Do Animals Enter Condemnation or Paradise?

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#161
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
#161
BillG said:
I think they cease to exist.
Click to expand...

If H. 'is not,' then she never was. I mistook a cloud of atoms for a person. There aren't, and never were, any people. Death only reveals the vacuity that was always there. What we call the living are simply those who have not yet been unmasked. All equally bankrupt, but some not yet declared.​
But this must be nonsense; vacuity revealed to whom? Bankruptcy declared to whom? To other boxes of fireworks or clouds of atoms. I will never believe — more strictly I can't believe — that one set of physical events could be, or make, a mistake about other sets.​
- C.S. Lewis, from A Grief Observed​
​
C.S. Lewis thinks that if they cease to exist, they never existed in the first place. they were just a temporary arrangement of dust that had the illusion of existence; a mirage that deceived you for a short time into thinking they were something, when in reality they were nothing, always nothing, waiting to be revealed as nothing by the passage of time.

so he believes they either exist forever or they never existed at all; you believed a lie when you thought they were real.


souls are souls.
i agree with Mssr. Lewis; either souls never cease to exist - tho they may exist eternally in a state of death vs. existing eternally in a state of life - or there was no such thing as souls in the first place, only the temporary illusion of a soul; a lie we were deceived by for a passage of time, until it was made evident that it was only an illusion.

my dear Purple Lady disagrees with me about this - regarding people, iirc, tho not animals, who did not sin against God - and i love her. so i still love you too, dear brother Bill, even if you don't see this my way. it's clearly possible that C.S. Lewis & i are hopeless romantics who are simply wrong.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#162
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#162
posthuman said:
  • i never asked if animals have a spirit
  • i didn't ask anyone to decide who goes to hell or not
    • but to think about what they know from scripture and apply it to the question
  • admittedly yes i have an opinion on the subject, and think i can justify that opinion
    • when am convinced of something, yes, i do speak confidently about it
    • i'm interested in what others think, to add to my understanding
    • i'm interested in opposing views being justified through the Bible
      • in case i may be wrong, then i may also be taught
  • this was the topic of my pastor's sermon on sunday night
    • thought i'd 'poll the audience'
    • i knew it would be of particular interest to some to discuss
    • it's not one of those threads where we call each other heretics and blasphemers and break fellowship
    • i suspected that we might all actually agree in large part
      • which is a rare, and wonderful thing - 'like precious ointment on the head'

all that being said,
i'd like to personally offer a public apology to you for my having made this discussion topic
**sorry**
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I am very much enjoying your thred and want to thank you, Pohum! :giggle:

I do think you might have gone over the top a bit with your flow chart though. Don't let the sour pickles in here get you down.:):coffee:
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#164
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#164
Magenta said:
Oh my! As if Heaven is too small to hold us all. That settles it then, right? :giggle:
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Does anyone really believe that God did not know from the very beginning how much cat space would be required? He could make the new Earth the size of Jupiter if He wants to. The Final State encompasses more than just the Heaven City of New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven. I think we should be focusing more on what these heavenly kitties are going to eat!:confused:
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#165
Jul 3, 2015
60,333
29,580
113
#165
posthuman said:
If H. 'is not,' then she never was. I mistook a cloud of atoms for a person. There aren't, and never were, any people. Death only reveals the vacuity that was always there. What we call the living are simply those who have not yet been unmasked. All equally bankrupt, but some not yet declared.​
But this must be nonsense; vacuity revealed to whom? Bankruptcy declared to whom? To other boxes of fireworks or clouds of atoms. I will never believe — more strictly I can't believe — that one set of physical events could be, or make, a mistake about other sets.​
- C.S. Lewis, from A Grief Observed​
C.S. Lewis thinks that if they cease to exist, they never existed in the first place. they were just a temporary arrangement of dust that had the illusion of existence; a mirage that deceived you for a short time into thinking they were something, when in reality they were nothing, always nothing, waiting to be revealed as nothing by the passage of time.

so he believes they either exist forever or they never existed at all; you believed a lie when you thought they were real.


souls are souls.
i agree with Mssr. Lewis; either souls never cease to exist - tho they may exist eternally in a state of death vs. existing eternally in a state of life - or there was no such thing as souls in the first place, only the temporary illusion of a soul; a lie we were deceived by for a passage of time, until it was made evident that it was only an illusion.

my dear Purple Lady disagrees with me about this - regarding people, iirc, tho not animals, who did not sin against God - and i love her. so i still love you too, dear brother Bill, even if you don't see this my way. it's clearly possible that C.S. Lewis & i are hopeless romantics who are simply wrong.
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Please excuse me for saying: that is just silly :unsure::giggle::giggle::giggle:

Which is to say, it is total nonsense and completely illogical, a non sequitur even LOL

I am sorry you believe that and mean no offense to think it a ridiculous thing to believe!

It just goes to show how widely diversified our beliefs can be even among those who respect each other.

Still, I wonder why people think souls must exist eternally... by sheer virtue
of their having existence granted to them by God in the first place?

Why??? Does this apply to anything else that ever had existence also? Flowers, trees, furniture,
houses, stuffed animals, clothing never existed because they/it cease/s to exist at some point?

I see nothing in Scripture to warrant or support such a belief. God speaks of things which
used to exist and yet are no more, and not in any sense as if they never existed in the first place.

Some are even convinced that Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Life, and yet, if they
had, they would have lived forever, which is why God barred them from it after they sinned.

As to the man C.S. Lewis: something I read of his in my early seeking years totally turned me off:
he claimed animals did not experience pain or remember pain... something along those lines.
Excuse me for not remembering exactly what he said; I was disgusted by his promotion of those lies.

Though I must admit that I did enjoy other of his works. :)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#166
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
#166
oyster67 said:
Does anyone really believe that God did not know from the very beginning how much cat space would be required? He could make the new Earth the size of Jupiter if He wants to. The Final State encompasses more than just the Heaven City of New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven. I think we should be focusing more on what these heavenly kitties are going to eat!:confused:
Click to expand...
Catnip, grass, maybe rice..?
I polled the locals and they said definitely not broccoli. That may just be their bias tho
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#167
Jul 3, 2015
60,333
29,580
113
#167
posthuman said:
Catnip, grass, maybe rice..?
I polled the locals and they said definitely not broccoli. That may just be their bias tho
Click to expand...
Mice will no longer be available on the kitty menu because there will be no more death ;):D

Oh, whoops! You said rice :giggle::LOL::ROFL::LOL::giggle:
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#170
Mar 13, 2014
42,598
17,062
113
69
Tennessee
#170
posthuman said:
If H. 'is not,' then she never was. I mistook a cloud of atoms for a person. There aren't, and never were, any people. Death only reveals the vacuity that was always there. What we call the living are simply those who have not yet been unmasked. All equally bankrupt, but some not yet declared.​
But this must be nonsense; vacuity revealed to whom? Bankruptcy declared to whom? To other boxes of fireworks or clouds of atoms. I will never believe — more strictly I can't believe — that one set of physical events could be, or make, a mistake about other sets.​
- C.S. Lewis, from A Grief Observed​
​
C.S. Lewis thinks that if they cease to exist, they never existed in the first place. they were just a temporary arrangement of dust that had the illusion of existence; a mirage that deceived you for a short time into thinking they were something, when in reality they were nothing, always nothing, waiting to be revealed as nothing by the passage of time.

so he believes they either exist forever or they never existed at all; you believed a lie when you thought they were real.


souls are souls.
i agree with Mssr. Lewis; either souls never cease to exist - tho they may exist eternally in a state of death vs. existing eternally in a state of life - or there was no such thing as souls in the first place, only the temporary illusion of a soul; a lie we were deceived by for a passage of time, until it was made evident that it was only an illusion.

my dear Purple Lady disagrees with me about this - regarding people, iirc, tho not animals, who did not sin against God - and i love her. so i still love you too, dear brother Bill, even if you don't see this my way. it's clearly possible that C.S. Lewis & i are hopeless romantics who are simply wrong.
Click to expand...
C. S. Lewis is almost as eloquent as you are.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#174
Mar 13, 2014
42,598
17,062
113
69
Tennessee
#174
oyster67 said:
Does anyone really believe that God did not know from the very beginning how much cat space would be required? He could make the new Earth the size of Jupiter if He wants to. The Final State encompasses more than just the Heaven City of New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven. I think we should be focusing more on what these heavenly kitties are going to eat!:confused:
Click to expand...
I would surmise Fancy Feast.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#176
Mar 13, 2014
42,598
17,062
113
69
Tennessee
#176
Ruby123 said:
I would love to be reunited with my cat, she was adorable but I remember a pastor saying something about the sheer volume of animals would be too great to all be in heaven.
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Heaven is infinite in scope. Plenty of room for your cat Ruby and any other animal friends.
 
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