Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[JerryInBoston]

I never said that, so your question is quite ridiculous.

Of course the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. And believing comes from hearing the gospel, according to the Bible. Read Romans 10:14-16. And man believes from the heart. That means his/her own heart. Rom 10:9.


More ridiculous questions.

I guess you just don't grasp that God's holding man accountable proves beyond question/doubt that man is FREE to believe or reject what God says.

According to Calvinism, man is lowered to the status of a puppet or robot. And you probably aren't able to see that either.

Why does man's freedom to believe or reject scare Calvinists so much? Or is it just offending to them?

The idea that God unilaterally chose who would believe and therefore be saved is really just a very arrogant idea.

It allows the "chosen one" to feel special and better than the NON-chosen ones.

However, of course no self respecting Calvinist would ever agree to such a charge, even though it's true.

There is no other reason to believe Calvinism's claim about election. It appeals to arrogant people. Makes them feel special or better than others.

Titus 2:11 refutes the Calvinist notion of election to salvation. "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

Calvinists cannot believe this verse. For Calvinists, God's sovereign grace appears ONLY to those God chose who would believe and therefore be saved.

There is no grace in the lake of fire. Which is fine for the "lucky ones" who think that God chose them for heaven.

So, basically, God chooses unilaterally people for heaven and people for hell.

And there's no grace in that either. So either way you look at it, there is no grace in Calvinism, in spite of their very deceptive words "sovereign grace", which is no grace at all.

For Calvinists, God punishes with an eternity in the lake of fire for an action they were unable to make because God didn't allow them or cause them to believe.

The reality is that God's grace is for everyone. Romans 11:32 says so. "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

The verse isn't talking about "the elect", as Calvinists suppose.

Tell me, what caused you to believe?

 

[JerryInBoston]

The instant you trust in Christ, God accepts THAT FAITH, right then, to give the person the New birth.

This happens ONCE....... We are born again ONCE.

Not over time, and not based on how you behave later.

What caused you to believe?

 

[Kidron]

What caused you to believe?

My faith.

See, to "repent" is to turn from unbelief to Belief.

Its to stop being an unbeliever, and begin to be a Believer.

This is to come to the knowledge of the truth, and then BELIEVE IT.

"as many as believe,...... Jesus gives to them eternal life".

To come to faith in Christ is to hear the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit enlightens, but you have to believe it.

Christ said....>"if i be lifted up, i will draw ALL MEN TO ME".

See that Jerry?

"""""ALL MEN""""" are being drawn, enlightened....., but not all will believe.

John 3:16....>"whosoever WILL BELIEVE".........so that is a person's CHOICE........freewill.

 

[JerryInBoston]

My faith.

See, to "repent" is to turn from unbelief to Belief.

Its to stop being an unbeliever, and begin to be a Believer.

This is to come to the knowledge of the truth, and then BELIEVE IT.

"as many as believe,...... Jesus gives to them eternal life".

To come to faith in Christ is to hear the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit enlightens, but you have to believe it.

Christ said....>"if i be lifted up, i will draw ALL MEN TO ME".

See that Jerry?

"""""ALL MEN""""" are being drawn, enlightened....., but not all will believe.

John 3:16....>"whosoever WILL BELIEVE".........so that is a person's CHOICE........freewill.

What caused you to come to faith?

 

[Kidron]

What caused you to come to faith?

Hearing the gospel.

I had to hear it to believe it.

when i believed it, then my personal FAITH became this.....>"faith is counted as righteousness"......>"justification by faith".

 

[JerryInBoston]

Hearing the gospel.

I had to hear it to believe it.

when i believed it, then my personal FAITH became this.....>"faith is counted as righteousness"......>"justification by faith".

God's word caused you to come to faith. That is the power of God working in you. It's not something you did, but God working in you. Without God working in you, you'd not have come to faith.

 

[SophieT]

Exactly.
I have also brought out the carnal believer dynamic.

It is mostly pooo poooed

yeah I thought that was a good description ... I don't agree with gotquestios all the time, but I think they pretty much nailed it here

 

[SophieT]

FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, John 15 is about fellowship, not salvation. It seems a lot of believers are confused about that. Before Jesus said to abide in Him and He chose the 11, He began ch 15 by assuring the 11 that they were already saved (clean). This proves that "abiding" is not about staying saved.

I already responded to this but this is one of the most egregious errors you have posted

to abide in the vine, means to abide in Christ. Jesus said 'I am the true Vine. '

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


YOU are actually the confused believer here. Abiding in the vine does not mean fellowship. I cannot fathom how someone can manage to fall so far from the actual understanding of what Christ said here.

Frankly, those who are OSAS, will say that if you do not abide, you were never saved to begin with, but it does not read that way to me

 

[JerryInBoston]

Of course the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. And believing comes from hearing the gospel, according to the Bible. Read Romans 10:14-16. And man believes from the heart. That means his/her own heart. Rom 10:9.


More ridiculous questions.

I guess you just don't grasp that God's holding man accountable proves beyond question/doubt that man is FREE to believe or reject what God says.

According to Calvinism, man is lowered to the status of a puppet or robot. And you probably aren't able to see that either.

Why does man's freedom to believe or reject scare Calvinists so much? Or is it just offending to them?

The idea that God unilaterally chose who would believe and therefore be saved is really just a very arrogant idea.

It allows the "chosen one" to feel special and better than the NON-chosen ones.

However, of course no self respecting Calvinist would ever agree to such a charge, even though it's true.

There is no other reason to believe Calvinism's claim about election. It appeals to arrogant people. Makes them feel special or better than others.

Titus 2:11 refutes the Calvinist notion of election to salvation. "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

Calvinists cannot believe this verse. For Calvinists, God's sovereign grace appears ONLY to those God chose who would believe and therefore be saved.

There is no grace in the lake of fire. Which is fine for the "lucky ones" who think that God chose them for heaven.

So, basically, God chooses unilaterally people for heaven and people for hell.

And there's no grace in that either. So either way you look at it, there is no grace in Calvinism, in spite of their very deceptive words "sovereign grace", which is no grace at all.

For Calvinists, God punishes with an eternity in the lake of fire for an action they were unable to make because God didn't allow them or cause them to believe.

The reality is that God's grace is for everyone. Romans 11:32 says so. "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

The verse isn't talking about "the elect", as Calvinists suppose.

The Holy Spirit not only convicts you of sin, He also convicts you of the need for a Savior, and it is by that prompting by the Holy Spirit that moves (or causes) a person to come to faith.

Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Hearing the Word of God caused you to come to faith. It wasn't hearing Handel's Messiah that caused you to come to faith; it wasn't hearing a lofty philosopher wax eloquently about the human condition that caused you to come to faith; it was hearing the Word of God that caused you to come to faith. The Holy Spirit prompted you/caused you to come to faith by and through the Word of God. You did not come to saving faith on your own initiative, or under your own steam; it was God omnipresence that caused a conviction in your soul when you heard the gospel message that brought you to saving faith.

God's grace and God's will is sovereign and indescribably greater than man's so-called free will. When God wills someone to believe/come to repentance and faith, God will get HIS way, and God will cause that someone to come to repentance and faith, just like you came to faith by hearing the Word of God, just like I came to faith by hearing the Word of God, and just like others come to faith by hearing the Word of God. It is the work of God that causes a person to repent and believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no coming to faith without the prompting of/by the Holy Spirit.

This is true, yet isn't even close to the Calvinist claim that God chooses who will believe.

Acts 7:51 says clearly that men resist the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit doesn't go around twisting arms.

As Paul clearly and plainly writes: "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The Word of God is the cause; coming to faith is the effect.

The verse you are quoting from doesn't either say that or mean that. This is twisting the Word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you won't answer my questions. That is telling.

What??!! I resent your FALSE claim, esp since you don't answer my questions.

You agree God is sovereign, yet you say God does not choose those of whom He wants/wills to believe.

If it were true, the Bible would say so. You believe what the Bible doesn't teach.

That is not complete sovereignty, but watered down less than sovereign.

You see, it is you who don't understand what sovereignty means. To you, it apparently means puppetmaster or robot maker.

Paul writes that God's word causes people to come to faith. "Faith comes by hearing [the effect], and hearing by the word of God [the cause]."
God's grace saves. Your faith justifies.

See? The verse does NOT INCLUDE "causes people to come to faith". There are NO verses that teach that God causes anyone to believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's grace saves. Your faith justifies.

That's not Scriptural.

We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8. Paul's answer to the jailer was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

 

[FreeGrace2]

Tell me, what caused you to believe?

My heart. Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's how I believed the gospel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

YOU are actually the confused believer here. Abiding in the vine does not mean fellowship.

Yes, it does, O confused one.

I cannot fathom how someone can manage to fall so far from the actual understanding of what Christ said here.

So, what do think He meant?

Frankly, those who are OSAS, will say that if you do not abide, you were never saved to begin with, but it does not read that way to me

I have NEVER believed that. So, let's start over. Deal with my claims, not the claims of others who are confused

 

[JerryInBoston]

What??!! I resent your FALSE claim, esp since you don't answer my questions.


If it were true, the Bible would say so. You believe what the Bible doesn't teach.


You see, it is you who don't understand what sovereignty means. To you, it apparently means puppetmaster or robot maker.


See? The verse does NOT INCLUDE "causes people to come to faith". There are NO verses that teach that God causes anyone to believe.

I just gave you one, but you reject it. Oh well.

 

[JerryInBoston]

My heart. Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's how I believed the gospel.

All on your own?

My heart. Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's how I believed the gospel.

God had no part in causing you to believe?

 

[JerryInBoston]

My heart. Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's how I believed the gospel.

All on your own?

 

[fredoheaven]

The Holy Spirit not only convicts you of sin, He also convicts you of the need for a Savior, and it is by that prompting by the Holy Spirit that moves (or causes) a person to come to faith.

Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Hearing the Word of God caused you to come to faith. It wasn't hearing Handel's Messiah that caused you to come to faith; it wasn't hearing a lofty philosopher wax eloquently about the human condition that caused you to come to faith; it was hearing the Word of God that caused you to come to faith. The Holy Spirit prompted you/caused you to come to faith by and through the Word of God. You did not come to saving faith on your own initiative, or under your own steam; it was God omnipresence that caused a conviction in your soul when you heard the gospel message that brought you to saving faith.

God's grace and God's will is sovereign and indescribably greater than man's so-called free will. When God wills someone to believe/come to repentance and faith, God will get HIS way, and God will cause that someone to come to repentance and faith, just like you came to faith by hearing the Word of God, just like I came to faith by hearing the Word of God, and just like others come to faith by hearing the Word of God. It is the work of God that causes a person to repent and believe.

And what work of God is that? Is it conviction or belief? I think it is the person that may respond either to believe it or not. The Holy Spirit can do nothing to those who will not believe. John 3:18 is just a way to illustrate the fact of believing and not believing. The Holy Spirit works after the responses of men. Usual arguments of Calvinism say we are dead and the dead cannot receive/know things of the Spirit of God because he is spiritually discerned. If this is true, then the work of the Holy Spirit is after the belief of the person. This is quite true when Paul says in Eph. 1:13 i.e "trusted after they heard the word of truth". I read your line about the conviction of the Holy Spirit and where is that in the Bible? Thanks

 

[JerryInBoston]

And what work of God is that? Is it conviction or belief? I think it is the person that may respond either to believe it or not. The Holy Spirit can do nothing to those who will not believe. John 3:18 is just a way to illustrate the fact of believing and not believing. The Holy Spirit works after the responses of men. Usual arguments of Calvinism say we are dead and the dead cannot receive/know things of the Spirit of God because he is spiritually discerned. If this is true, then the work of the Holy Spirit is after the belief of the person. This is quite true when Paul says in Eph. 1:13 i.e "trusted after they heard the word of truth". I read your line about the conviction of the Holy Spirit and where is that in the Bible? Thanks

First off, we are all spiritually dead, sinful and fallen, completely unrighteous and wholly deserving of hell. None of can save ourselves, and it is only by God's sovereign authority that HE extends HIS sovereign grace to prompt those that will respond and finally do come to repentance and faith. As you point out Ephesians 1:13 "having heard and believed the word of truth. " The cause of belief is God's word.

God so loved the world that anyone that does come to faith will be saved and receive the gift of eternal life. The fact that Jesus is the only way is no secret, yet many who have heard the gospel message prefer to remain in darkness. Not everyone will not come to faith because not everyone can come to faith, but the elect do come to faith by the sovereign will of God. The non-elect will not come to repentance and faith because, by their own confessions, they do not want to come to repentance and faith; they would rather stay on the broad way of sinful hedonistic living and avoid the narrow path at all costs.

Omnipresent God is our guide, and works in our hearts and minds, causing some to choose to come to repentance and faith, while others HE causes to choose to be reprobates and stay reprobates.

Jesus says in John 16:8-10 that "He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned."

And in John 16:13 Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Guiding us into all truth includes giving us the knowledge of the truth of our fallen sinful nature and the knowledge of the truth of our need for the Lord and Savior Jesus. To the elect, HE causes to repent and come to faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Holy Spirit not only convicts you of sin, He also convicts you of the need for a Savior, and it is by that prompting by the Holy Spirit that moves (or causes) a person to come to faith.

Your claims continue to be unsupported from Scripture.

Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Hearing the Word of God caused you to come to faith. It wasn't hearing Handel's Messiah that caused you to come to faith; it wasn't hearing a lofty philosopher wax eloquently about the human condition that caused you to come to faith; it was hearing the Word of God that caused you to come to faith. The Holy Spirit prompted you/caused you to come to faith by and through the Word of God. You did not come to saving faith on your own initiative, or under your own steam; it was God omnipresence that caused a conviction in your soul when you heard the gospel message that brought you to saving faith.

Just talking points. There have been few verses in any of your posts.

God's grace and God's will is sovereign and indescribably greater than man's so-called free will.

Another hugely faulty presumption. As if God's sovereignty is in some kind of competition with man's freedom to choose.

In addition to a failure to understand 'grace', Calvinism fails to understand free will. It's not a power in any sense of the word.

It's a condition of freedom to make choices. There is no power in choice.

Again, you cannot explain how man is accountable for his actions if he doesn't have free choice.

Calvinism claims God makes all the choices. Nonsense. The Bible itself says that "man is without excuse".

Why? Because man is accountable for his actions. That REFUTES Calvinism, but your talking points keep you from seeing the truth.

When God wills someone to believe/come to repentance and faith, God will get HIS way, and God will cause that someone to come to repentance and faith, just like you came to faith by hearing the Word of God, just like I came to faith by hearing the Word of God, and just like others come to faith by hearing the Word of God. It is the work of God that causes a person to repent and believe.

How come you CAN'T find ANY verses that support these claims???

There is only a list of Calvinist talking points. Nothing from the Bible.