Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
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Where does the Bible SAY that God elects to salvation. In EVERY verse where the purpose of election is noted, it is to service, not salvation.
If God chooses who will believe, they certainly would have an excuse.
Their excuse would be "But You didn't choose me to believe".
The ONLY WAY men are without excuse is because they CAN believe, but REFUSE to do so.
If God chooses who will believe, they certainly would have an excuse.
Their excuse would be "But You didn't choose me to believe".
The ONLY WAY men are without excuse is because they CAN believe, but REFUSE to do so.
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God's election is unconditional. Nothing man does will invoke God's sovereign grace. Those who come to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit are elected by the sovereign grace of God, and those who never come to faith are reprobate who receive justice via hell. In neither case is God unjust: saving those that come to faith and condemning those that never come to faith. It is God who is in charge of HIS creation, and it is God who works in the hearts and minds of the elect who come to faith and are saved.
Romans "9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
"14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
"19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” 26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans "9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
"14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
"19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” 26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
This is what I asked:
"Where does the Bible SAY that God elects to salvation. In EVERY verse where the purpose of election is noted, it is to service, not salvation."
Your statement has no verses for support. Do you have any verses that teach what you claim?
I also said this:
"If God chooses who will believe, they certainly would have an excuse.
Their excuse would be "But You didn't choose me to believe".
The ONLY WAY men are without excuse is because they CAN believe, but REFUSE to do so."
Do you have a response to this?
"Where does the Bible SAY that God elects to salvation. In EVERY verse where the purpose of election is noted, it is to service, not salvation."
Your statement has no verses for support. Do you have any verses that teach what you claim?
I also said this:
"If God chooses who will believe, they certainly would have an excuse.
Their excuse would be "But You didn't choose me to believe".
The ONLY WAY men are without excuse is because they CAN believe, but REFUSE to do so."
Do you have a response to this?
That is precisely WHY God's election is NOT to salvation. Salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ. How many verses would like to review?
If God's election is to salvation, and God regenerates the 'elect' so they will believe, then God basically is choosing who will believe.
If that were true, then those NOT chosen would have a legitimate excuse for not believing. They couldn't since God didn't choose for them to believe.
How can you not see that?
In Calvinism, it is God who regenerates so the person can and will believe. So your statement is quite misleading. Yes, God DOES save those who believe, and 1 Cor 1:21 says that plainly.
But that is quite different than God choosing who will believe.
If God chooses who will believe, all of the so-called "non-elect" have a legitimate excuse. They COULDN'T BELIEVE because God didn't choose for them to believe.
So your statement is not only misleading, but devious. God cannot be fair or just IF He is the One who chooses who will believe but condemns those who He didn't choose to believe.
Yes, absolutely God IS in charge of HIS creation. But that doesn't mean He chooses who will believe and condemns those He didn't choose. That is just double predestination by another name; Calvinism.
Not one verse in this passage supports the claim that God chooses who will believe.
Please try again.
And please address my charge that if God chooses who will believe, He is totally unfair to condemn those He didn't choose to believe.
If God's election is to salvation, and God regenerates the 'elect' so they will believe, then God basically is choosing who will believe.
If that were true, then those NOT chosen would have a legitimate excuse for not believing. They couldn't since God didn't choose for them to believe.
How can you not see that?
In Calvinism, it is God who regenerates so the person can and will believe. So your statement is quite misleading. Yes, God DOES save those who believe, and 1 Cor 1:21 says that plainly.
But that is quite different than God choosing who will believe.
If God chooses who will believe, all of the so-called "non-elect" have a legitimate excuse. They COULDN'T BELIEVE because God didn't choose for them to believe.
So your statement is not only misleading, but devious. God cannot be fair or just IF He is the One who chooses who will believe but condemns those who He didn't choose to believe.
Yes, absolutely God IS in charge of HIS creation. But that doesn't mean He chooses who will believe and condemns those He didn't choose. That is just double predestination by another name; Calvinism.
Not one verse in this passage supports the claim that God chooses who will believe.
Please try again.
And please address my charge that if God chooses who will believe, He is totally unfair to condemn those He didn't choose to believe.
Everything is God's to do with as HE pleases in HIS sole sovereign discretion. God does with HIS creation as the potter does with the clay. HE can bring to perfection or HE can leave for destruction. No one saves themselves; only God saves. God is completely just in sending all to hell, but he chooses to save some by and through HIS sovereign grace. Did God choose you? Or did you choose God?
Sad that you don't see in Romans 9 that which it plainly states, namely: God unconditionally chooses/elects according to HIS sovereign will and good pleasure.
God's election is indeed unconditional. We are chosen/elected/saved by God's sovereign grace and justified by our faith.
You say it's unfair for God to choose some by HIS sovereign grace unto salvation and let others perish. Charles Haddon Spurgeon aptly stated: "Is there any among you here who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave off sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is.", says someone. "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No, I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you? For if you were elected, you would not like it, according to your own confession."
God's election is indeed unconditional. We are chosen/elected/saved by God's sovereign grace and justified by our faith.
You say it's unfair for God to choose some by HIS sovereign grace unto salvation and let others perish. Charles Haddon Spurgeon aptly stated: "Is there any among you here who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave off sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is.", says someone. "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No, I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you? For if you were elected, you would not like it, according to your own confession."
If God's election is to salvation, and God regenerates the 'elect' so they will believe, then God basically is choosing who will believe.
If that were true, then those NOT chosen would have a legitimate excuse for not believing. They couldn't since God didn't choose for them to believe.
How can you not see that?
This response to what I posted above indicates that you are OK with God's total unfairness, which you couch as "sovereignty".
The Bible tells us what God does. He OFFERS salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11), and is pleased to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).
All of that is fair. Calvinism's claims of election are totally unfair and quite unGodlike.
May I suggest that you pay attention to my posts. That is exactly what 1 Cor 1:21 says. And refutes Calvinism's unbiblical view of election.
This is typical of the unthinking notions of Calvinism. Hide behind talking points.
If God chooses who will believe and yet condemns those He never chose to believe because they didn't believe, that is the height of EVIL. Blaming someone for something they didn't have the ability to do.
But Calvinism is so blinded by their false notions, they can't even see straight.
The ONLY REASON God condemns those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED, per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 is because they HAVE THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE BUT REFUSE TO DO SO. Just as the Bible says. Acts 14:2 and 19:9. And 3 times in Revelation we find people who REFUSE to repent.
All of which refutes Calvinism.
Man is free and able to believe and God is pleased to save those who believe.
If that were true, then those NOT chosen would have a legitimate excuse for not believing. They couldn't since God didn't choose for them to believe.
How can you not see that?
This response to what I posted above indicates that you are OK with God's total unfairness, which you couch as "sovereignty".
The Bible tells us what God does. He OFFERS salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11), and is pleased to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).
All of that is fair. Calvinism's claims of election are totally unfair and quite unGodlike.
May I suggest that you pay attention to my posts. That is exactly what 1 Cor 1:21 says. And refutes Calvinism's unbiblical view of election.
This is typical of the unthinking notions of Calvinism. Hide behind talking points.
If God chooses who will believe and yet condemns those He never chose to believe because they didn't believe, that is the height of EVIL. Blaming someone for something they didn't have the ability to do.
But Calvinism is so blinded by their false notions, they can't even see straight.
The ONLY REASON God condemns those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED, per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 is because they HAVE THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE BUT REFUSE TO DO SO. Just as the Bible says. Acts 14:2 and 19:9. And 3 times in Revelation we find people who REFUSE to repent.
All of which refutes Calvinism.
Man is free and able to believe and God is pleased to save those who believe.
You really need to read my posts. I TOTALLY AGREE with this statement. What I totally reject is that election is to salvation.
All you've provided are Calvinist talking points. Rom 9 does NOT say anything about election to salvation.
I've asked for verses that teach or show that election is to salvation but you cannot provide any.
That is correct, per Eph 1:4. Every believer has been chosen for service.
You don't know what you are talking about and you cannot find any verse that says what you keep claiming.
Apparently you are unable to see the truth. IF God determines and therefore causes belief, YET sends to the lake of fire those He didn't choose to believe, that is what is unfair.
But you seem unable to grasp this very obvious truth. For God to condemn those He didn't' choose to believe is just what double predestination is. Some chosen for heaven and some chosen for hell. All without any input from the people.
It appears you have no idea what "fairness" means.
You can quote fallen human beings, but you can't quote from God's Word to defend yourself.
Show me any verse from the Bible that shows that God chooses who believes.
Since there are verses that show that God saves believers, you have already been refuted.
All you've provided are Calvinist talking points. Rom 9 does NOT say anything about election to salvation.
I've asked for verses that teach or show that election is to salvation but you cannot provide any.
That is correct, per Eph 1:4. Every believer has been chosen for service.
You don't know what you are talking about and you cannot find any verse that says what you keep claiming.
Apparently you are unable to see the truth. IF God determines and therefore causes belief, YET sends to the lake of fire those He didn't choose to believe, that is what is unfair.
But you seem unable to grasp this very obvious truth. For God to condemn those He didn't' choose to believe is just what double predestination is. Some chosen for heaven and some chosen for hell. All without any input from the people.
It appears you have no idea what "fairness" means.
You can quote fallen human beings, but you can't quote from God's Word to defend yourself.
Show me any verse from the Bible that shows that God chooses who believes.
Since there are verses that show that God saves believers, you have already been refuted.
I never said that, so your question is quite ridiculous.
Of course the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. And believing comes from hearing the gospel, according to the Bible. Read Romans 10:14-16. And man believes from the heart. That means his/her own heart. Rom 10:9.
More ridiculous questions.
I guess you just don't grasp that God's holding man accountable proves beyond question/doubt that man is FREE to believe or reject what God says.
According to Calvinism, man is lowered to the status of a puppet or robot. And you probably aren't able to see that either.
Why does man's freedom to believe or reject scare Calvinists so much? Or is it just offending to them?
The idea that God unilaterally chose who would believe and therefore be saved is really just a very arrogant idea.
It allows the "chosen one" to feel special and better than the NON-chosen ones.
However, of course no self respecting Calvinist would ever agree to such a charge, even though it's true.
There is no other reason to believe Calvinism's claim about election. It appeals to arrogant people. Makes them feel special or better than others.
Titus 2:11 refutes the Calvinist notion of election to salvation. "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."
Calvinists cannot believe this verse. For Calvinists, God's sovereign grace appears ONLY to those God chose who would believe and therefore be saved.
There is no grace in the lake of fire. Which is fine for the "lucky ones" who think that God chose them for heaven.
So, basically, God chooses unilaterally people for heaven and people for hell.
And there's no grace in that either. So either way you look at it, there is no grace in Calvinism, in spite of their very deceptive words "sovereign grace", which is no grace at all.
For Calvinists, God punishes with an eternity in the lake of fire for an action they were unable to make because God didn't allow them or cause them to believe.
The reality is that God's grace is for everyone. Romans 11:32 says so. "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
The verse isn't talking about "the elect", as Calvinists suppose.
Of course the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. And believing comes from hearing the gospel, according to the Bible. Read Romans 10:14-16. And man believes from the heart. That means his/her own heart. Rom 10:9.
More ridiculous questions.
I guess you just don't grasp that God's holding man accountable proves beyond question/doubt that man is FREE to believe or reject what God says.
According to Calvinism, man is lowered to the status of a puppet or robot. And you probably aren't able to see that either.
Why does man's freedom to believe or reject scare Calvinists so much? Or is it just offending to them?
The idea that God unilaterally chose who would believe and therefore be saved is really just a very arrogant idea.
It allows the "chosen one" to feel special and better than the NON-chosen ones.
However, of course no self respecting Calvinist would ever agree to such a charge, even though it's true.
There is no other reason to believe Calvinism's claim about election. It appeals to arrogant people. Makes them feel special or better than others.
Titus 2:11 refutes the Calvinist notion of election to salvation. "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."
Calvinists cannot believe this verse. For Calvinists, God's sovereign grace appears ONLY to those God chose who would believe and therefore be saved.
There is no grace in the lake of fire. Which is fine for the "lucky ones" who think that God chose them for heaven.
So, basically, God chooses unilaterally people for heaven and people for hell.
And there's no grace in that either. So either way you look at it, there is no grace in Calvinism, in spite of their very deceptive words "sovereign grace", which is no grace at all.
For Calvinists, God punishes with an eternity in the lake of fire for an action they were unable to make because God didn't allow them or cause them to believe.
The reality is that God's grace is for everyone. Romans 11:32 says so. "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
The verse isn't talking about "the elect", as Calvinists suppose.
God requires you to have faith.
This is of yourself.
If God made you believe, then He would not require it.
Consider.........>"faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God'.
Hearing what? ... = "The preaching of the CROSS".
God would not tell us to "go into all the world and PREACH" if He was making people believe.
So, a person hears the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit reveals it as TRUTH, and the person CHOOSES to believe or not.
If they choose to believe, then "faith is counted as righteousness", and they are "justified by their Faith".
Hebrews 12:2.......teaches YOU that Jesus is the author and finisher of OUR FAITH.
See that "OUR"?
That belongs to us, as we DECIDED to believe, or not.
This is of yourself.
If God made you believe, then He would not require it.
Consider.........>"faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God'.
Hearing what? ... = "The preaching of the CROSS".
God would not tell us to "go into all the world and PREACH" if He was making people believe.
So, a person hears the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit reveals it as TRUTH, and the person CHOOSES to believe or not.
If they choose to believe, then "faith is counted as righteousness", and they are "justified by their Faith".
Hebrews 12:2.......teaches YOU that Jesus is the author and finisher of OUR FAITH.
See that "OUR"?
That belongs to us, as we DECIDED to believe, or not.
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You believe that you keep yourself saved. This is proven by the fact that you believe that you can lose your salvation.
Now, the question is, for the 3rd time.......why do YOU not trust in Christ to Keep You Saved. ??????
""""""well, i do, as long as i do all the right things:."""""""""""
NO, wrong answer...........try again..
Why are you not trusting in Christ to KEEP YOU SAVED. ???
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So, you won't answer my questions. That is telling.
You agree God is sovereign, yet you say God does not choose those of whom He wants/wills to believe. That is not complete sovereignty, but watered down less than sovereign.
Paul writes that God's word causes people to come to faith. "Faith comes by hearing [the effect], and hearing by the word of God [the cause]." God's grace saves. Your faith justifies.
You agree God is sovereign, yet you say God does not choose those of whom He wants/wills to believe. That is not complete sovereignty, but watered down less than sovereign.
Paul writes that God's word causes people to come to faith. "Faith comes by hearing [the effect], and hearing by the word of God [the cause]." God's grace saves. Your faith justifies.