Did Christ change the world or fulfill what was said of the world?

[Blik]

If Christ changed the world then what we learn in the old testament is no more, and we need not consider those books current scripture. If Christ fulfilled what is told in the old testament, we need to know all that Christ fulfilled.

Circumcision is a very important element of the old testament. Cutting of skin to designate true circumcision was accepted as finished true circumcision by many. There was a change when Christ came, and circumcision was of the heart. Christ explained all the laws and symbols at the sermon on the mount, saying “you have been told” and then “but I tell you”. Christ repeated many laws in stone, and then explained how those laws was now in our hearts. Christ did not say the same principle applied to circumcision, but we know God created the world to run in true order. When the Lord tells us of a principle, it applies to all of our world. Circumcision done in a literal cutting of skin was now to be in our hearts.

I think Christ fulfilled, Christ did not change. We need the old testament to explore all Christ fulfilled. What do you think about it?

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[Journeyman]

If Christ changed the world then what we learn in the old testament is no more, and we need not consider those books current scripture. If Christ fulfilled what is told in the old testament, we need to know all that Christ fulfilled.

Circumcision is a very important element of the old testament. Cutting of skin to designate true circumcision was accepted as finished true circumcision by many. There was a change when Christ came, and circumcision was of the heart. Christ explained all the laws and symbols at the sermon on the mount, saying “you have been told” and then “but I tell you”. Christ repeated many laws in stone, and then explained how those laws was now in our hearts. Christ did not say the same principle applied to circumcision, but we know God created the world to run in true order. When the Lord tells us of a principle, it applies to all of our world. Circumcision done in a literal cutting of skin was now to be in our hearts.

I think Christ fulfilled, Christ did not change. We need the old testament to explore all Christ fulfilled. What do you think about it?

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I think that's a very good idea. When people study the OT, particularly the law, they should come away with a better understanding of the NT. particularly our Lord's sacrifice.

 

[Gideon300]

If Christ changed the world then what we learn in the old testament is no more, and we need not consider those books current scripture. If Christ fulfilled what is told in the old testament, we need to know all that Christ fulfilled.

Circumcision is a very important element of the old testament. Cutting of skin to designate true circumcision was accepted as finished true circumcision by many. There was a change when Christ came, and circumcision was of the heart. Christ explained all the laws and symbols at the sermon on the mount, saying “you have been told” and then “but I tell you”. Christ repeated many laws in stone, and then explained how those laws was now in our hearts. Christ did not say the same principle applied to circumcision, but we know God created the world to run in true order. When the Lord tells us of a principle, it applies to all of our world. Circumcision done in a literal cutting of skin was now to be in our hearts.

I think Christ fulfilled, Christ did not change. We need the old testament to explore all Christ fulfilled. What do you think about it?

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The world has not changed one bit. What has changed is God's means to bring about His Kingdom and His way of overcoming the world. The world is under the control of Satan (1 John 5:19).

God's intent was for Israel to become the Kingdom of God on earth. If Israel had obeyed God, she would have been the pinnacle of human society. We see the potential when Solomon reigned and Israel prospered. However, we know that Israel failed catastrophically. From our point of view, God introduced Plan B, but it was His eternal plan and purpose all along.

Lord Jesus overcame Satan and the world system that Satan created. He gave His victory to the church. Instead of an earthly, physical kingdom, we are meant to be enforcing the victory of Christ over Satan and ridding the earth of Satan's presence. We are employed in the spiritual kingdom.

God created Adam to deal with Satan and Adam failed. God formed Israel through Abraham and Israel failed. So now God has commissioned the Lord Jesus as the "Last Adam". Lord Jesus cannot fail. He has already won. We need to catch up.

The law says that we must do something to save ourselves. Grace says that God has already done it. All we need to do as Christians is to find out who we are in Christ, who He is in us, and live in the light of those truths. That is victorious living.

We still have the enemy of our souls to contend with. It gets difficult at times. But we have the Lord Jesus to bring us through. Doubt your doubts! Stand on God's word! Resist the devil!

 

[Dino246]

If Christ changed the world then what we learn in the old testament is no more, and we need not consider those books current scripture. If Christ fulfilled what is told in the old testament, we need to know all that Christ fulfilled.

Did you mean "word" rather than "world"?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If Christ changed the world then what we learn in the old testament is no more, and we need not consider those books current scripture.

This appears to be another one of your attempts to sow spiritual confusion. Yes, Christ -- through Christians -- did change the pagan world and the whole Roman and Byzantine empires were Christian empires for centuries. That included Europe, Eurasia, and North Africa. This has nothing whatever to do with how the Old Testament is regarded by Christians.

If Christ fulfilled what is told in the old testament, we need to know all that Christ fulfilled.

We do indeed know what Christ fulfilled. The epistle to the Hebrews tells us exactly what He fulfilled.

Circumcision is a very important element of the old testament. Cutting of skin to designate true circumcision was accepted as finished true circumcision by many. There was a change when Christ came, and circumcision was of the heart.

As Paul tells us, circumcision was always meant to symbolize a circumcision of the heart. But instead it had become a Jewish ritual. And it is not required for Christians.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

This passage should be read carefully, because if not it leads to much confusion. What Jesus was saying here is that "the Law and the Prophets" (the Tanakh or Old Testament) was not to be abolished but to be fulfilled. And there remain numerous prophecies that must be fulfilled in the future after the Second Coming of Christ. So the OT is extremely important to understand future events.

However Christ abolished the Old Covenant (which is contained within the OT) after fulfilling all its requirements in His life, death, burial, and resurrection. The epistle to the Hebrews tell us that the New Covenant is FAR BETTER than the Old, therefore the Old has been abolished. Because it is no longer necessary.

 

[Blik]

This appears to be another one of your attempts to sow spiritual confusion. Yes, Christ -- through Christians -- did change the pagan world and the whole Roman and Byzantine empires were Christian empires for centuries. That included Europe, Eurasia, and North Africa. This has nothing whatever to do with how the Old Testament is regarded by Christians.

We do indeed know what Christ fulfilled. The epistle to the Hebrews tells us exactly what He fulfilled.
As Paul tells us, circumcision was always meant to symbolize a circumcision of the heart. But instead it had become a Jewish ritual. And it is not required for Christians.

This passage should be read carefully, because if not it leads to much confusion. What Jesus was saying here is that "the Law and the Prophets" (the Tanakh or Old Testament) was not to be abolished but to be fulfilled. And there remain numerous prophecies that must be fulfilled in the future after the Second Coming of Christ. So the OT is extremely important to understand future events.

However Christ abolished the Old Covenant (which is contained within the OT) after fulfilling all its requirements in His life, death, burial, and resurrection. The epistle to the Hebrews tell us that the New Covenant is FAR BETTER than the Old, therefore the Old has been abolished. Because it is no longer necessary.

Would you please explain how finding an understanding of scripture is sowing spiritual confusion?

Also, please back up your statement that Christ abolished the old covenant. As I pointed out that covenant is obsolete and of no further use to us, but to say God cancelled what God proclaimed was part of His eternal plan is a huge statement about the character of God. It means that what God tells us is not eternal but can change at any time so we could not rely on God. I feel God is absolutely true, God is eternal, God is completely reliable. If God cancelled it, please give scripture telling us so.

 

[TMS]

I think Christ fulfilled, Christ did not change. We need the old testament to explore all Christ fulfilled. What do you think about it?
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Understanding how Jesus fulfilled the law is greatly needed to help us understand the plan of salvation today.
There are many different laws and Jesus kept them all, Some are no longer needed to be kept today because Jesus fulfilled the heavenly requirements. Can the priests on Earth that are sinful stand before God as our mediator. The whole ceremonial law given to Israel could not fix the sin problem. But a better sacrifice (Jesus) could. We can learn so much from the laws in the old testament, even if we don't need to keep them today. The heavenly laws do not change. Jesus did not change any laws.

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

[TMS]

The world has not changed one bit. What has changed is God's means to bring about His Kingdom and His way of overcoming the world. The world is under the control of Satan (1 John 5:19).

God's intent was for Israel to become the Kingdom of God on earth. If Israel had obeyed God, she would have been the pinnacle of human society. We see the potential when Solomon reigned and Israel prospered. However, we know that Israel failed catastrophically. From our point of view, God introduced Plan B, but it was His eternal plan and purpose all along.

Lord Jesus overcame Satan and the world system that Satan created. He gave His victory to the church. Instead of an earthly, physical kingdom, we are meant to be enforcing the victory of Christ over Satan and ridding the earth of Satan's presence. We are employed in the spiritual kingdom.

God created Adam to deal with Satan and Adam failed. God formed Israel through Abraham and Israel failed. So now God has commissioned the Lord Jesus as the "Last Adam". Lord Jesus cannot fail. He has already won. We need to catch up.

The law says that we must do something to save ourselves. Grace says that God has already done it. All we need to do as Christians is to find out who we are in Christ, who He is in us, and live in the light of those truths. That is victorious living.

We still have the enemy of our souls to contend with. It gets difficult at times. But we have the Lord Jesus to bring us through. Doubt your doubts! Stand on God's word! Resist the devil!

You talk about plan 1 and 2 but we would not need a plan if Adam did not sin, and since then Adam fell Satan took ownership of the world and took us captive. Jesus was the plan from the beginning. Right from the start God promised Adam and eve a saviour.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Journeyman]

One thing we can see when reading the OT is that if someone fulfills the law, he should not be condemned to death.
It's imperative to understand this principle if people are to understand our Lord's sacrifice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The OT is not done away with. It is still to be fulfilled (prophecy)

These continued attempts to try to force people to follow the law though i sdisheartening.

The law is there. I study it. But for knowledge of who God is. Not how to live. It was never given to show me HOW I live. it was given to show HOW I FAILED

 

[Blik]

These continued attempts to try to force people to follow the law though i sdisheartening.

The law is there. I study it. But for knowledge of who God is. Not how to live. It was never given to show me HOW I live. it was given to show HOW I FAILED

This is a Christian site, and we are discussing scripture. It is so wrong of you to turn a discussion of law into "attempts to force". That is a way of ruining discussions that should not have to follow your rules about what scripture to discuss.

It is ironic that you have used a Christian site to exhibit unchristian behavior, behavior that Christ preached against on the sermon of the mount when Christ explained murder.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a Christian site, and we are discussing scripture. It is so wrong of you to turn a discussion of law into "attempts to force". That is a way of ruining discussions that should not have to follow your rules about what scripture to discuss.

It is ironic that you have used a Christian site to exhibit unchristian behavior, behavior that Christ preached against on the sermon of the mount when Christ explained murder.

Who said anything about chosing what scripture to discuss?

once again your inability to read what people say comes flowing through. I never said a word about not studying scripture. In fact I said I myself study the law.

Yet here you are once again bearing false witness while judging me.

Again, You are your own worse enemy.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If Christ changed the world then what we learn in the old testament is no more, and we need not consider those books current scripture. If Christ fulfilled what is told in the old testament, we need to know all that Christ fulfilled.

Circumcision is a very important element of the old testament. Cutting of skin to designate true circumcision was accepted as finished true circumcision by many. There was a change when Christ came, and circumcision was of the heart. Christ explained all the laws and symbols at the sermon on the mount, saying “you have been told” and then “but I tell you”. Christ repeated many laws in stone, and then explained how those laws was now in our hearts. Christ did not say the same principle applied to circumcision, but we know God created the world to run in true order. When the Lord tells us of a principle, it applies to all of our world. Circumcision done in a literal cutting of skin was now to be in our hearts.

I think Christ fulfilled, Christ did not change. We need the old testament to explore all Christ fulfilled. What do you think about it?

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Christ fulfilled the old covenant promise of the coming messiah , and gave the new covenant for the new earth yet to come when he returns a second time with salvstion

“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:9‬ ‭

“Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what happened was man cursed the first creation with sin and death and decay now destruction is coming to this whole world And everyone in it by Gods declaration

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6‬ ‭

before that destruction comes upon this world he has offered a new covenant for a new world to come to save believers from this doomed creation for that blessed creation of eternal life

in the middle God declared this world has an end me everything in it , but he also declared this to believers

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the ot is about this world the New Testament is about the new world to come the one made of faith

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ is the fulfillment of the ot promises and now all the promises he made by his word are the covenant that is yet to be fulfilled the end of this world me the beginning of the new and blessed of God forever

“Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭43:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what came with Christ is something new it creates new people with new hearts and new spirits they need a new law a new covenant the new man you can promise eternal life the old could
Only promise a blessed life until we die

Christ lifted e veil that was over the ot , d has revealed that there is a new creation of which believers are a part we can’t be saved for this fallen world but we can be saved from it for a better world

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


he can make new people out of us also for for a new and better place he’s prepared . it’s hard to just believe in things so wonderous , but then again the creator spoke it for truth and given he created e world we stand in now , it seems an easy choice to believe and that’s faith

“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so faith tells us what he foretold of a new world is sure

 

[Blik]

Who said anything about chosing what scripture to discuss?

once again your inability to read what people say comes flowing through. I never said a word about not studying scripture. In fact I said I myself study the law.

Yet here you are once again bearing false witness while judging me.

Again, You are your own worse enemy.

I thought you took the prize when it came to being the best at being an enemy on a Christian site.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I thought you took the prize when it came to being the best at being an enemy on a Christian site.

“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:16‬ ‭

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭

It’s hard to consider fruit if we have to jab our fingers with thorns when reaching for a piece it’s easy to notice of things are rooted in love or argument and pride ot seems
Many have the intent to simply argue anything said

 

[SophieT]

This appears to be another one of your attempts to sow spiritual confusion. Yes, Christ -- through Christians -- did change the pagan world and the whole Roman and Byzantine empires were Christian empires for centuries. That included Europe, Eurasia, and North Africa. This has nothing whatever to do with how the Old Testament is regarded by Christians.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought you took the prize when it came to being the best at being an enemy on a Christian site.

So it is ok for you to sin continually and continually blame others. But I am an enemy.

you are a hero in your own mind, and guilty of the most heinous sins in CC

 

[eternally-gratefull]

“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:16‬ ‭

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭

It’s hard to consider fruit if we have to jab our fingers with thorns when reaching for a piece it’s easy to notice of things are rooted in love or argument and pride ot seems
Many have the intent to simply argue anything said

So it is perfectly ok for her to take what people say twist them and make it appear they said something they never said. Then blame shift to make herself look good?

are you serious my friend? You should be chastening her for her sins, not enabling her to continue in them

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So it is perfectly ok for her to take what people say twist them and make it appear they said something they never said. Then blame shift to make herself look good?

are you serious my friend? You should be chastening her for her sins, not enabling her to continue in them

I should chasten no one for any sin brother that’s my judgement and uh yes I was serious in that I left some scripture agreeing that those whom pursue arguing and immediately take offense and begin to go on the offensive , are not helpful and that even when we disagree , there’s a certain way of approaching other people God dearly Loves

it doesn’t please God when his kids argue over his word meant to bring them together in the hope af eternal life , it would be a pretty long eternity of we are continually bickering and arguing simply because other people in a discussion don’t agree

seems a bit old nature to me and doesn’t reflect Christ , or Paul’s teachings arguing shouldn’t be the goal and I hope you don’t assume yourself to go around “ admonishing people for thier sins “ unless you yourself have things worked out in your own behavior I certainly sm
Not in a position to point to or accuse anyone of sin or correct others ,

but I think it’s reasonable to drop a scripture or two and maybe a thought of I agree with something someone else said so that reasonable folk consider it whether they agree or not

I’m not sure you understand but I have absolutely no Authority to judge anyone if i were to make a judgement about her or anyone else , I would be way out of line we all have the same jidge and teacher that admonishes is for sin , we should point him out maybe by sharing his word





my point is what the scripture says

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I should chasten no one for any sin brother that’s my judgement and uh yes I was serious in that I left some scripture agreeing that those whom pursue arguing and immediately take offense and begin to go on the offensive , are not helpful and that even when we disagree , there’s a certain way of approaching other people God dearly Loves

it doesn’t please God when his kids argue over his word meant to bring them together in the hope af eternal life , it would be a pretty long eternity of we are continually bickering and arguing simply because other people in a discussion don’t agree

seems a bit old nature to me and doesn’t reflect Christ , or Paul’s teachings arguing shouldn’t be the goal and I hope you don’t assume yourself to go around “ admonishing people for thier sins “ unless you yourself have things worked out in your own behavior I certainly sm
Not in a position to point to or accuse anyone of sin or correct others ,

but I think it’s reasonable to drop a scripture or two and maybe a thought of I agree with something someone else said so that reasonable folk consider it whether they agree or not

I’m not sure you understand but I have absolutely no Authority to judge anyone if i were to make a judgement about her or anyone else , I would be way out of line we all have the same jidge and teacher that admonishes is for sin , we should point him out maybe by sharing his word





my point is what the scripture says

So I guess when Paul called out Peter for sinning he was against Gods will

when someone continually and without repentance lies about others for months on end, failing to chasten them is enabling them. Not helping them,

and it certainly does not help the chatroom any, because we continue with the same person lieing about others claiming they say th8ngs they never said and then when confronted, blame shifting

sorry brother, but your dead wrong on this issue,

if it was a one time thing, I would agree mightily with you, but this has turned into habit happened sin, which should be called out, it should not be the same people over and over calling her out for sin, everyone needs to call a spade a spade.

otherwise you have chaos,

we want peach here and for people to own up to what they are doing not thread after thread after thread doing the same thing,