Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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I'm trying to understand how anyone that supposedly has such a deep understanding of scriptural intent, and 'reading right' spiritual things, be so confused about natural things?
I mean, if I take the time and consideration to look close enough, I can understand everything you are saying despite the formidable maze of elaboration that does more to misguide than to clarify any biblical truth.
And please, stop winking so much, I'm beginning to wonder if its an nervous eye tic...
I mean, if I take the time and consideration to look close enough, I can understand everything you are saying despite the formidable maze of elaboration that does more to misguide than to clarify any biblical truth.
And please, stop winking so much, I'm beginning to wonder if its an nervous eye tic...
That is not something i would personally engage very deeply.
It is what Jesus is doing next with his bride.
Postribs have that dynamic as indirect and incidental.
I see it as the heartbeat of heaven
Grafted back into the Root, which we were grafted into so, whatever benefit any branches, whether wild or natural, get from the root, it still comes from the root. We can identify with them in that He is able to graft us in at all, whether a branch previously cut off of its natural origin or having had no previous origin in the root. As long as we end up in the Root, which vein I am place in, whether Rueben, Asher or Zeb, is of no issue to me as long as I'm getting fed by the source that sustains life within that (family) tree.
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What do you think 2 Thess 2:1 proves? That the rapture occurs AT the Second Coming, which is post trib.
And 2 Thess 2:1 proves WHEN it will come. When Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Why do you keep defaulting to another book. Deal with the clarity of 2 Thess 2:1.
Yep.
WhoEVER the 2W are is not that relevant. The point that you seem to be ignoring or even rejecting is that the 2W are presently in heaven now. But since they will be killed at the end of their ministry, how can that be IF IF IF there is a pretrib rapture, when ALL of the residents of heaven accompany Jesus to earth to be resurrected with immortal bodies?
Please address this.
Only IF IF IF you will address EVERY point of mine in post #1114 and clearly prove me wrong.
Is that your whole defense? Wheree are the verses that say what you keep claiming? Specificially, that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
And why would Jesus LEAVE BEHIND the 2W when He takes everyone else in heaven with Him to earth to be resurrected and given immortal bodies?
Keep in mind that there is NO evidence in Rev 11 that the 2W receive resurrection bodies. Their physical dead bodies are simply raised to life, just like all the people in Acts who were raised to life, but died again. None of them went to heaven after being raised to life.
And 2 Thess 2:1 proves WHEN it will come. When Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Why do you keep defaulting to another book. Deal with the clarity of 2 Thess 2:1.
Yep.
WhoEVER the 2W are is not that relevant. The point that you seem to be ignoring or even rejecting is that the 2W are presently in heaven now. But since they will be killed at the end of their ministry, how can that be IF IF IF there is a pretrib rapture, when ALL of the residents of heaven accompany Jesus to earth to be resurrected with immortal bodies?
Please address this.
Only IF IF IF you will address EVERY point of mine in post #1114 and clearly prove me wrong.
Is that your whole defense? Wheree are the verses that say what you keep claiming? Specificially, that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
And why would Jesus LEAVE BEHIND the 2W when He takes everyone else in heaven with Him to earth to be resurrected and given immortal bodies?
Keep in mind that there is NO evidence in Rev 11 that the 2W receive resurrection bodies. Their physical dead bodies are simply raised to life, just like all the people in Acts who were raised to life, but died again. None of them went to heaven after being raised to life.
Regardless of who the 2W are, go ahead and address the dynamic. Looks like you're just stalling again.
We all know the 2W are presently in heaven. The pretrib rapture idea is that ALL believers in heaven accompany Jesus to the clouds and receive immortal bodies and are then taken back to heaven. The BIG U-TURN.
But, the 2W are KILLED. How is that possible in your theology?
Address that.
We all know the 2W are presently in heaven. The pretrib rapture idea is that ALL believers in heaven accompany Jesus to the clouds and receive immortal bodies and are then taken back to heaven. The BIG U-TURN.
But, the 2W are KILLED. How is that possible in your theology?
Address that.
These kind of LIES must stop. You are only embarrassing yourself by such claims.
I've addressed all your verses, but you haven't addressed any of mine.
btw, Rev 14, your fav go-to chapter, is a summary of things. You're trying to force it into the middle of the trib or something weird.
Just as ch 11 inroduces the 2W and includes their physical death (which you still haven't explained according to pretrib rapture), which will be near the end of the Trib, even though they are introduced in the first half of the trib.
And, to point out, not every passage on the Second Coming is required to include EVERYTHING that will occur with it.
What pretrib theory doesn't have is ANY VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Yet that is your central point about the rapture.
I've addressed all your verses, but you haven't addressed any of mine.
btw, Rev 14, your fav go-to chapter, is a summary of things. You're trying to force it into the middle of the trib or something weird.
Just as ch 11 inroduces the 2W and includes their physical death (which you still haven't explained according to pretrib rapture), which will be near the end of the Trib, even though they are introduced in the first half of the trib.
And, to point out, not every passage on the Second Coming is required to include EVERYTHING that will occur with it.
What pretrib theory doesn't have is ANY VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Yet that is your central point about the rapture.
Seriously? Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Do you see it? There are 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. That's what the singular "a" means.
So in the "main harvest" is included ALL believers from all time, from Adam to the time of Jesus' coming to earth for the resurrection and rapture.
Yes, there will be Messianic Jews, but so what? They are believers in Christ. And the Bible says that "in Christ" there is NEITHER JEW nor Gentile.
So your point is pointless.
Do you see it? There are 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. That's what the singular "a" means.
So in the "main harvest" is included ALL believers from all time, from Adam to the time of Jesus' coming to earth for the resurrection and rapture.
Yes, there will be Messianic Jews, but so what? They are believers in Christ. And the Bible says that "in Christ" there is NEITHER JEW nor Gentile.
So your point is pointless.
Mem said:
In the sense that the only understanding of any sort of rapture is one of Jesus taking believers to heaven before the tribulation, then no, there is no rapture.
Why would anyone call anything in ch 14 a "rapture"??
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
Why do you think you see a "rapture" here? There is 'reaping' and 'harvest' and 'gathering of ripe grapes'. This is a summary of what will happen to the earth's inhabitants in the last 7plagues that are listed in ch 15.
Then why call anything in ch 14 a rapture? That doesn't make any sense. Other than to further confuse the confused.
In the sense that the only understanding of any sort of rapture is one of Jesus taking believers to heaven before the tribulation, then no, there is no rapture.
Why would anyone call anything in ch 14 a "rapture"??
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
Why do you think you see a "rapture" here? There is 'reaping' and 'harvest' and 'gathering of ripe grapes'. This is a summary of what will happen to the earth's inhabitants in the last 7plagues that are listed in ch 15.
Then why call anything in ch 14 a rapture? That doesn't make any sense. Other than to further confuse the confused.
You really need to STOP with these false statements.
Just more untruths.
The HUGE red flags are your TOTAL LACK of any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Plus, your continued FAILURE to address the points that I've just given you.
But that's the style of false teachers. They won't engage the things that refute them and they have no evidence from Scripture.
Just more untruths.
The HUGE red flags are your TOTAL LACK of any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Plus, your continued FAILURE to address the points that I've just given you.
But that's the style of false teachers. They won't engage the things that refute them and they have no evidence from Scripture.
I never said anyone other than the 144K are sealed. Why don't you take a survey before you quote that which you have no clue about.
This reveals how little of the Bible and particularly Revelation that you don't know.
Rev 3:10 is a promise to primarily Gentile churches about how the faithful who endure will be kept from the hour of trial.
Irrelevant regarding end times, trib, etc.
This reveals how little of the Bible and particularly Revelation that you don't know.
Rev 3:10 is a promise to primarily Gentile churches about how the faithful who endure will be kept from the hour of trial.
Irrelevant regarding end times, trib, etc.
