50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Oct 23, 2020
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Well, there are a lot of threads going on in this BDF section, I'm sure it's not easy keeping it all straight as to who said what and when, and what point someone has already made and what their reasonings were for saying it...

One thing I'd like to see though, is... when I state my viewpoint, that someone [with differing view] "play back" what I've said, using their own words; but what I see happening is, when they "play back" my viewpoint, it's not actually "my viewpoint" they're playing back to me... as though they cannot even "step into the shoes" of the other's viewpoint without injecting their own thoughts / idea into it (that wasn't being expressed by the other person). :D
I am probably totally unique in this, but I find that when you remove all the bells and whistles from the text, and present it in plain English, as above, I understand what you are saying much more readily. Normally I feel that I am at a modern Art installation, and I find myself just staring at the visual impact of your post for hours before I can even begin to think about trying to assimilate its meaning. At least there is no strobe effect on the editor, or otherwise I think I'd get a migraine.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Yeah, but be sure to get that very important word "FIRST" in there in the right place (I do not see it at all ^ in your "explanation" of my viewpoint of what the text itself is saying)

AND... recall, the Thessalonians (Paul said in his first letter) ALREADY "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL... (like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus spoke of those as being what PRECEDE and LEAD UP TO His 2nd Coming / RETURN to the earth... not what commence AT His Return, see ;) --so it is not *my* idea of what "the day of the Lord" entails, but what SCRIPTURE ITSELF says it entails, and in more than merely one passage... [and I realize you're likely referring to the "false conveyors' idea of it (??)])
The other word which is very important is 'hoyto', which refers back to the previous Chapter [4] describing the Rapture.
So Paul is here in Chapter 5 describing another Day of The Lord which in like manner (hoyto) to the Rapture
will come like a thief in the night (on those 'in the dark').

Of course when Jesus spoke of the thief, he was using a parable....(I'll come back to that later)

Basically what Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 5 is that the destruction of Jerusalem will also come like a thief in the night.

In fact there is much much more I could say here.
But one thing at a time.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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Most churches are not teaching anymore about the rapture.
Basically robing their flock.

I have seen that ones end times view determines how the rest if the bible is interpreted.

For example, a friend of mine is magnetically drawn to Sam Solen.
Manifest sons of God.
You can not mention the rapture without stern resistance.

What a joke

I have somewhat against you, as GOD WOULD SAY IT:

Matthew 12:30-32 (HCSB)
30 Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters.

31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Luke 9:49-50 (NASB)
49 John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."
50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."


Maybe I to have been less TOLERANT of False Ideas and misinterpreting, than JESUS. Some of them will be saved if their HEART is right with the LORD.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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I never made that association before. Very interesting, but I'd have to think about it. My initial thought would be that its like balancing books by an accountant. Everybody gets paid their due. :)
Maybe there will be clerks in Heaven dressed like those in 'The Sting'?
The financial ledger is how salvation is often phrased, yes, debt and redemption.
I guess it is like when you get in debt when you are 20 and your Dad pays it off and strikes off the debt;
this is hopefully what Jesus does with my sins on Judgment Day.
'Paid for by my blood'

But also in Deuteronomy it seems to me that God's angels are recording things in books.
The Blessings of God in the Book of Life, and the Curses of God in the Book of Death.

Hence when the curse on Israel expires, (very soon - hurrah!! we live in awesome times), he is then able to bless them
for a thousand generations, (aka the Millennium). Obviously the curses on Israel have been horrific, both in scale and duration.

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will not spare him, but then the anger of the Lord and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven.


Luke 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.



And so:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


I.E. The Law (blessings and curses) are also written down in heaven. So heaven needs to pass away for the Law to disappear as well.

And hence also:

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Bind (deo) means 'to put under (obligation to) the Law.' Basically Jesus is telling Peter and the Church something quite major
about Christ (grace) versus the Old Covenant (the coming judgment - 'AD70').
 
Mar 4, 2020
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It's rare that I meet someone who understands that about the seal. Do you think the same for the rest of them or just the 6th? I believe they all give us glimpses of future events that take place in the trumps.
I'm not sure about the rest of the seals. I would like to think there is probably something somewhere in the old testament that would help decipher what they are talking about.

For example, Matthew 24:29, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 13:10 and the 6th seal in Revelation 6:12 John is quoting the same.

Also:

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Christ opened "one of the seals" and there are a total of 7. Which one did he open first?
I think Revelation 6:1 is just talking about opening the 1st seal.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Yep, spot on. There are only 7 ends times trumpets and the 7th is the last trump which is the same last trump Paul spoke about. Pre-trib has to invent an 8th trump so they can separate the 7th trump from being the last one. This is a clear clue that doctrine is false and man-made and littered with errors like changing Apostasy from leaving the faith to a physical departure which the word does not mean.
Precisely. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. There are no more trumpets after the last trumpet. The 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are easily explained by directly relating them to plain text, easy to understand, passages.
 
Apr 12, 2021
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When was pretrib rapture imminent?

1. Couldn't be imminent before Peter's old age and death.

2. Couldn't be imminent before John's letter to the seven churches.

3. Couldn't be imminent before the temple's destruction in 70.

4. Couldn't be imminent before the gospel is preached to the entire world.

5. Couldn't be imminent before the fullness of the gentiles is accomplished.

Pretribbers have to move the imminent needle in all the foregoing.

Prewrath rapture is a better argument, but Jesus tells we will go through great tribulation.

Be ready. You know not the hour or the day. Just be ready.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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I'm not sure about the rest of the seals. I would like to think there is probably something somewhere in the old testament that would help decipher what they are talking about.

For example, Matthew 24:29, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 13:10 and the 6th seal in Revelation 6:12 John is quoting the same.



I think Revelation 6:1 is just talking about opening the 1st seal.
Zechariah 1&2 help
 
Aug 16, 2020
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You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. Jews don't become Christians during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. There are no Christians around during the tribulation. The Church age has ended at the rapture. Pre-trib. There will never be another Christian past the point of the rapture.

Where are you getting these crazy ideas? From another guy hollering from the choir loft?
The entire notion of the Rapture is bogus. Slicing up the event into micro-causes and effects is a waste of time.

Where do I get my ideas? I get them from reading scripture, not from religious celebrities that reiterate popular myth to ticklish ears. Consider SCRIPTURE. Consider Jesus' answer to a popular scripture used to justify the false dogma of rapture.

Jesus quoted in Luke 17:34-37, "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

It is vultures that take people from the earth in the scenario Jesus referred to NOT ANGELS. Those that were taken were removed by DEMONS TO HELL, not heaven. Thus the same scripture used to justify the rapture is actually intended to describe the DEATH of SINNERS, not a reward for saints. Nowhere in the Bible are holy angels referred to as vultures. The imagery is very clear, except to those who refuse to accept the truth of what is written there.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Paul is saying, instead, "[v1] concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges unto Him [i.e. our Rapture in the air event... which I, Paul, am bringing to your mind]"

"[v2] ...don't let anyone convince you that the day of the Lord [TRIB JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING on the earth] IS ALREADY HERE / IS ALREADY PRESENT"
So, there you go. Indicating that Paul DID "change gears" from v.1 to v.2. Even though you denied it.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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One thing I'd like to see though, is... when I state my viewpoint, that someone [with differing view] "play back" what I've said, using their own words; but what I see happening is, when they "play back" my viewpoint, it's not actually "my viewpoint" they're playing back to me
If you would take our advice and leave out all your unneccessary embellishments, it would be easier to follow your posts.
 
Aug 16, 2020
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Also the entire point of the Great Tribulation is persecution of the church!

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13 shows the beginning of that tribulation period.

The Great Tribulation mentioned in Matthew and Revelation:

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints are Christians not Jews. The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!
You are adding to scripture, not gleaning truth from it.

Nowhere in any of the verses you've quoted is the word Christian used. You are adding your own dogma to God's Word and arriving at error.

First of all, the ENTIRE BIBLE except for the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts was written by JEWS for JEWS. It is estimated the early believers numbered approximately 33% of all Jews in the Mediterranean basin. Insisting gentile believers both wrote and populated the early venues is wrong and entirely anti-Semitic in nature. Suggesting gentiles promoted the establishment of believers throughout the Roman Empire is historically wrong. Paul was a JEW as were ALL of the apostles. Some who became assistants and co-workers were gentiles, but for the most part ALL early evangelists and apostles were JEWS.

You are adding to scripture, not gleaning truth from it.

The use of the term "saints" is generic in nature because it refers to Jew and gentile alike. It's interesting to see how Jew hating language and attitudes clouds the truth of God's Word. Jews are excluded except where persecution is part of the End Times myth. Don't tell me you haven't heard or read of it for it is a common thread. The Tribulation is sent so as to persuade Jews to join the church. <--- THAT is the lie of present day interpretation.

Neither Jewish tradition nor Christian tradition will save anybody.

You are adding to scripture, not gleaning truth from it.

Santa Claus the Easter bunny and your Halloween pumpkin witch won't save anybody yet the church today promotes all of them. The church today considers itself superior to God's Word and doesn't even promote the detailed study of it. If it did it would be taught that believers in Christ become Jews in God's eyes. (Romans 2:29) Instead the church of today vigorously promotes sexual aberrations, self-help programs and empty situational ethics. It is altogether Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21)

Christianity has become an empty plastic religion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I have already done so repeatedly. The Rapture is defined biblically as Christ coming to save his people from the Antichrist. The Son of Man descends from heaven in Dan 7. Both Jesus and Paul refer to the same, the coming of the Son of Man from heaven, to save God's people. In Paul's use of the term "rapture," he refers to the salvation and glorification of the Church.

Paul explains this coming for the Church by the Son of Man in the context of the NT, whereas Jesus had depicted the event in the OT era. Paul explained that when Christ returns for his Church it will be the same event as Jesus mentioned, the Son of Man descending from heaven to save his people. But Paul expanded this to include the Gentile Church, and to tie the experience of the Church to the experience of Jesus himself, who went up to heaven to be glorified.

So when Paul ties the glorification of the Church with the Coming of the Son of Man, he is talking about an instantaneous event, in which the Church ascends to heaven, receives glorified bodies, and then participates in the descent of Jesus to the earth. Paul does not separate this "Rapture" event from other places where the coming of the Son of Man is mentioned. He just assumes that Gentiles are to participate with Jewish believers in this event, in which Jesus returns from heaven to save Jewish believers. They are all to be glorified at one single event, the coming of Christ.

When you ask for "one Postrib verse,* you are assuming that there is a question about when it would take place. If there was a question, then Paul would answer that question by giving a definitive answer.

But if it was already understood that Christ is coming in only a Postrib context, then no explanation would be necessary, and there would be no single verse to explain this. However, all verses given in reference to Christ's Coming assumes he is coming as depicted in Dan 7, in a Postrib context. And 2 Thes 2 does a more than adequate job of explaining that it is Postrib--surely God Himself anticipated that this argument would arise.
Those are the 2 verses that point to a postrib rapture?
I have somewhat against you, as GOD WOULD SAY IT:

Matthew 12:30-32 (HCSB)
30 Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters.

31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Luke 9:49-50 (NASB)
49 John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us."
50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."


Maybe I to have been less TOLERANT of False Ideas and misinterpreting, than JESUS. Some of them will be saved if their HEART is right with the LORD.
The entire notion of the Rapture is bogus. Slicing up the event into micro-causes and effects is a waste of time.

Where do I get my ideas? I get them from reading scripture, not from religious celebrities that reiterate popular myth to ticklish ears. Consider SCRIPTURE. Consider Jesus' answer to a popular scripture used to justify the false dogma of rapture.

Jesus quoted in Luke 17:34-37, "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”

Where, Lord?” they asked.

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

It is vultures that take people from the earth in the scenario Jesus referred to NOT ANGELS. Those that were taken were removed by DEMONS TO HELL, not heaven. Thus the same scripture used to justify the rapture is actually intended to describe the DEATH of SINNERS, not a reward for saints. Nowhere in the Bible are holy angels referred to as vultures. The imagery is very clear, except to those who refuse to accept the truth of what is written there.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Re read it.
It is not saying vultures take anyone anywhere.
Your teachers and 95 % of the members here believe that rabbit trail.

They take that one phrase and build a complete doctrine from it.
It is false.

"Where there is smoke, there is fire"
....has zero to do with smoke or fire

Postribs= " he just said something is on fire"!

Raining cats and dogs

Postribs = he is a liar.

Jesus answering "where"
" the dead will rise into the air"

Jesus answering "where";
" here is my non answer"


Jesus answering "where"
" just as this is found in this scenario, so shall there be flying and dead raised"

But no, nothing at all to do with the rapture of any wicked or eagles eating the saints bodies.

Play it out
Half the worlds population saved, half wicked???

Error big time
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I have already done so repeatedly. The Rapture is defined biblically as Christ coming to save his people from the Antichrist. The Son of Man descends from heaven in Dan 7. Both Jesus and Paul refer to the same, the coming of the Son of Man from heaven, to save God's people. In Paul's use of the term "rapture," he refers to the salvation and glorification of the Church.

Paul explains this coming for the Church by the Son of Man in the context of the NT, whereas Jesus had depicted the event in the OT era. Paul explained that when Christ returns for his Church it will be the same event as Jesus mentioned, the Son of Man descending from heaven to save his people. But Paul expanded this to include the Gentile Church, and to tie the experience of the Church to the experience of Jesus himself, who went up to heaven to be glorified.

So when Paul ties the glorification of the Church with the Coming of the Son of Man, he is talking about an instantaneous event, in which the Church ascends to heaven, receives glorified bodies, and then participates in the descent of Jesus to the earth. Paul does not separate this "Rapture" event from other places where the coming of the Son of Man is mentioned. He just assumes that Gentiles are to participate with Jewish believers in this event, in which Jesus returns from heaven to save Jewish believers. They are all to be glorified at one single event, the coming of Christ.

When you ask for "one Postrib verse,* you are assuming that there is a question about when it would take place. If there was a question, then Paul would answer that question by giving a definitive answer.

But if it was already understood that Christ is coming in only a Postrib context, then no explanation would be necessary, and there would be no single verse to explain this. However, all verses given in reference to Christ's Coming assumes he is coming as depicted in Dan 7, in a Postrib context. And 2 Thes 2 does a more than adequate job of explaining that it is Postrib--surely God Himself anticipated that this argument would arise.
Those are the 2 verses that point to a postrib rapture?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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First of all, the ENTIRE BIBLE except for the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts was written by JEWS for JEWS.
So, you apparently believe that only Luke and Acts was written for Gentile Christians?? In spite of the fact that ALL of Paul's letters were written to Gentile churches. Wow.

The ENTIRE BIBLE was written for the human race, first for believers in the Messiah (Christ) and also everyone else. How else would unbelievers be evangelized, apart from the written Word?
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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So, you apparently believe that only Luke and Acts was written for Gentile Christians?? In spite of the fact that ALL of Paul's letters were written to Gentile churches. Wow.

The ENTIRE BIBLE was written for the human race, first for believers in the Messiah (Christ) and also everyone else. How else would unbelievers be evangelized, apart from the written Word?
Well, there's a divine order to the Almighty's plan:

- First, The Scriptures, called the oracles of God, were entrusted to Israel. They're their history books, law book, prayer book, etc.

- Next, Israel was to be given to the world - as a nation of priests - to teach the world about the Almighty through preaching and teaching...but they sinned and required punishment.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on Him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe on Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear apart from preaching?

The word was always meant to be spoken. It's why at certain events in Israel's history they'd have mass recitals of the Hebrew scriptures with the entire community in attendance.

...Fast forward to Peter's letters and he mentions the fulfillment of that promise to become a kingdom of priests...it's to fulfill that mission of preaching to the world.

"He who has an ear, let him hear."

Gentile believers are grafted into the original plan.
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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Maybe there will be clerks in Heaven dressed like those in 'The Sting'?
The financial ledger is how salvation is often phrased, yes, debt and redemption.
I guess it is like when you get in debt when you are 20 and your Dad pays it off and strikes off the debt;
this is hopefully what Jesus does with my sins on Judgment Day.
'Paid for by my blood'

But also in Deuteronomy it seems to me that God's angels are recording things in books.
The Blessings of God in the Book of Life, and the Curses of God in the Book of Death.

Hence when the curse on Israel expires, (very soon - hurrah!! we live in awesome times), he is then able to bless them
for a thousand generations, (aka the Millennium). Obviously the curses on Israel have been horrific, both in scale and duration.

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will not spare him, but then the anger of the Lord and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven.


Luke 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.



And so:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


I.E. The Law (blessings and curses) are also written down in heaven. So heaven needs to pass away for the Law to disappear as well.

And hence also:

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Bind (deo) means 'to put under (obligation to) the Law.' Basically Jesus is telling Peter and the Church something quite major
about Christ (grace) versus the Old Covenant (the coming judgment - 'AD70').
You have a unique ability to express things in a clear way! Thanks much! I never quite put all of those passages together like that--it really makes sense.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Those are the 2 verses that point to a postrib rapture?
Again, you are asking for one verse that addresses a specific question, when that question never needed to be asked. And yet it is given quite clearly and explicitly in 2 Thes 2 simply because God anticipated some would try to cause confusion on a subject already so certain.

Paul said, in 2 thes 2, not to let Christians get hyped up as if Christ's Coming is coming immediately. This is the wrong sense of "imminency." This is hype. This distracts Christians from the jobs they should be busy doing. How can you work while there is this tension of time, when Christ could arrive "at any minute?"

And so, Paul denied Christians the right to speculate on Christ coming with his Kingdom--that will not happen unless the Antichrist is revealed first. And then, Christ will only come when he comes to destroy the man "doomed to destruction."

Instead of getting concerned about "times and seasons," and specifically what day Christ will come on, we are to be watching out against deceivers and their deceptions, so that our job gets done, and we don't get distracted by the Evil One. We are to keep our eyes on Christ, above, and not get caught up with earthly things and with earthly anxieties.

This is the context for Jesus' coming for the Church--not Pretrib, but Postrib--when Antichrist is going to be judged and defeated. It is explicitly Postrib.

But where are the Postrib proof texts? They are not given as if the question is even being given. They are just given with the assumption that all of NT eschatology is built upon Jesus' Postrib Coming in Dan 7. He comes, in that text, to deliver his people in Israel, and he does so in the context of the destruction of the Man of Sin. He comes to establish his Kingdom for his faithful followers in Israel.

Jesus implied the same thing in the Olivet Discourse. This was also directed to faithful Jews, because Jesus gave this Discourse still in OT times.

However, Paul expands the mystery of the glorification of the saints to include saints from all nations. Not only will faithful Jews be saved, as in OT references, but saints will be plucked from all nations, in fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham. He will be father of "many nations."

So one mystery is that Paul added the nations to just Israel. And another mystery is that we will wear new clothes, unlike anything we've ever seen in this fallen existence.

It is all based on Dan 7, where Christ comes down from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth for the saints. And Paul is adding to this Jewish Hope the broader Christian Hope for all nations.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Jews are excluded except where persecution is part of the End Times myth. Don't tell me you haven't heard or read of it for it is a common thread.
The Tribulation is sent so as to persuade Jews to join the church. <--- THAT is the lie of present day interpretation.
And BOTH of those ideas ^ are completely INCORRECT.








Just leaving this quote here for the readers:

[quoting C H Mackintosh, in the context of his talking about a certain man-made doctrine...]


"[...] yet not a syllable about the real position of the Church--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges!

"And not a word about Israel's future! A complete ignoring, or at best a thorough alienation, of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David! The whole body of prophetic teaching subjected to a system of spiritualizing, falsely so called, whereby Israel is robbed of its proper portion [...]"

--C H Mackintosh


[end quoting]