Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

[TheDivineWatermark]

WELCOME to "humanity" making mistakes. I believe your "accident" may be ignored if you DID NOT "fill in the Reason For the Report" box.
BUT, humanly speaking, I Could be mistaken

Wow, THANKS! I sure hope that is indeed the case! (I did not see any "box" pop up, so perhaps that's a good indication of what you say).
I'm relieved! lol

Thank you for responding. = )


____________

EDIT to ADD: Thanks to you also, @cv5 (just now saw your response)

 

[Ahwatukee]

your words What happens after the Tribulation - After the tribulation, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom on this earth. He will have the beast and the false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The wicked will be killed by the double-edge sword which proceeds form the Lord's mouth. do you know how long that lasts for ?

after the 1000 year reign of Christ Satan will be released and deceive many then God will reign fire down on them all.

this does look like more tribulation to me.

The tribulation period here is a specific time of tribulation, the long prophesied Day of the Lord. As Jesus said regarding this time period that it will be a time of great tribulation unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It is when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place.

After a thousand years of peace with Satan being restricted in the Abyss so that he cannot deceive mankind, God is showing the man's heart is always turning away from him. For it is not until Satan is released that mankind once again listens to him and rebels against God. He will simply wipe them out in a moment with fire when they surround Jerusalem. That event is not the tribulation period.

 

[Ahwatukee]

so no one recieves the first fruits untill there ressurected in end times ?. exactly what was the reason the ot saints where resurected from the grave only to be put back to sleep. ? what was the reason for it. did they recieve anything ?

It appears that it was a sign to the people, for Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life." Remember what the century said who was there watching over Jesus on the cross? When Jesus gave up His spirit the curtain in the temple was torn in two, there was an earthquake, the rocks split and the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and said, “Truly this was the Son of God.” I suppose that all of those who came out of their tombs was a sign to the people as well, that Jesus is the author of life.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Its the same as passover to all of Gods children where told to put blood on there door, so that there first born where not harmed, what would have happend if they didnt, but any how thats beside the point the fact is during a time of Gods wrath they where still present on earth. which is valid for end time wrath to. because some of the arguments is God will not have his church present in time of wrath. I can understand that but its not a valid argument for supporting pre trib rapture. I got into this dicussion a long time ago and made up my mind that pre trib rapture is a false teaching. It totaly messed my head up to be honest last time i got into it. and its starting to mess with my head again. so im going to bow out of this dicussion, If i was you i would bow out to its not a healthy discussion this one. Ive been doing a study on the soul and its far better to imagine your soul living in an eternal state of good mind.

The pre-tribulation gathering of the church is not false, but will be the fulfillment of the Lord's promise to gather us from the earth prior to His wrath being poured out on a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And since Jesus said that it will come upon the whole inhabited world, then everyone on earth will be exposed to those plagues of wrath, even the great tribulation saints. So for example, when God has those demonic beings released from the Abyss to torment mankind with stings like scorpions, no one will be exempt except for the 144,000. Everyone else will suffer from this. And it is the same for all of the other plagues of wrath. Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 where the church will be gathered, will take place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, followed by the trumpets and the bowl judgments.

It is because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely which is the principle reason why God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. Those who believe that the church will go through God's wrath are not believing in what Jesus accomplished. For by their belief they are putting the church through God's wrath right along with the wicked. And since God's wrath will affect the whole earth, there will be no place for anyone to hide from it. If the church was on the earth when the fourth angel pours out his bowl on the sun, if the church were here they would also be exposed to that scorching heat being seared. However, I would remind you again, that the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath.

 

[OldSage]

God [only] removed Lot because Abraham asked God to do so!

Had Abraham not interceded, Lot would have died in Sodom!

That is just a FACT!

No one from the Bible is asking God to remove us from our coming Tribulation!

2 Peter 2 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.

 

[Ahwatukee]

2 Peter 2 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The Means of Rescue for the Church:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Why will the Church be Rescued

He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

And Because the Punishment that brought us Peace was satisfied by the Lord ...

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess.5:9

 

[Nehemiah6]

As you can see many of theese events of Gods wrath are in diffwrent time periods. So tribulation is nothing new.

Tribulation is nothing new, but a specific period of time which is unprecedented is definitely something different. And both Daniel and Christ tell us that there will be a very specific period or time of trouble such as never was nor ever will be. A portion of that time period will correspond to "the Day of the LORD". Which will also be unique in human history. So we do not need to make a mishmash of Bible prophecy.

THE TRIBULATION ("THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE")
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
For then shall be [the] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)

It is "the Great Tribulation" since in Revelation 7 is it called "the Tribulation, the Great" in Greek.

 

[OldSage]

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The Means of Rescue for the Church:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Why will the Church be Rescued

He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.

And Because the Punishment that brought us Peace was satisfied by the Lord ...

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess.5:9

Romans 2 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil:

Where we seem to disagree is that I see Jesus as having come in Wrath once already.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew,...... 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew,

As there are two judgments; an old covenant and a new covenant judgment

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

And as the old covenant has a demonstrative function

1 Corinthians 10:11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

We can see the first judgment as God showing us the nature of his judgment and how in effect his second judgment will look

 

[AandW]

What do you think the following verses represent? His "Second Coming"? (since "cloud / clouds" is mentioned):

1) Dan 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Daniel again records that he continues looking in the night visions. He sees an incredible, wonderful sight. The new king is arriving with the clouds of heaven. This king is like a Son of Man. He walks up to the Ancient of Days, the eternal God on his fiery throne. He is presented before God so that God can examine and evaluate Him. God clearly approves of this Son of Man, because He gives Him dominion, Glory and a kingdom. All rulership, praise, and the entire earth are given to this king.

His subjects are all the peoples, nations and men of every language who will serve Him. This new king is unlike any king who came before Him. While the first three beasts rose and fell in power, this new king will rule over an everlasting dominion which will not pass away. Unlike the fourth beast, which was destroyed, this new King’s kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. This kingdom corresponds to the stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands in Chapter 2 (Daniel 2:34-45). The stone crushed the kingdoms of men represented by the statue and filled the entire earth. This indicates that the seasons of history will pass directly from the Roman era to the Kingdom of God.

The Son of Man is the final king over the earth. His kingdom will last forever. He is, of course, Jesus Christ. Jesus quotes Daniel 7 and applies it to Himself. He does this while on trial, declaring Himself the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One (God), and “the Son of Man, who will be seen sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 12:61-62).

[does this sound, to you, like His Second Coming to the earth / RETURN to the earth time-slot?? (Rev19)]

It is indeed His Second Coming!

2) Act 1:9
¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And that is what will happen during His Second Coming when He gathers those of us who [[[[[REMAIN]]]]] until His Second coming!

 

[AandW]

Its the same as passover to all of Gods children where told to put blood on there door, so that there first born where not harmed, what would have happend if they didnt, but any how thats beside the point the fact is during a time of Gods wrath they where still present on earth. which is valid for end time wrath to. because some of the arguments is God will not have his church present in time of wrath. I can understand that but its not a valid argument for supporting pre trib rapture. I got into this dicussion a long time ago and made up my mind that pre trib rapture is a false teaching. It totaly messed my head up to be honest last time i got into it. and its starting to mess with my head again. so im going to bow out of this dicussion, If i was you i would bow out to its not a healthy discussion this one. Ive been doing a study on the soul and its far better to imagine your soul living in an eternal state of good mind.

AMEN, and even though Abraham interceded for Lot, God did not remove Lot but told Lot to GO and leave.

It's very much like Christ warning Judea in Matthew 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, [whoso readeth, let him understand:]

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
^
Just like God told Abraham what He was doing to Sodom, in Matthew, God is telling His Followers when you see what is written in Daniel happening, you need to get out of Dodge.

But in both Sodom and 70 A.D., God does not remove these people, He gives them warning and they [must obey and listen and go hide on their own account].

So to believe in a pre-trib rapture where some think God is going to [[remove]] His Followers, is going completely opposite in meaning to how God handled Lot in Sodom and His Followers in Judea where He tells them to go and hide.

This shows that God was the [SAME] in Sodom as He was in 70 A.D.
A pre-trib rapture means God is [NO longer being the SAME].
Which goes against the Verse in Hebrews:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[AandW]

2 Peter 2 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.

First of all, God did not spare Lot or the Judeans in 70 A.D.
God gave them an order to GO and Hide.
But if Lot was like his wife or did not go and hide, or had the Judeans not obeyed Christ and went and hid, they [ALL] would be dead.

Now concerning Noah.
God in the Garden of Eden had a Tree called the Tree of Life.
We know this was the FIRST example of Christ Yeshua.
So God had a plan that eventually led to His Messiah becoming our Sacrifice.
When Noah lived, it was [too early] for God's Messiah and [too early] to kill off all humans. [the Ark represented another Tree of Life/Messiah/Christ]

But Noah was only spared because his children was used to replenish the Earth with humans because God's Plan still included humans existing at least into the year 2021 [TODAY]!

If God was ready to kill [all humans] Noah would have not been spared.
So Noah is not even remotely close as a pre-trib example, because after the Tribulation, God is killing all sinners.
But Noah is an excellent example that God WARNED Noah like He did Lot in Sodom and the Judeans in 70 A.D.
If Noah does not build the Ark, Noah dies like Lot would have died if he refused to listen and go hide or like the Judeans would have died in 70 A.D. if they refused to go and hide.

Pre-Trib Rapture was not taught by Christ, the Apostles, Church Fathers, or the past 1800 years.
Pre-trib Rapture is the idealism of well known HERETIC.
Pre-trib Rapture is an idealism straight from the pits of Hell!

 

[OldSage]

Daniel again records that he continues looking in the night visions. He sees an incredible, wonderful sight. The new king is arriving with the clouds of heaven. This king is like a Son of Man. He walks up to the Ancient of Days, the eternal God on his fiery throne. He is presented before God so that God can examine and evaluate Him. God clearly approves of this Son of Man, because He gives Him dominion, Glory and a kingdom. All rulership, praise, and the entire earth are given to this king.

His subjects are all the peoples, nations and men of every language who will serve Him. This new king is unlike any king who came before Him. While the first three beasts rose and fell in power, this new king will rule over an everlasting dominion which will not pass away. Unlike the fourth beast, which was destroyed, this new King’s kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. This kingdom corresponds to the stone that was cut out of the mountain without hands in Chapter 2 (Daniel 2:34-45). The stone crushed the kingdoms of men represented by the statue and filled the entire earth. This indicates that the seasons of history will pass directly from the Roman era to the Kingdom of God.

The Son of Man is the final king over the earth. His kingdom will last forever. He is, of course, Jesus Christ. Jesus quotes Daniel 7 and applies it to Himself. He does this while on trial, declaring Himself the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One (God), and “the Son of Man, who will be seen sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 12:61-62).

It is indeed His Second Coming!
And that is what will happen during His Second Coming when He gathers those of us who [[[[[REMAIN]]]]] until His Second coming!

It is not his second coming though. If you go to Daniel 2
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed,

So during the reign of the 4th Kingdom, (not after it), Jesus was enthroned in Heaven. I.E after his resurrection in Ad 33

Now compare Daniel 7; first we Christ enthroned in Heaven in AD 33
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

then we see the 4th Kingdom destroyed and Israel, after being persecuted by the 4th beast, receiving the kingdom
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

 

[OldSage]

First of all, God did not spare Lot or the Judeans in 70 A.D.
God gave them an order to GO and Hide.
But if Lot was like his wife or did not go and hide, or had the Judeans not obeyed Christ and went and hid, they [ALL] would be dead.

Now concerning Noah.
God in the Garden of Eden had a Tree called the Tree of Life.
We know this was the FIRST example of Christ Yeshua.
So God had a plan that eventually led to His Messiah becoming our Sacrifice.
When Noah lived, it was [too early] for God's Messiah and [too early] to kill off all humans. [the Ark represented another Tree of Life/Messiah/Christ]

But Noah was only spared because his children was used to replenish the Earth with humans because God's Plan still included humans existing at least into the year 2021 [TODAY]!

If God was ready to kill [all humans] Noah would have not been spared.
So Noah is not even remotely close as a pre-trib example, because after the Tribulation, God is killing all sinners.
But Noah is an excellent example that God WARNED Noah like He did Lot in Sodom and the Judeans in 70 A.D.
If Noah does not build the Ark, Noah dies like Lot would have died if he refused to listen and go hide or like the Judeans would have died in 70 A.D. if they refused to go and hide.

Pre-Trib Rapture was not taught by Christ, the Apostles, Church Fathers, or the past 1800 years.
Pre-trib Rapture is the idealism of well known HERETIC.
Pre-trib Rapture is an idealism straight from the pits of Hell!

Lol. Get some sleep. Come back refreshed

 

[AandW]

It is not his second coming though. If you go to Daniel 2
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed,

So during the reign of the 4th Kingdom, (not after it), Jesus was enthroned in Heaven. I.E after his resurrection in Ad 33

Now compare Daniel 7; first we Christ enthroned in Heaven in AD 33
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

then we see the 4th Kingdom destroyed and Israel, after being persecuted by the 4th beast, receiving the kingdom
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

At Christ's Second Coming, He gathers those who Paul explains [[[[REMAINS]]]] or called the Elect, then He goes into Armageddon. After Armageddon, He sets up His Kingdom.
So yes, Daniel is discussing the Second Coming!

 

[AandW]

Lol. Get some sleep. Come back refreshed

You can't prove me wrong.
I am refreshed, I haven't been online in past 5 hours.

 

[OldSage]

At Christ Second Coming, He gathers those who Paul explains [[[[REMAINS]]]] or called the Elect, then He goes into Armageddon. After Armageddon, He sets up His Kingdom.
So yes, Daniel is discussing the Second Coming!

I (((((((((((((haven't)))))))))))) got a clue what you are talking about

 

[AandW]

I (((((((((((((haven't)))))))))))) got a clue what you are talking about

It definitely shows!

 

[AandW]

Revelation 16:1-14 explains the order of Events called the WRATH of God

Revelation 16:15 explains the Second Coming
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation explains AFTER Second Coming we go into ARMAGEDDON 16:16
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

After Armageddon, God sets up His Earthly Kingdom as King that you read in Daniel 7 for the 1,000 year Reign!

 

[AandW]

Revelation 16:1-14 explains the order of Events called the WRATH of God

Revelation 16:15 explains the Second Coming
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation explains AFTER Second Coming we go into ARMAGEDDON 16:16
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

After Armageddon, God sets up His Earthly Kingdom as King that you read in Daniel 7 for the 1,000 year Reign!

After 1,000 years, Satan is released for a little time.
Then followed by the Great White Throne Judgement [The BOOK(s) are Read].
Followed by Eternal Paradise or Eternal Damnation cast into the Lake of Fire!

 

[de-emerald]

The thousand years will not be a time of tribulation, but of world-wide peace. The following scripture pertains to some of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom:.

you indicated in a previous post there was.
(ahwatukees previous post)

What happens after the Tribulation - After the tribulation, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom on this earth. He will have the beast and the false prophet captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The wicked will be killed by the double-edge sword which proceeds form the Lord's mouth.
after the 1000 year reign of christ satan will be released and decieve many then God will reign fire down on them all.

this does look like more tribulation to me in the period of a thousand year reign of christ.

The tribulation period here is a specific time of tribulation, the long prophesied Day of the Lord. As Jesus said regarding this time period that it will be a time of great tribulation unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It is when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place.

Ok so now your saying there is tribulation in this period, after you said there wasnt, do you or dont you know how long the period of tribulation is for in this period. but as youve quoted this period is also a period of world wide peace. do you know how long that period is for, Now seeing as there is a period of great peace in this period and tribulation, would that mean that God children are present on earth, in a time of tribulation.

After a thousand years of peace with Satan being restricted in the Abyss so that he cannot deceive mankind, God is showing the man's heart is always turning away from him. For it is not until Satan is released that mankind once again listens to him and rebels against God. He will simply wipe them out in a moment with fire when they surround Jerusalem. That event is not the tribulation period.

Ok so now your saying theres no tribulation in this period either so God reigning down fire is not wrath at any people who have resorted to following satan again ?. Or none of Gods children will be present in this period either ?.

because you say Gods children will only return to earth (a new earth) after the great white throne Judgement. personaly speaking here and i dont want to fall out with you, but this pre trib rapture for the alive people on earth when tribulation starts in end times. is just a bit all over the place.