2 Thessalonians 2

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Gideon300

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Okay, I see your logic here. Paul mentions the lust of concupiscence of the gentiles in Chapter 4, so in Chapter 5 the children of darkness are therefore the gentiles.
I think you really are missing the point, or points, here.

But even in plain semantic terms you are wrong I am afraid, as Paul immediately says the converse of what you are proposing.

1 Thessalonians 4 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

So Paul is saying that the judgment comes on the church, not the gentiles!
Completely the opposite of what you suggest.

I think your idea totally misses the bigger picture anyhow.
It is not always a good idea to draw conclusions from one passage of scripture. Romans 1:18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Paul goes on to say that God's judgement is to leave people to be what they have chosen to be. When someone asks me why God does not rid the world of the wicked, I tell them that God would have to kill everyone, starting with them! It shows the depravity of mankind that they so readily excuse themselves while being merciless to others.
 

Gideon300

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‘The angels said, ‘Mary, Allāh gives you news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to Allāh. He will speak to people in his infancy and in his adulthood. He will be one of the righteous.’ (Al‘Imran: 45-46; my emphasis).

Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is the Messiah - accepted as such by both Christians and Muslims. He is most certainly not the 'anti-Christ'.
Islam's concept of Jesus is false. Islam states that Jesus did not die on the cross and therefore did not rise again. Since the death and resurrection of Christ is the very heart of Christianity, Islam is speaking lies and deception.

Lord Jesus said that the way we treat Christians is the way that we are treating Him. Yet Muslims are happy to imprison, persecute or even murder Christians.

Allah is not the God of the Bible. In reality, "Allah" is the god of this world, the true God's adversary, Satan. Now you know why I won't put my real name here. I like my head where it is.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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It is not always a good idea to draw conclusions from one passage of scripture. Romans 1:18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Paul goes on to say that God's judgement is to leave people to be what they have chosen to be. When someone asks me why God does not rid the world of the wicked, I tell them that God would have to kill everyone, starting with them! It shows the depravity of mankind that they so readily excuse themselves while being merciless to others.
True and true. I think that partly is the problem with those antichrist readings of 2 Thessalonians 2. They have to isolate and decontextualize the passage in order to fit it into a non-scriptural eschatology.
Re Romans, again it feeds back into the theme of God's wrath against the Jews. I totally agree Gideon, all these passages work together to reinforce the point because the Holy Spirit, the voice and mind of God, is not in conflict with itself!!
 
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It is not always a good idea to draw conclusions from one passage of scripture. Romans 1:18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Paul goes on to say that God's judgement is to leave people to be what they have chosen to be. When someone asks me why God does not rid the world of the wicked, I tell them that God would have to kill everyone, starting with them! It shows the depravity of mankind that they so readily excuse themselves while being merciless to others.
Although your final point is totally incorrect. Check Genesis 18&19 and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, for instance.
Anyhow Paul is talking about Israel in Romans there so it is not to be mixed up with other themes.
 

cv5

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I wrote this blog 5 years ago. There is no such thing in THIS CHAPTER as a Falling Away, it's a DEPARTURE [of the Church].

Is the Falling Away is a False Teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far eviler towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days, etc., etc. But I do not think the true Church can “Fall Away”, either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will be left ben this earth by the Bridegroom Jesus Christ. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many, and they say it implies a “Falling Away” from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the new testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which also means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings of Catholicism".

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a "definite article" with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, "discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power. I think the church rendered the sixth head of the beast with a mortal wound that will only be healed after the church Departs.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years, to a departing of the faith, when faith is not spoken about in the entire chapter. So, the RCC and the Church of England were playing politics, hmm, sounds about right, I mean they did both torture people in those days.
Well....I am convinced. That it means a literal departure from both the proximity AND time of Gods tribulation wrath. Fits the context perfectly too....
 
O

Omegatime

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Well....I am convinced. That it means a literal departure from both the proximity AND time of Gods tribulation wrath. Fits the context perfectly too....
I agree that the words falling away can mean a departure but I prefer Rebellion. IMO
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ But the "definite article ['the']" functions to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the context (and referring to a definite event); Thus, the Subject of verse one (as "THE Departure") "fits" perfectly.



"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (involving NO ONE ELSE except "US / 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'... in His "parousia / presence" [v.1] THERE... to where WE will have been "caught up [/SNATCHED]")



I believe Paul repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this context; which agrees with the SEQUENCE also provided in his first letter to them, as well as the SAME in all other passages regarding this same Subject
 
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^ But the "definite article ['the']" functions to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the context (and referring to a definite event); Thus, the Subject of verse one (as "THE Departure") "fits" perfectly.


"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"



I believe Paul repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this context; which agrees with the SEQUENCE also provided in his first letter to them, as well as the SAME in all other passages regarding this same Subject
The indefinite article 'ho' is used not the definite article

ho apostasia
a rebellion
 

TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark

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From same LINK ^ :

[quoting]

"The article is applied to the repeated name of a person or thing already mentioned or indicated, and to which the reader is referred [...]"





[that's pretty much what I just said in the first line of my Post #367]
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ Paul is pointing out a "false claim" in v.2 ("that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"); He is saying, "don't believe THEM" [v.2]; "believe US" [v.15--what WE taught you]... the day of the Lord IS NOT PRESENT (you know, that TIME PERIOD of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, like 1Th5:1-3 says the Thessalonians ALREADY "KNOW PERFECTLY" the MANNER of its ARRIVAL, and equivalent to what Jesus had already said about those [but in the PLURAL], which are at the START of the Trib yrs)...

well... NOT [!], "if not shall have come [insert what this 'definite article' POINTS BACK TO in the text-->] THE ['OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM' / OUR 'rapture' (IN THE AIR)] DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly]..."



[note: "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES at the same moment that the "whose COMING [/ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE [parousia]" (2Th2:9a) of "the man of sin" ALSO does... and THAT is at the START of the 7-yr Trib, not its MIDDLE]
 
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^ Paul is pointing out a "false claim" in v.2 ("that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"); He is saying, "don't believe THEM" [v.2]; "believe US" [v.15--what WE taught you]... the day of the Lord IS NOT PRESENT (you know, that TIME PERIOD of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, like 1Th5:1-3 says the Thessalonians ALREADY "KNOW PERFECTLY" the MANNER of its ARRIVAL, and equivalent to what Jesus had already said about those [but in the PLURAL], which are at the START of the Trib yrs)...

well... NOT [!], "if not shall have come [insert what this 'definite article' POINTS BACK TO in the text-->] THE ['OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM' / OUR 'rapture' (IN THE AIR)] DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly]..."



[note: "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES at the same moment that the "whose COMING [/ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE [parousia]" (2Th2:9a) of "the man of sin" ALSO does... and THAT is at the START of the 7-yr Trib, not its MIDDLE]
Okay, I travelled through your linguistic maze several times, but I don't see
the rebellion qualified in any way by anything preceding it
 

TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark

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^

Notice... I had ADDED to my post after you grabbed it:

^ Right. (y)

There ISN'T. And that's the point. = )

So if the "definite article" with this word serves to:

"The article is applied to the repeated name of a person or thing already mentioned or indicated, and to which the reader is referred [...]"

... and since there is NO reference PREVIOUSLY in the text speaking anywhere of a "REBELLION" kind of event, then clearly "departure" (what the basic meaning of the word actually is, without INJECTING something else into it) is clearly what v.3b is speaking of ("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"), which points back to the Subject Paul is bringing to bear on this issue, his Subject FROM VERSE 1 ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" and how that is the ONE THING that must take place *FIRST* before the day of the Lord and its JUDGMENTS unfolding, can actually "BE PRESENT" [as was falsely "claimed" to be, v.2 (or even potentially be claimed)]... with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those "7 yrs")
 
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^

Notice... I had ADDED to my post after you grabbed it:
So if the "definite article" with this word serves to:

"The article is applied to the repeated name of a person or thing already mentioned or indicated, and to which the reader is referred [...]"

... and since there is NO reference PREVIOUSLY in the text speaking anywhere of a "REBELLION" kind of event, then clearly "departure" (what the basic meaning of the word actually is, without INJECTING something else into it) is clearly what v.3b is speaking of ("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"), which points back to the Subject Paul is bringing to bear on this issue, his Subject FROM VERSE 1 ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" and how that is the ONE THING that must take place *FIRST* before the day of the Lord and its JUDGMENTS unfolding, can actually "BE PRESENT" [as was falsely "claimed" to be, v.2 (or even potentially be claimed)]... with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those "7 yrs")
I agree that the words falling away can mean a departure but I prefer Rebellion. IMO
^ But the "definite article ['the']" functions to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the context (and referring to a definite event); Thus, the Subject of verse one (as "THE Departure") "fits" perfectly.

Omegatime in orange, you in purple.
We were talking about the rebellion, the apostasia, and you brought the definite article into the conversation:


'the rebellion' (NIV)

as opposed to

'a falling away'(KJV)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ But note I said,

"... (as "THE Departure") ..."


[NOT as "THE rebellion"--There is no reference PREVIOUSLY in this context, that the definite article would be POINTING THE READER BACK TO, concerning such a thing... ('rebellion'. No.)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The phrase in this text is: "hee apostasia [/ hee apostasis]" = "THE DEPARTURE"




...it is not:

"a falling away," nor "a rebellion," nor anything to do with "FROM THE FAITH" or some "faith issue"


Now, perhaps you can read the article I linked... and also marinate on the sentence again: "The article is applied to the repeated name of a person or thing already mentioned or indicated, and to which the reader is referred [...]"
("THE DEPARTURE" [which must occur *first*] i.e. Paul's VERSE 1 Subject--"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [UNTO JESUS... IN THE AIR--i.e. the "spatial / geographical DEPARTURE" of us!])