Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
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S
well I don't mean to sink your boat (well actually I do but it's sinking anyway)
1. salvation is NOT election. Whosoever does not mean God picks like you are going to play on team salvation against the fire fodder team
2. salvation is God's grace given through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. most people try to avoid the refining fire and go to service with all the dross bubbling up on top. God refines us for service and anoints a person for service. most of us are not called in the sense so many believe as service. be a Christian where you are.
I agree with those who state the op is not defining Calvinism very well. I have actually studied it and the op misses the explanation
1. salvation is NOT election. Whosoever does not mean God picks like you are going to play on team salvation against the fire fodder team
2. salvation is God's grace given through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. most people try to avoid the refining fire and go to service with all the dross bubbling up on top. God refines us for service and anoints a person for service. most of us are not called in the sense so many believe as service. be a Christian where you are.
I agree with those who state the op is not defining Calvinism very well. I have actually studied it and the op misses the explanation
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Ephesians 2:8,9 do not say salvation is by faith alone: they say that by grace are you saved through faith, not of works.
John 5:24 says the one who is believing is having eternal life. It does not say the "moment one believes." Of course you are allowed to interpret it that way if you want, but the text does not say that.
John 10:27,28 - say that "my (Jesus') sheep are hearing my voice and I am knowing them, and they are following me. And to these sheep he is giving eternal life, and they will never perish" Exactly! Praise the Lord! A beautiful promise to all those who are sheep! Nothing is said at all about those who are not believing, and I see nothing mentioned at all about the "nanosecond one believes"
Those are valuable beautiful verses ! They give deep lasting assurance to all who have their faith and hope in Jesus Christ! PTL!
(But I do think you need to realize your doctrine is not stated in these verses. But if you want to believe your doctrine and then find it in Scripture, that is your prerogative!)
John 5:24 says the one who is believing is having eternal life. It does not say the "moment one believes." Of course you are allowed to interpret it that way if you want, but the text does not say that.
John 10:27,28 - say that "my (Jesus') sheep are hearing my voice and I am knowing them, and they are following me. And to these sheep he is giving eternal life, and they will never perish" Exactly! Praise the Lord! A beautiful promise to all those who are sheep! Nothing is said at all about those who are not believing, and I see nothing mentioned at all about the "nanosecond one believes"
Those are valuable beautiful verses ! They give deep lasting assurance to all who have their faith and hope in Jesus Christ! PTL!
(But I do think you need to realize your doctrine is not stated in these verses. But if you want to believe your doctrine and then find it in Scripture, that is your prerogative!)
Even Simpler: Calvin was UNbiblical!:
Calvinism = God “predestinated” some to hell? UNbiblical!
What Saith The Scripture?:
2Pe_3:9 The LORD Is not slack concerning His Promise, as
some men count slackness; but Is Longsuffering to us-ward,
Not Willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of The Truth.
Rom_8:29-30
For whom He Did Foreknow, He Also Did Predestinate To Be
Conformed To The Image Of His SON, that He might be The Firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom He Did Predestinate, them He also
called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.
God's Sound {sensible?} Doctrine!
Thus, God DID NOT “predestinate some to be saved, and others to hell!”
HE Did Foreknow "what we would choose!"
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
Calvinism = God “predestinated” some to hell? UNbiblical!
What Saith The Scripture?:
2Pe_3:9 The LORD Is not slack concerning His Promise, as
some men count slackness; but Is Longsuffering to us-ward,
Not Willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of The Truth.
Rom_8:29-30
For whom He Did Foreknow, He Also Did Predestinate To Be
Conformed To The Image Of His SON, that He might be The Firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom He Did Predestinate, them He also
called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.
God's Sound {sensible?} Doctrine!
Thus, God DID NOT “predestinate some to be saved, and others to hell!”
HE Did Foreknow "what we would choose!"
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
I don't have a boat. I am not currently in a boat. I had a car people euphemistically referred to as a boat, because it was good for only 8 mpg on a good day rolling down hill with the wind at my back. 😉
The election I'm referring to is indeed the election Calvin and others referred to, i.e., as it pertains to saints predestinated unto salvation. Jesus told His disciples, “You did not choose Me but I chose you” John 15:16.
I do agree God chooses whomever HE so desires (believers and unbelievers) according to HIS sovereign authority to accomplish whatever sovereign purpose HE has, e.g., Judas. Whomever God elects unto salvation, those elect are called to service to the glory of God to do, among other things, proclaim the gospel message to the lost.
The election I'm referring to is indeed the election Calvin and others referred to, i.e., as it pertains to saints predestinated unto salvation. Jesus told His disciples, “You did not choose Me but I chose you” John 15:16.
I do agree God chooses whomever HE so desires (believers and unbelievers) according to HIS sovereign authority to accomplish whatever sovereign purpose HE has, e.g., Judas. Whomever God elects unto salvation, those elect are called to service to the glory of God to do, among other things, proclaim the gospel message to the lost.
FreeGrace2 said:
Not sure?
Let's see what Jesus said.
In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes they have eternal life.
In John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Are you sure now?
Huh? I was trying to help you become sure.
Didn't Jesus quantify the issue?
Not sure?
Let's see what Jesus said.
In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe have (as in possess) eternal life. That means the MOMENT one believes they have eternal life.
In John 10:28 Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Are you sure now?
Huh? I was trying to help you become sure.
Didn't Jesus quantify the issue?
God does want none to perish, but HE knows most choose to reject HIM and will therefore end up in hell. And God acknowledged that many are on the broad way to eternal destruction, while few are on the narrow way to eternal life. It's our faithful service as believers to share the good news with the lost in hopes they might come to repentance and saving faith.
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
That's funny! But my claim is true, which I've already shown evidence. And there's tons more.
I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.
See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.
It seems anyone who explains what Calvinism never satisfies the Calvinists. But what's new.
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
That's funny! But my claim is true, which I've already shown evidence. And there's tons more.
I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.
See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.
It seems anyone who explains what Calvinism never satisfies the Calvinists. But what's new.
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".
Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
It seems you didn't look up any of the verses I cited. Which prove what I have said.
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".
Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
It seems you didn't look up any of the verses I cited. Which prove what I have said.
Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.
No, it doesn't say that. You show an adverb, but the verse has the verb "believes" and it's present tense. Just like "have" is present tense. So you have been reading it incorrected. Eternal life isn't something that keeps on giving. It's given and POSSESSED when one believes. That is what John 5:24 actually says.
That is the obvious meaning. And leave your adverbs out please. Since Jesus said those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, how could anyone claim that eternal life isn't given the MOMENT one believes, since AT the moment, the person IS a believer and therefore HAS eternal life.
I never said anything about nanoseconds in John 10:28. The point of the verse is that ALL recipients of eternal life, which from 5:24 includes everyone who has believed, shall never perish.
Well, I am just amazed at your naivety. Of course they do.
Those who believe have eternal life. John 5:24
Those who have eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
If you don't see eternal life clearly in these 2 verses, I don't think there's any help for you.
So you believe eternal security but don't see it in those 2 verses.
So where in the Bible do you find the teaching of eternal security?
No, it doesn't say that. You show an adverb, but the verse has the verb "believes" and it's present tense. Just like "have" is present tense. So you have been reading it incorrected. Eternal life isn't something that keeps on giving. It's given and POSSESSED when one believes. That is what John 5:24 actually says.
That is the obvious meaning. And leave your adverbs out please. Since Jesus said those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, how could anyone claim that eternal life isn't given the MOMENT one believes, since AT the moment, the person IS a believer and therefore HAS eternal life.
I never said anything about nanoseconds in John 10:28. The point of the verse is that ALL recipients of eternal life, which from 5:24 includes everyone who has believed, shall never perish.
Well, I am just amazed at your naivety. Of course they do.
Those who believe have eternal life. John 5:24
Those who have eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28
If you don't see eternal life clearly in these 2 verses, I don't think there's any help for you.
So you believe eternal security but don't see it in those 2 verses.
So where in the Bible do you find the teaching of eternal security?
FreeGrace2 said:
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".
Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
I know those "boats" well.
The problem is that the "election" that Calvin refers to isn't found in the Bible. So I ask if you could quote any verses that clearly indicate that God elects people to savlation.
This was said after Judas, who was elected back in John 6;70,71. And what did Jesus choose the 11 for? Bearing fruit. Not salvation.
In fact, in v.3 Jesus makes clear all 11 are already saved ("clean").
I am eagerly waiting for any verse that shows clearly that God chooses unconditionally to salvation. (Which is Calvin's definition).
Don't mean to rock your boat, but election isn't about salvation. Election is about service.
Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers. To be holy and blameless. That's service. The "us" in v.4 is clearly defined in v.19, "us who believe".
Now, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. John 6;70,71
I know those "boats" well.
The problem is that the "election" that Calvin refers to isn't found in the Bible. So I ask if you could quote any verses that clearly indicate that God elects people to savlation.
This was said after Judas, who was elected back in John 6;70,71. And what did Jesus choose the 11 for? Bearing fruit. Not salvation.
In fact, in v.3 Jesus makes clear all 11 are already saved ("clean").
I am eagerly waiting for any verse that shows clearly that God chooses unconditionally to salvation. (Which is Calvin's definition).
S
that's heavy man. real heavy. said in my best hippie voice even though I was never one. a little too young
anyone ever tell you that you are more than a little confusing? He saves those who believe...leaves me like...
no. not at all what I am saying. and nuh uh on all those verse that do not exist
well actually the Calvinists do a pretty good job. but I am not a Calvinist
anyone ever tell you that you are more than a little confusing? He saves those who believe...leaves me like...
no. not at all what I am saying.
and nuh uh on all those verse that do not existwell actually the Calvinists do a pretty good job. but I am not a Calvinist
When you don't believe God is able to choose whom HE wills, you have put God in a poorly constructed box.
Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
1 Thessalonians 1:4: "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you"
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth"
Romans 8:28: "And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are the called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect?"
Ephesians 1:1-11: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ. In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything"
Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
1 Thessalonians 1:4: "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you"
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth"
Romans 8:28: "And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are the called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect?"
Ephesians 1:1-11: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ. In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything"
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FreeGrace2 said:
I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.
Said the one who brings "team" to the discussion.
This is confusing?? 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
See? The Bible says what I believe and I quote the Bible. God DOES save those who believe.
FreeGrace2 said:
See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.
You used the word "annointed". Paul was chosen per Acts 9:15 and annointed per 1 Tim 2:7.
And, my bad. You wrote "annointed" and I read "appointed". Oops.
and nuh uh on all those verse that do not exist
Oh, don't do that. I love a challenge, and I actually have verses that say what I believe and post.
What do they do a good job of? I don't believe their theology.
So, you admire those with whom you do not associate with?
I don't understand your "team" response, but obviously salvation isn't election. And God doesn't unconditionally choose people to save. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so clearly.
Said the one who brings "team" to the discussion.
He saves those who believe...leaves me like...
See? The Bible says what I believe and I quote the Bible. God DOES save those who believe.
FreeGrace2 said:
See? You do agree with me. Being annointed for service is being chosen or elected for service. Plenty of verses that support that.
You used the word "annointed". Paul was chosen per Acts 9:15 and annointed per 1 Tim 2:7.
And, my bad. You wrote "annointed" and I read "appointed". Oops.
and nuh uh on all those verse that do not exist
well actually the Calvinists do a pretty good job. but I am not a Calvinist
So, you admire those with whom you do not associate with?