Savior but most have no faith in the law. Jews have faith in the law and no faith in the Savior. I'd rather be a Christian, but you would think the Christians could have faith in both.
I’d rather date Miss Grace over Miss Prudent anyday…
Galatians 3:2,5,11-12,24-26 KJV
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:2,5,11-12,24-26 KJV
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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James is clear
if I CLAIM I have faith but have no works, can that claimed faith save me.
his answer is no, that faith is dead, it is not alive, it has no power. It is mere belief, his fight was against mere believers only (even demons believe)
what we need to remember is James did not contradict paul.
paul fought legalism, faith plus works, what he called a different gospel. And showed how t must be grace or works it can’t be both (if it is of grace it is no longer works otherwise grace is not longer grace, and how it is not by works of righteousness which we have done. But by Gods mercy he saved us.
if I CLAIM I have faith but have no works, can that claimed faith save me.
his answer is no, that faith is dead, it is not alive, it has no power. It is mere belief, his fight was against mere believers only (even demons believe)
what we need to remember is James did not contradict paul.
paul fought legalism, faith plus works, what he called a different gospel. And showed how t must be grace or works it can’t be both (if it is of grace it is no longer works otherwise grace is not longer grace, and how it is not by works of righteousness which we have done. But by Gods mercy he saved us.
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