Scientific Proof that all things came into being through the word of God?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#1
John 1:1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and [b]the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

In 1994 Doron Witztum, Eliyahu Rips, and Yoav Rosenberg published an article in the journal Statistical Science. It was entitled Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis. This article describes an experiment which seems to show a remarkable proximity between names of rabbis and their dates of birth or death in the Book of Genesis. These names and dates occur as sequences of letters in the text which are the same distance apart. As an example of an Equidistant Letter Sequence (or, more briefly, an ELS) , it was noticed several decades ago by Rabbi Weissmandel that the word Torah occurs spelled out as T, O, R, H (in their Hebrew equivalents) in the Book of Genesis by starting from the first T. The 50th letter after that T is an O. The 50th letter after the O is an R. And the 50th letter after the R is H. In this example, the "skip length" is 50 letters. It turns out that TORH is spelled out more than 56,000 times in the Book of Genesis (with various skip lengths). Genesis itself is slightly more than 78,000 letters long.
The editor of Statistical Science, Professor Robert Kass, made the following remark about the article by Witztum, Rips, Rosenberg in his preface to that issue of the journal:

". . . When the authors used a randomization test to see how rarely the pattern they found might arise by chance alone they obtained a very highly significant result, with p=0.000016. Our referees were baffled: their prior beliefs made them think the Book of Genesis could not possibly contain meaningful references to modern-day individuals, yet when the authors carried out additional analyses and checks the effect persisted. The paper is thus offered to Statistical Science readers as a challenging puzzle." https://sites.math.washington.edu/~greenber/BibleCode.html
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,696
113
#3
Scientific Proof that all things came into being through the word of God?


Would not change the darkened heart of a rebel.

Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#4
Equidistant-letter sequences are not "proof" of anything of the sort. They are interesting to be sure, but the statistical research behind their "discovery" does not qualify as scientific. There was too much manipulation of the text, and the searches were far too contrived.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#5
Equidistant-letter sequences are not "proof" of anything of the sort. They are interesting to be sure, but the statistical research behind their "discovery" does not qualify as scientific. There was too much manipulation of the text, and the searches were far too contrived.
How would you design an experiment to prove that all things came into being through the word of God?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#6
Scientific Proof that all things came into being through the word of God?


Would not change the darkened heart of a rebel.

Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
There are 12 gates to the New Jerusalem, Paul talked about how he was given the gospel to the uncircumcision just as Peter had the gospel to the circumcision, perhaps this is the gospel to the statistician.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
113
#7
John 1:1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and [b]the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

In 1994 Doron Witztum, Eliyahu Rips, and Yoav Rosenberg published an article in the journal Statistical Science. It was entitled Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis. This article describes an experiment which seems to show a remarkable proximity between names of rabbis and their dates of birth or death in the Book of Genesis. These names and dates occur as sequences of letters in the text which are the same distance apart. As an example of an Equidistant Letter Sequence (or, more briefly, an ELS) , it was noticed several decades ago by Rabbi Weissmandel that the word Torah occurs spelled out as T, O, R, H (in their Hebrew equivalents) in the Book of Genesis by starting from the first T. The 50th letter after that T is an O. The 50th letter after the O is an R. And the 50th letter after the R is H. In this example, the "skip length" is 50 letters. It turns out that TORH is spelled out more than 56,000 times in the Book of Genesis (with various skip lengths). Genesis itself is slightly more than 78,000 letters long.
The editor of Statistical Science, Professor Robert Kass, made the following remark about the article by Witztum, Rips, Rosenberg in his preface to that issue of the journal:


". . . When the authors used a randomization test to see how rarely the pattern they found might arise by chance alone they obtained a very highly significant result, with p=0.000016. Our referees were baffled: their prior beliefs made them think the Book of Genesis could not possibly contain meaningful references to modern-day individuals, yet when the authors carried out additional analyses and checks the effect persisted. The paper is thus offered to Statistical Science readers as a challenging puzzle." https://sites.math.washington.edu/~greenber/BibleCode.html
True science does not prove the word of God as truth. Gods word is truth. Science that lines up with the Bible only proves that the science is true.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#8
True science does not prove the word of God as truth. Gods word is truth. Science that lines up with the Bible only proves that the science is true.
wow, well I guess that disproves the verse in Proverbs about it being the honor of kings to search out a matter.

Also I guess there is no way for us to confirm God's word that He is the only one that tells the end from the beginning.

Come to think of it there are quite a few bible verses this statement of yours seems to contradict.

We should tell the archaelogists to stop looking for Noah's ark, or Mt. Sinai, or those who are piecing together ancient manuscripts, and so much for Paul's word to be imitators of God, can't do that.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#10
Cute, you set your self up as judge and jury, provide 0 evidence, don't discuss the facts in any way, and then make it clear there is no way to set up the experiment.

The man who did sign off on this experiment was a world famous skeptic and the leading authority in this field of study. He did not want to sign off but when asked at least he did give them a standard they had to reach, a standard which is far higher than any other researcher ever had to reach, they had to use 1 million books as a control. It took them 4 1/2 years but they did it and he in turn was honorable enough to then sign off on the research and that is how it got published.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#11
Cute, you set your self up as judge and jury, provide 0 evidence, don't discuss the facts in any way, and then make it clear there is no way to set up the experiment.
I don't memorize every book I read, or every podcast I hear. The statements I made are drawn from several sources. I simply stated the facts as I understand them; that is not setting myself up as anything. I did discuss facts, and I said nothing about setting up any experiment; I merely answered your question directly and concisely.

The man who did sign off on this experiment was a world famous skeptic and the leading authority in this field of study. He did not want to sign off but when asked at least he did give them a standard they had to reach, a standard which is far higher than any other researcher ever had to reach, they had to use 1 million books as a control. It took them 4 1/2 years but they did it and he in turn was honorable enough to then sign off on the research and that is how it got published.
Your statements have the same evidentiary value as mine, so I will apply the same standard you used.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#12
I don't memorize every book I read, or every podcast I hear. The statements I made are drawn from several sources. I simply stated the facts as I understand them; that is not setting myself up as anything. I did discuss facts, and I said nothing about setting up any experiment; I merely answered your question directly and concisely.


Your statements have the same evidentiary value as mine, so I will apply the same standard you used.
Statistical analysis can calculate the odds that something happened by chance. Generally the standard in any scientific study is 5%, if the odds are 5% or greater that it happened by chance we do not see the results as statistically significant. The odds that this particular study happened by chance was less than 0.05% that is far less than the vast majority of what we call science. However, since then there have been many, many more codes discovered and when you look at the cumulative chance of all of them happening by chance the odds are so infinitesimally small we don't even have a word for it. This study simply looked for the names of 30 odd rabbis who were significant in Jewish history with their birthdate, city they were from and perhaps some other relevant information all in the same place. Since then they have branched out to look for 300 historical figures and key terms related to them all in the same place and in every case they found them. Then they have since increased that to look for anyone. They don't simply look for your name, they look for your parents name, the date of birth, the city you were born in, name of your spouse, your children.

The Bible told us all things came into being through the word of God. The scribes were strictly charged in the OT that if they got one letter out of place the whole world would be at risk. As believers we are told that we "speak things into being". So why is this so strange?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#13
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#14
Statistical analysis can calculate the odds that something happened by chance. Generally the standard in any scientific study is 5%, if the odds are 5% or greater that it happened by chance we do not see the results as statistically significant. The odds that this particular study happened by chance was less than 0.05% that is far less than the vast majority of what we call science. However, since then there have been many, many more codes discovered and when you look at the cumulative chance of all of them happening by chance the odds are so infinitesimally small we don't even have a word for it. This study simply looked for the names of 30 odd rabbis who were significant in Jewish history with their birthdate, city they were from and perhaps some other relevant information all in the same place. Since then they have branched out to look for 300 historical figures and key terms related to them all in the same place and in every case they found them. Then they have since increased that to look for anyone. They don't simply look for your name, they look for your parents name, the date of birth, the city you were born in, name of your spouse, your children.

The Bible told us all things came into being through the word of God. The scribes were strictly charged in the OT that if they got one letter out of place the whole world would be at risk. As believers we are told that we "speak things into being". So why is this so strange?
I've read the books too. Unlike you, I've also read the critics' assessments.

Instead of making assumptions about what I am or am not saying, please re-read my posts... carefully. I say exactly what I mean, and there is no need to extrapolate.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#15
I've read the books too. Unlike you, I've also read the critics' assessments.

Instead of making assumptions about what I am or am not saying, please re-read my posts... carefully. I say exactly what I mean, and there is no need to extrapolate.
You made three claims

1. It isn't scientific. What does that mean? Science is about observing phenomena that can be verified. This is an observable phenomena that can be verified and the odds of it occurring by chance can be measured. That by definition is scientific. That claim was a judgement and it is indefensible. Computer science was developed specifically to break codes. Of course it is scientific.

2. The text that they are using is considered one of the most rigorously meticulous texts of any book. Everyone has access to the text. It would be utterly impossible for anyone to go and change the text of the Old Testament as it is the most widely held text on this planet. So that claim is patently absurd on the surface.

3. The searches were contrived was your third claim. Why? They searched for names, people, places, dates. But OK, I asked you what you would search for and you refused to posit anything. The reason they did these searches is that the odds of finding a word like "John" in an ELS throughout the entire Bible is not all that great. But if you find the names of all 12 disciples of Jesus on the same page that has Isaiah 53 and on that same page you have "Jesus is my name" then it becomes much more significant because the text is clearly about Jesus, and the names of the disciples are directly related to Jesus as well.

I am familiar with the critics assessments. Some have been valuable criticism saying they mistranslated a word or something like that and those criticisms have helped make the process better. Others are simply ridiculous attempts by atheists who are terrified with the implication of this study.
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#16
John 1:1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and [b]the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

In 1994 Doron Witztum, Eliyahu Rips, and Yoav Rosenberg published an article in the journal Statistical Science. It was entitled Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis. This article describes an experiment which seems to show a remarkable proximity between names of rabbis and their dates of birth or death in the Book of Genesis. These names and dates occur as sequences of letters in the text which are the same distance apart. As an example of an Equidistant Letter Sequence (or, more briefly, an ELS) , it was noticed several decades ago by Rabbi Weissmandel that the word Torah occurs spelled out as T, O, R, H (in their Hebrew equivalents) in the Book of Genesis by starting from the first T. The 50th letter after that T is an O. The 50th letter after the O is an R. And the 50th letter after the R is H. In this example, the "skip length" is 50 letters. It turns out that TORH is spelled out more than 56,000 times in the Book of Genesis (with various skip lengths). Genesis itself is slightly more than 78,000 letters long.
The editor of Statistical Science, Professor Robert Kass, made the following remark about the article by Witztum, Rips, Rosenberg in his preface to that issue of the journal:


". . . When the authors used a randomization test to see how rarely the pattern they found might arise by chance alone they obtained a very highly significant result, with p=0.000016. Our referees were baffled: their prior beliefs made them think the Book of Genesis could not possibly contain meaningful references to modern-day individuals, yet when the authors carried out additional analyses and checks the effect persisted. The paper is thus offered to Statistical Science readers as a challenging puzzle." https://sites.math.washington.edu/~greenber/BibleCode.html
An interesting phenomenon especially considering the text was originally transmitted orally until about 500 BC or later (the book of Job is the oldest book).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
113
#17
wow, well I guess that disproves the verse in Proverbs about it being the honor of kings to search out a matter.

Also I guess there is no way for us to confirm God's word that He is the only one that tells the end from the beginning.

Come to think of it there are quite a few bible verses this statement of yours seems to contradict.

We should tell the archaelogists to stop looking for Noah's ark, or Mt. Sinai, or those who are piecing together ancient manuscripts, and so much for Paul's word to be imitators of God, can't do that.
If archaeologists find Noah's ark, does that prove the Bible is true? Or, is the Bible true regardless? Are we to walk by faith and not by sight? If scientists find things that disprove the Bible, who are you going to believe? The scientists or the Bible?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
31,138
5,562
113
#18
If archaeologists find Noah's ark, does that prove the Bible is true? Or, is the Bible true regardless? Are we to walk by faith and not by sight? If scientists find things that disprove the Bible, who are you going to believe? The scientists or the Bible?
People come to the truth from many different places. How about if archaelogists find Noah's ark will that cause some people to repent and receive the word of God?

If Mueller runs an orphanage does that mean the Bible is true? Wrong question, if Mueller has faith then shouldn't he also have works of faith. Why is a hospital or an orphanage a work of faith, a bible exposition is a work of faith, but a code breaker finding hidden codes in the Bible is not? Why not?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
113
#19
How about if archaelogists find Noah's ark will that cause some people to repent and receive the word of God?
I believe in the power of the word of God to transform lives. We preach the gospel, tell them the truth, and let God give the increase.

My point was, finding Noah's ark does not prove that the Bible is true. The Bible is true regardless if we find Noah's ark. Archaeologists would be better off searching the scriptures, then do their work based upon what the scriptures say. Faith come by hearing the word of God. An evil and adulterous generation looks for signs, yes?
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
#20


For those who believe, no evidence is necessary. For those who refuse to believe, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.

The Jews saw Jesus in the flesh, healing the sick and bringing the dead back to life. Still, they refused to believe. What will it take for them to believe? They need to be betrayed by the antichrist first before they will finally see that Jesus is the messiah.