The rapture and "the tribulation"

[Runningman]

i belive the rapture already happend some stayed as truest belivers and some stayed as undecided but weve picked up a few and thats greate i mean its rilly Just GREAT

The rapture, also known as the gathering to Christ, having already occured, is the same deception that Paul warned the church at Thessaloniki to not believe.

The requirements for the rapture have not occured yet, namely the return of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Blade]

Thank you.. I mean that but I stop because you said "This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today. It's roots can be traced back to the Plymouth Brethren in 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:"

Something I do not say is you didn't search on this. 300-400Ad Hymn writer and preacher wrote about Jesus coming back before the great tribulation. <--this is not the only one. Many preachers that are known have said this also and they bring up even more as in Perry Stone. Hes talked about this and others. Really? Even Paul said "WE" which remain". It never got started in 1830 or what ever. There is much more to this a man on TBN had a show many years ago talked about that hymn writer showed the scrolls but 69 weeks has passed. When that 70 week happens we don't know. Thats 7 years Israel owes God. This has been always about Israel.

Had this book for awhile and was just now reading it. This man went into great depths. Talked about so many 'words". One word only used twice. Backed up everything with the word. I will say Jesus was jewish.. shocker huh. They the Jewish people had all kinds of traditions customs. When Jesus in John 14? Talked about going back to His Fathers house to make us a home. They would know. An old Jewish wedding. I know it well. This time this guy in this book.. wow so many Jewish words lol. A price was paid for the bride. Son then goes back to his fathers house to make them a place. She stays behind always watching ready and back then that candle had to be lit always oil in it. About a year later he comes back with some friends mostly at night makes a loud noise so she knows hes coming. Takes her back to his fathers house where both . about a week.

See for me this is not proof. For me it has to be written. To many twist verses into saying something they do not mean. I can't find the verse for PRE MID POST. Hmm so what do I do? If the owner of the house knew what time the thief was coming.. the owner would not have been robbed. I only have this moment. I could die 1min from now. So looking up.. expecting my lord my savior now. To be living for Him every moment. To always be thinking about Him! HOW Is that wrong? Your are not right.. I am not right. Get over it.

One only we see.. the other every eye will see. One no saints come with Him.. one the saints do come with Him.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The word "trinity" isn't there either but the concept is. The word "rapture" is only found in the Vulgate, it's not in Protestant Bibles; but the idea is. Likewise, you won't find PRE, MID or POST. It's not spelled out that clearly; that's why there's so much disagreement.

To me there seems to be a better case for a later rapture, though I'm still undecided on exactly when this will take place. The clearest scripture on it is Matthew 24:29-30: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." I know, pre-tribbers will say that's not the rapture but the second coming; but for many reasons which I don't have time to go into right now I disagree.

 

[JtSname]

The rapture, also known as the gathering to Christ, having already occured, is the same deception that Paul warned the church at Thessaloniki to not believe.

The requirements for the rapture have not occured yet, namely the return of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

yes the day of christ has come i just feel real small but you guys will see in good time the greate funny to behold

 

[HisKid]

i belive the rapture already happend some stayed as truest belivers and some stayed as undecided but weve picked up a few and thats greate i mean its rilly Just GREAT

rilly?

 

[Absolutely]

I don't believe we're there yet and I don't care to speculate on how close we are.

The reason I don't believe we're there is because of Daniel 9:27:

"And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate. . ."

The final seven years will commence with a seven-year covenant of some sort; possibly a peace treaty between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations brokered by the Antichrist. Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4:

"Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, 'There is peace and security,' then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief."

Those who are awake and watching will see this covenant for what is. But those who are asleep will be taken by surprise when the tribulation starts.

Of all the possible options, the pre-tribulation rapture is the least likely in my opinion.

Rev 14 takes pre and mid off the table.

 

[HisKid]

Rev 14 takes pre and mid off the table.

If we are interpreting it correctly.

 

[Omegatime]

I would like to comment on the Day of the Lord. If you believe what is written in these scriptures in 2 Thess. 2, then the Day of the Lord cannot possibly start till after the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God. Day of the Lord is what we seek even tho it is a time of doom, gloom, destruction, chaos and death of many. The prophet Joel said "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord", and yet Peter said Great and Glorius Day of the Lord in Acts 2. This Day is both, terrible for the unrighteous, and glorious for the righteous.

Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,[d]
and he will reign forever and ever.”

“We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty,
who are and who were,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
So, unless you believe Revelations is not in order, Here is another case near the mid-trib point when the Lord begins to reign.

Also the prophet Daniel said in Dan 12--12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
This is 75 days later then when the antichrist takes his seat in the middle of the tribulation ( 1260 days)

 

[HisKid]

I would like to comment on the Day of the Lord. If you believe what is written in these scriptures in 2 Thess. 2, then the Day of the Lord cannot possibly start till after the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God. Day of the Lord is what we seek even tho it is a time of doom, gloom, destruction, chaos and death of many. The prophet Joel said "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord", and yet Peter said Great and Glorius Day of the Lord in Acts 2. This Day is both, terrible for the unrighteous, and glorious for the righteous.

Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,[d]
and he will reign forever and ever.”

“We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty,
who are and who were,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
So, unless you believe Revelations is not in order, Here is another case near the mid-trib point when the Lord begins to reign.

Also the prophet Daniel said in Dan 12--12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
This is 75 days later then when the antichrist takes his seat in the middle of the tribulation ( 1260 days)

It Revelation, not Revelations.

 

[glen55]

I am fairly new to Biblical studies and have been read some scholarly articles in the field of eschatology. I have studied the Bible in some depth in the past five years or so.

I think it is good to be aware that there is a debate amongst scholars as to whether it is appropriate to use the term "the tribulation" to refer to a 7 year period of God's wrath is correct. I posted below the three most commonly held views and their positions regarding the timing of the rapture.

Feel free to explain your reasoning as to why you think we currently are in "the tribulation" or not. Also, you can explain why you hold to a certain rapture position if you would like.

• A. Pre-Tribulational Raptures
  This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today. It's roots can be traced back to the Plymouth Brethren in 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

1. The final 7 year period of the world is called the tribulation.
2. The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
3. The entire 7 year period is considered the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
4. Since the church is not destined for God's wrath, then the church is raptured prior to the 7 year period.
5. The rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.

B. Mid-Tribulation Rapturism
This view is even more recent than pre-trib, becoming popular in 1941. This view believes:

1. The final 7 year period of the world is called the tribulation.
2. The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
3. The last 3.5 years are considered the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
4. Since the church is not destined for God's wrath, then the church is raptured at the mid-way point.

C. Post-Tribulation Rapturism
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion during the time of the reformation, but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are alot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

• The church must endure the entire 7 year period, to be raptured at the end of the tribulation.
• God will protect his children through His wrath.
  I've tried to explain these views as simply as I could. While there are variations of each of these views, as a whole this is basically what each believes. Each of these uses scripture to support and build its case, but each has its particular problems.
• The church must endure the entire 7 year period, to be raptured at the end of the tribulation.
• God will protect his children through His wrath.

https://pluto.sitetackle.com/15974/?subpages/Oct.252010---The-Case-for-the-Prewrath-Rapture.shtml

Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

No sign happens that flesh and blood see's.


Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

No sign happens that flesh and blood see's.


Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yes, the words the Lord spoke in the above passages are true. So are the following scriptures when the Lord told us what to look for when the disciples asked Him, "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"


3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[HisKid]

Yes, the words the Lord spoke in the above passages are true. So are the following scriptures when the Lord told us what to look for when the disciples asked Him, "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"


3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We shall experience many horrific and awful things and die gruesome deaths. Let us keep the faith while doing so.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think it is good to be aware that there is a debate amongst scholars

"Scholars" today are probably the least reliable Bible students, and they generally use their scholarship in a negative manner. Christians who have taken the time to study Scripture in depth are probably better equipped than any scholars to discuss eschatology. And nothing is more consistent with Gospel truth than a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which includes all the saints -- the Divine Bridegroom comes for His Bride at this time following which we see the Marriage of the Lamb.

 

[ZNP]

I view the rapture in light of God's judgement. My first question is the same question you would ask if you were taking a test or competing in the olympics. When do I compete would be the last question you would ask. Who cares if you know the entire timeline for the tribulation and when the rapture takes place if the Lord's response is "depart from me, I never knew you". On the other hand if you do know the Lord and spend time in fellowship with Him every day and yet don't know the correct timeline for the tribulation is the Lord really going to say "depart from me you who didn't believe in a pre tribulation rapture"?

That said, I also saw there was a very interesting correlation between the teaching of the Pharisees concerning keeping the Sabbath at the time of the Lord's earthly ministry with the teaching of bible scholars in the major denominations concerning the rapture. Just as the Sabbath seemed to be the "third rail" 2,000 years ago it is the same today with the rapture "no one knows the day or the hour" is used to teach people not to watch for the Lord's coming, not to discuss the prophecies. Well Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath and He is also the Lord of the rapture.

So I have a blog where I have been collecting verse references throughout the Bible on the rapture. It is called Summary of Bible references on the rapture.

While doing this search I have discovered quite a few brothers on the internet that refer to themselves as "watchmen". I don't agree with everything they say, I often leave critical comments (that I think are constructive), but they also greatly help you see a number of different verses in light of the Lord's coming. It is valuable discussion, investigation and research. This is what the Lord said when He told us to "watch".

Now I focused on the signs that would tell you when the first rapture would be. I realize there is a verse that says no one knows the day or the hour. However, there are other verses that say "you will see the day approaching". How? What are the signs that tell us the day is approaching? Also, can we know the year? Can we know if it will happen during a worldwide pandemic? Is the USA in Bible prophecies and if so what does it say about the USA? What about the mortgage meltdown and 911, are those in the Bible?

I have been shocked at how many verses are involved in telling us the whole story.

https://christianchat.com/blogs/sum...es-on-the-rapture.197802/page-70#post-4620508

 

[glen55]

Yes, the words the Lord spoke in the above passages are true. So are the following scriptures when the Lord told us what to look for when the disciples asked Him, "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"


3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We were also told he would be with in us, the outside return is not for sons of God who like Jesus know the kingdom is within the heart, death is shown victory during each persons breaking the info under the sun. secular history is nothing new under the sun for waiters of Jesus that is in each man, knowing that is a mystery.

2Cor 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Eph 5: 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I view the rapture in light of God's judgement. My first question is the same question you would ask if you were taking a test or competing in the olympics. When do I compete would be the last question you would ask. Who cares if you know the entire timeline for the tribulation and when the rapture takes place if the Lord's response is "depart from me, I never knew you". On the other hand if you do know the Lord and spend time in fellowship with Him every day and yet don't know the correct timeline for the tribulation is the Lord really going to say "depart from me you who didn't believe in a pre tribulation rapture"?

It's not as simple as that, ZNP. By believing and teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church when He returns to the earth to end the age, would be putting the church through God's wrath in it entirety. That person is teaching new believers that they are saved and have eternal life, yet they will remain on the earth exposed to God's entire wrath, all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

They are not truly believing that Jesus took up upon himself the wrath that we deserved, satisfying it completely. And which is why scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Instead, to circumvent this truth, the state that it is speaking only about God's wrath at the GWTJ, which would be saying that we are saved from God's ultimate wrath, but not His coming wrath upon the earth.

This would be akin to during Paul's time when Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. You'd think that this would not be eternal life threatening, yet Paul called it "Godless chatter" and that this teaching would spread like gangrene and that because of it they had wandered away from the truth and were undermining the faith of some. So too, to believe and teach that the Lord is going to put His bride though the same wrath as the wicked, is a big issue. Those who do so do not know the nature of the Lord, in that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, which is what that enter seven years is going to be, God pouring His unprecedented wrath out upon the wicked.

Those who believe and teach this are speaking from both sides of their mouths. For scripture states that when we believed that we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. However, according to their teaching, they obviously really don' t believe that.

They will say, "God will protect the church during His wrath" which demonstrates that they do not understand the severity of the coming seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. There will be no Ark's to get on and no small cities to flee to.

They also do not take into account that the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. It is those who become believers after the church has been gathered, some being killed during the first 3.5 years and others being killed during the last 3.5 years, who are the great tribulation saints.

Those who believe and teach this are looking for God's wrath instead of the imminent return of the Lord to gather His church and are thereby not believing in His promise.

 

[ZNP]

It's not as simple as that, ZNP.

No of course not, which is why I wrote much more that you cut out.

However, I stand by the basic principle, worshipping the Lord and having a close personal fellowship so that you walk in the light of His word is what is needed to be raptured. Having a clear understanding of eschatology is not.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

No of course not, which is why I wrote much more that you cut out.

However, I stand by the basic principle, worshipping the Lord and having a close personal fellowship so that you walk in the light of His word is what is needed to be raptured. Having a clear understanding of eschatology is not.

Yes, that’s a good reminder for us.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."

Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.

 

[ZNP]

Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."

Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.

So the Lord returning sitting on a white horse with the armies of heaven arrayed in fine linen following Him is different from the rapture you refer to. That means you have two events, the rapture after the tribulation and this event when the Lord comes to rescue Israel.

Now where does this event fit into your schema? Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Also, what about the story of one being taken and one left?

What about the parable of the ten virgins where some are not ready with lamps filled with oil and are told to go buy the oil from the two witnesses?