The rapture and "the tribulation"

[ZNP]

Sometimes ppl do change their minds, but it can take awhile usually. It can often benefit your own self, strengthening your own position with new info etc. It's also good exercise to discuss differences using calm and friendly language. Some people cannot have a discussion without throwing insults and ad hominems at the other side.

I am interested in discovering insight into the word, but it seems the majority of what you get is simply opinions and a lot of chaff.

 

[HisKid]

Sometimes ppl do change their minds, but it can take awhile usually. It can often benefit your own self, strengthening your own position with new info etc. It's also good exercise to discuss differences using calm and friendly language. Some people cannot have a discussion without throwing insults and ad hominems at the other side.

But why is this about strengthening your own position? This isn't even about you.

 

[ewq1938]

But why is this about strengthening your own position? This isn't even about you.

Of course it is.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[HisKid]

Of course it is.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

No, in fact, it has nothing to do with you. If you want to study to show yourself approved unto God, then go to God with your beliefs. When you want to show yourself approved unto men because of your pride, you have earned your reward, be it acceptance or rejection.

You think you are rightly dividing the word because that is your opinion about yourself. God will be the judge of that. Otherwise you are just hot air blowing in the wind. This life, everything, is about Jesus... it is not about you.

 

[ewq1938]

No, in fact, it has nothing to do with you. If you want to study to show yourself approved unto God, then go to God with your beliefs. When you want to show yourself approved unto men because of your pride, you have earned your reward, be it acceptance or rejection.

Studying the bible and discussing that with other Christians is not prideful. It's normal Christian behavior. It's studying to show yourself approved before God.

 

[HisKid]

Studying the bible and discussing that with other Christians is not prideful. It's normal Christian behavior. It's studying to show yourself approved before God.

No, it's not. It is debating another human about what you believe versus what they believe. That is all. It is basically bickering to no end and for no profit to anyone.

 

[ewq1938]

No, it's not. It is debating another human about what you believe versus what they believe. That is all. It is basically bickering to no end and for no profit to anyone.

It's like sometimes but it's good and profitable other times. Clearly you just want to endlessly argue which is a waste of time. Bye.

 

[HisKid]

It's like sometimes but it's good and profitable other times. Clearly you just want to endlessly argue which is a waste of time. Bye.

It profits nobody. It may only serve to profit your ego because you believe you are "right".

Bye to you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

What is the purpose of this exchange? Nobody here will change anyone's mind. It seems futile and just a time-killer.

The only one I see here wasting everyone's time is you. Are you trying to derail the thread?

 

[Absolutely]

Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."

Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.

Re read it.
Angels gather .....NOT Jesus

From heaven....NOT earth.

In rev 14 JESUS GATHERS ALONE.
IN MAT 25 Jesus gathers ALONE.

In rev 19 Jesus returns AFTER THE TRIB ON HORSES WITH ZERO GATHERING.

In acts 1 It is declared Jesus will return in a manner with no horses, with his people present, with no warring attitude, at a time of peace,.

In the last supper dialoge Jesus declares a supper in heaven, and mansions in heaven and both are for his people IN RESURRECTED BODIES. Because disembodied spirits do not eat and drink.
All of that in heaven....which only pretrib rapture allows.

Your doctrine is one of omission and reframing.
Any of the pretrib verses takes postrib rapture off the table....bog time.

 

[Absolutely]

Just wanted to pick up where I left off yesterday. Matthew 24:29-31 says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Okay, this is the rapture, and it says this will happen "after the tribulation." Compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."

Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure.

"""This is also the rapture. Note the similarities: "angels" and "voice of an archangel"; "loud trumpet call" and "sound of the trumpet."Another reason this is clearly the rapture is because in this scenario Christ is calling His elect to Himself. The second coming is totally different. See Revelation 19:11-14:"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."Here He's riding a white horse and returning with his elect—who are arrayed in fine linen, white and pure."""



How can you read that and get it backwards?
The white horses are staged and ready to come down to earth.
Of course his elect are gathered FROM HEAVEN to MOUNT HORSES.
How else would they be there ?
It even says, in COMPLETE opposite of your interpretation, "the bride has become the wife..."



AHEM....IN HEAVEN.

 

[Absolutely]

So the Lord returning sitting on a white horse with the armies of heaven arrayed in fine linen following Him is different from the rapture you refer to. That means you have two events, the rapture after the tribulation and this event when the Lord comes to rescue Israel.

Now where does this event fit into your schema? Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Also, what about the story of one being taken and one left?

What about the parable of the ten virgins where some are not ready with lamps filled with oil and are told to go buy the oil from the two witnesses?

YES
There are 2 escape verses.
Postribbers are unaware and skip them.

 

[Absolutely]

It says: "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." The four winds are the four directions on earth; the four winds, four directions, four quarters, etc.

One end of heaven to the other means the whole world. The Greek ouranōn means "visible sky" or "atmosphere." It's not the talking about the third heaven where the Lord is.

Mat 5:19
"Whosoever therefore shall
break one of these least
commandments, and shall
teach men so, he shall be called
the least in the kingdom of
heaven: but whosoever shall do
and teach [them], the same
shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven."

Same word.ouranon.
You were sayin?????

 

[Absolutely]

Mat 5:19
"Whosoever therefore shall
break one of these least
commandments, and shall
teach men so, he shall be called
the least in the kingdom of
heaven: but whosoever shall do
and teach [them], the same
shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven."

Same word.ouranon.
You were sayin?????

Btw
Thanks for showing us the gathering after the trib is from heaven...not the sky.

Pretrib rapture affirmed by postribbers.

 

[HisKid]

The only one I see here wasting everyone's time is you. Are you trying to derail the thread?

Then someone, please, get to the point already.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Then someone, please, get to the point already.

Precious friend, I believe I can do that; point is:

The church, Which is HIS Body Of CHRIST, Today, Under
God's PURE GRACE, has had tribulation for Nearly 2000 years:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have Peace with
God through our LORD JESUS CHRIST: By Whom also we
have access by faith into This GRACE Wherein we stand,
and rejoice in Hope of The Glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory {cp} in tribulations also: knowing
that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience;
and experience, Hope: And Hope maketh not ashamed; because
The Love Of God Is Shed Abroad in our hearts By The Holy Ghost
Which Is Given Unto us!"
(Romans_5:1-5 KJB!) {cp 2 Corinthians 11:23-30 KJB!}

The END of our suffering and tribulation is our
GREAT GRACE Departure {aka "rapture"} To HEAVEN!
(The Revelation Of The MYSTERY In Romans - Philemon KJB!)

This must not be Confused With, But Must Be:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

Prophecy in Genesis - John, Hebrews - Revelation:

Christ taught {Earthly} ISRAEL that THEY and the UNbelieving
nations Will, on the earth, go through the GREAT tribulation:

Mat_24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since
the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
(cp Revelation 7:14 KJB!)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[Absolutely]

Precious friend, I believe I can do that; point is:

The church, Which is HIS Body Of CHRIST, Today, Under
God's PURE GRACE, has had tribulation for Nearly 2000 years:

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have Peace with
God through our LORD JESUS CHRIST: By Whom also we
have access by faith into This GRACE Wherein we stand,
and rejoice in Hope of The Glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory {cp} in tribulations also: knowing
that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience;
and experience, Hope: And Hope maketh not ashamed; because
The Love Of God Is Shed Abroad in our hearts By The Holy Ghost
Which Is Given Unto us!"
(Romans_5:1-5 KJB!) {cp 2 Corinthians 11:23-30 KJB!}

The END of our suffering and tribulation is our
GREAT GRACE Departure {aka "rapture"} To HEAVEN!
(The Revelation Of The MYSTERY In Romans - Philemon KJB!)

This must not be Confused With, But Must Be:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

Prophecy in Genesis - John, Hebrews - Revelation:

Christ taught {Earthly} ISRAEL that THEY and the UNbelieving
nations Will, on the earth, go through the GREAT tribulation:

Mat_24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since
the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
(cp Revelation 7:14 KJB!)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

Yep

 

[Tinkerbell725]

https://www.facebook.com/1522642377960072/posts/3611673379056951

 

[Absolutely]

https://www.facebook.com/1522642377960072/posts/3611673379056951

When those earthquakes appear it could be hell is enlarging herself.
May be the sadest news in the universe

 

[MattforJesus]

I am fairly new to Biblical studies and have been read some scholarly articles in the field of eschatology. I have studied the Bible in some depth in the past five years or so.

I think it is good to be aware that there is a debate amongst scholars as to whether it is appropriate to use the term "the tribulation" to refer to a 7 year period of God's wrath is correct. I posted below the three most commonly held views and their positions regarding the timing of the rapture.

Feel free to explain your reasoning as to why you think we currently are in "the tribulation" or not. Also, you can explain why you hold to a certain rapture position if you would like.

• A. Pre-Tribulational Raptures
  This is by far, the most common viewpoint in America today. It's roots can be traced back to the Plymouth Brethren in 1830, although it did not really become prevalent in America until the early 1900's. Pre-trib teaches this:

1. The final 7 year period of the world is called the tribulation.
2. The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
3. The entire 7 year period is considered the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
4. Since the church is not destined for God's wrath, then the church is raptured prior to the 7 year period.
5. The rapture is considered to be an "any moment" event.

B. Mid-Tribulation Rapturism
This view is even more recent than pre-trib, becoming popular in 1941. This view believes:

1. The final 7 year period of the world is called the tribulation.
2. The last 3.5 years are called the Great Tribulation.
3. The last 3.5 years are considered the wrath of God or the Day of the Lord.
4. Since the church is not destined for God's wrath, then the church is raptured at the mid-way point.

C. Post-Tribulation Rapturism
Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion during the time of the reformation, but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are alot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers believe:

• The church must endure the entire 7 year period, to be raptured at the end of the tribulation.
• God will protect his children through His wrath.
  I've tried to explain these views as simply as I could. While there are variations of each of these views, as a whole this is basically what each believes. Each of these uses scripture to support and build its case, but each has its particular problems.
• The church must endure the entire 7 year period, to be raptured at the end of the tribulation.
• God will protect his children through His wrath.

https://pluto.sitetackle.com/15974/?subpages/Oct.252010---The-Case-for-the-Prewrath-Rapture.shtml

Daniel's 70th week has not started yet.

Israel has 70 weeks to be in the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior which they have not done yet so the 70th week could not of happened.

The 70th week, 7 years, is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ and when they do He will end sin on earth, and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

The 70th week will start when the New Age Christ establishes peace in the Middle East, and then he will work as a man of peace in the world and the biggest influence in the world, and push the agenda of the new age movement until the world rebels against God.

The new age movement interprets the Bible and all religions according to the occult and evolution, and people are still evolving to be spiritual, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher and evolved to be an ascended master, and do not honor a personal God but acknowledge the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power the evolutionary process, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolving of people.

Alice Bailey the biggest prophet of the new age movement wrote a book called consciousness of the atom, and they believe the universe has a conscious so they follow that the evolutionary process and nature.

That is why they will be so dangerous because they believe they have to get rid of all people that oppose them for that is what nature wants for them to do for they are a disease on the earth like the body fights diseases in the body.

That is why the beast kingdom is the worse kingdom that has ever been on earth for there is no God to fear, no God to offend, no God to punish, and they will not show the love of God.

People say that religions cause the most fighting and if there was no religion it would be better but they are going to find out it is more crueler and worse in fighting when they cut out religions.

But they do not care for while they cry religions cause the most fighting they will fight for their beliefs and worse than the religions.

The 70th week has not started for if it did the New Age Christ would be working in the world pushing the agenda of the new age movement which he is not working in world.