Sabbath

[TheLearner]

"The Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches salvation by grace through faith, apart from works. This is very good. "
https://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism/the-clear-word-bible-and-salvation/

https://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism/does-the-bible-allow-christians-to-worship-on-sunday/

 

[pottersclay]

Lord Jesus was born in Israel under the Old Covenant. That is how He lived. The new Covenant has rendered the old obsolete. If you study God's purpose, you will find that the Law was God's second best, so to speak. Israel as a nation refused to come to God to be blessed. They preferred to stay aloof. So instead of a personal relationship with the living God, they chose slavery to words on stone. All the law did was prove that there is no desire in the heart of man to keep it. Paul's letter to the Galatians lays out exactly the believer's relationship to the law. You can't have it both ways. Either you live by law or by grace. The law will kill you. Grace is Life (Romans 5:10)

As I said before the law doesn't save but the law came from a never changing God. Only jesus can save us from the law for the law is unforgiving.
First I'd like to point out everyone that points out the phase jews includes all of Israel ...that's not so.
Jesus pointed out the wolves in his day the Pharisees or pharisetic jews which right now are under a lot of pressure from the Messianic jews in Israel. The oral law keepers and the written law keepers . The spiritual Kabbalah believers and so on . Much like christianity there are many different sects of jews so stop bunching them up as one.
The law had no escape plan incorporated. One offence broke them all.
Jesus said something interesting....be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect....are we? Are you?
He also said not everyone who believes but those who obey are his. So do you always obey.?..do we?
Grace was first mentioned in the story of noah...it led him and his family to escape the judgement to come. The Lord's grace is found throughout the old as well as the new.
The Lord new covenant was given to the jews first that his word shall be in their hearts
By grace we are saved.(like noah) no doubt but without blood there is no remissions of sin.
Without repentance there is no forgiveness.
Israel has found no peace because they have not entered in to the Lord's rest....have we?
But the minute you say rest and Lord what comes to your mind....sabbath? The Lord's rest.
We enter in through Christ ...and so will Israel soon.

 

[SophieT]

I am not a member of the SDA and don't know much about them, except they take the old testament as scripture from God enough to go against the norm even to worship God according to how God tells us He created the world in Genesis. Do they believe in Christ as their savior? If they do then they are your brother and sisters in the Lord and according to Christ who explained the spirit of the law you are committing murder. It is fine and good to disagree, and say how you do, but you carry it to the point of "you fool" God warns against.

Paul explains they can choose their day of worship, just as you have. No scripture told you to worship on Sunday, it is your interpretation to do so. There is scripture telling us to worship on the seventh day. Of the two, you are most out of line.

don't even start up Blik

you have created numerous threads in which you insist the Sabbath is the only day acceptable to God

don't try to play it another way now. Paul does NOT explain we can worship any day. leave it to you to twist what the Bible states

he was condemning those who tried to Judaize converts to Christianity...similar to what you do, while mentioning the gospel once in awhile, you prefer to talk about how you keep OT days and the Sabbath

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

you, Blik, illustrate the false humility Paul talks about, and you pepper your threads with how you observe special days and believe we should all worship on Saturday.

to state what you have now, is utter baloney. you judge judge judge everyone who disagrees with you

perhaps look at your own heart and find murder there. it certainly is not in my heart and probably not even in the hearts of those in this thread I disagree with you

you have some nerve

 

[SophieT]

Romans 14

Easy-to-Read Version



Don’t Criticize Others
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food,[a] but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.
5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.
7 We don’t live or die just for ourselves. 8 If we live, we are living for the Lord. And if we die, we are dying for the Lord. So living or dying, we belong to the Lord. 9 That is why Christ died and rose from death to live again—so that he could be Lord over those who have died and those who are living.
10 So why do you judge your brother or sister in Christ? Or why do you think that you are better than they are? We will all stand before God, and he will judge us all. 11 Yes, the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Everyone will bow before me;
everyone will say that I am God.’”
12 So each of us will have to explain to God about the things we do.
Don’t Cause Others to Sin
13 So we should stop judging each other. Let’s decide not to do anything that will cause a problem for a brother or sister or hurt their faith. 14 I know that there is no food that is wrong to eat. The Lord Jesus is the one who convinced me of that. But if someone believes that something is wrong, then it is wrong for that person.
15 If you hurt the faith of your brother or sister because of something you eat, you are not really following the way of love. Don’t destroy anyone’s faith by eating something they think is wrong. Christ died for them. 16 Don’t allow what is good for you to become something they say is evil. 17 In God’s kingdom, what we eat and drink is not important. Here is what is important: a right way of life, peace, and joy—all from the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever serves Christ by living this way is pleasing God, and they will be accepted by others.
19 So let’s try as hard as we can to do what will bring peace. Let’s do whatever will help each other grow stronger in faith. 20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that hurts the faith of your brother or sister.
22 You should keep your beliefs about these things a secret between yourself and God. It is a blessing to be able to do what you think is right without feeling guilty. 23 But anyone who eats something without being sure it is right is doing wrong. That is because they did not believe it was right. And if you do anything that you believe is not right, it is sin.

anyone preferring to remain a slave to the law, as Paul writes, while encouraging others to join them is causing others to sin

you are trying to put a different meaning to the scripture, just like Sabbath keepers do, while actually doing what you think you are telling others not to do

there is only one gospel and only one way to believe it

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I can understand why Paul became so angry at those who twisted the sacrifice of Christ and tried to add works and law to it

it is actually shameful to patronize those who try to add to God's perfect salvation as you are doing

"The Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches salvation by grace through faith, apart from works. This is very good. "
https://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism/the-clear-word-bible-and-salvation/

https://carm.org/seventh-day-adventism/does-the-bible-allow-christians-to-worship-on-sunday/

yes and then they add law keeping and special day observations

exactly what Paul warned believers about. some things never change it seems

 

[pottersclay]

The law does not apply to believers in Christ. Acquaint yourself with the teachings of Paul to better understand that. In fact, the Apostle Peter was soundly rebuked by Paul because he was sliding from freedom in Christ back into legalistic practices. He accepted what Paul had to say and changed his behavior

We, as followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, are not bound by the law. We have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, not animals, and are free of condemnation because of it. I do not practice replacement theology and I have a sound comprehension of both old and new testaments. the confusion occurs when people believe that in some manner, the law is still binding on them. It is not

A person may say that many Christians today avoid the OT, as you do in your post, but I would point out that many must avoid the NT to insist they are still bound to ANY part of the law. Paul refers to Hagar the slave woman and to Sarah the free woman, to explain the difference

We are free in Christ. The lie many Sabbath keepers like to promulgate, is that saying we are free in Christ means we think we can sin. This is totally false and has been addressed over and over in this forum alone.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Ephesians 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Galatians 5:13-14 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom to cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Paul was speaking of what the Pharisees had done to the children of Israel. They laid such a burden on the people to control the masses much like the catholic church has.
God ment his sabbaths and appointed time to be joyful and most of all fellowship with him after all all of them speak of Jesus....
I praise God for that freedom.
We no longer have to kill a lamb but we are commanded to share it with all walks of life.

Let me ask you a serious question....if there was a time when you were a orphan and I adopted you would you become part of my family? Or do I become part of yours? Just some food for thought😏😏

 

[SophieT]

The original Christians (followers of Christ) were more like messianic jews today. They believed in, followed, and taught the law and commandments just like the Messiah did... and continued this long after his death. This includes the Sabbath. If you read the entire commandment... Exodus 20 verses 8-11 it tells us we are not to work on this day. A little history research will show how these original followers of Christ were brutally forced into giving up the sabbath day as well many other of The Most High God's instructions on how to live (law). Many of God's laws may have been given to the Israelites, but also had to be kept by the stranger if they wanted to live amongst the chosen. The original Christians being forced to give up the sabbath, holy days, and other laws and adopt the pagan practices at the time, played a huge role in creating what we now know as modern day Christianity.

how much do you actually know about Messianic Jews?

So in your economy, Paul, who wrote a great portion of the New Testament and was personally called by Jesus to take the gospel to the Gentiles, was only kidding when he asked the Galatians who had bewitched them since they were turning back to the law?

that was only a joke? was Paul kidding around again when he said he wished the Judaizers would go the whole way. meaning cut off more than just the foreskin? haha such a sense of humor

if you place yourself under the law and worse teach others to do the same, Paul was talking to you

oh but I know many Sabbath keepers do not like what Paul wrote and they do not give him the same credence the rest of the Bible has. You think maybe God did not know how that would go?

the original Christians were not forced to give up the Sabbath. that is fiction. they turned from the shadow of the law into the light of the Living God and His Son, the Christ.

 

[SophieT]

Paul was speaking of what the Pharisees had done to the children of Israel. They laid such a burden on the people to control the masses much like the catholic church has.
God ment his sabbaths and appointed time to be joyful and most of all fellowship with him after all all of them speak of Jesus....
I praise God for that freedom.
We no longer have to kill a lamb but we are commanded to share it with all walks of life.

Let me ask you a serious question....if there was a time when you were a orphan and I adopted you would you become part of my family? Or do I become part of yours? Just some food for thought😏😏

no, actually that was Jesus shtick. Paul addressed the Judaizers. Paul was sent to the Gentiles...not his own people.

you have things rather confused as to who said what and wrote what.

God always meant for those who are His to turn from the slavery of the law to the light of His Son and be set free

Your question has zero bearing on the discussion. Jesus is to me as He is to all who accept Him. No one is less whether they are born a Jew and accept Him or Gentile and accept Him

If that were not so, then Gentiles would have been expected to keep the law as well. Just like some of you are saying here

Cast off the rags and put on the white robe that Jesus covers all who believe in Him with

 

[SophieT]

The original Christians being forced to give up the sabbath, holy days, and other laws and adopt the pagan practices at the time, played a huge role in creating what we now know as modern day Christianity.

a little more on your attempts to provide validity to SDA practices: understanding this is not a reflection on you personally, but rather on the practices of the SDA, to which it seems you belong

the SDA promotes 3 main lies to attempt to 'prove' their practices

1. early Christians worshipped on the Sabbath
truth: "...every Lord's day, hold your solemn assemblies, and rejoice: for he will be guilty of sin who fasts on the Lord's day, being the day of the resurrection..." (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 449)
the day of the resurrection was not the Sabbath.

2. they say that for 100 years after Christ there was no discussion about the Sabbath
truth: in 110 AD, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day" (IGNATIUS Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

3. SDA attempts to blame Constantine for the change in the day of worship saying it began around 325 AD
truth: history records that Christians had long since worshipped or held meetings, not on the Sabbath, but on the day of Jesus resurrection

 

[Blik]

don't even start up Blik

you have created numerous threads in which you insist the Sabbath is the only day acceptable to God

don't try to play it another way now. Paul does NOT explain we can worship any day. leave it to you to twist what the Bible states

he was condemning those who tried to Judaize converts to Christianity...similar to what you do, while mentioning the gospel once in awhile, you prefer to talk about how you keep OT days and the Sabbath

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

you, Blik, illustrate the false humility Paul talks about, and you pepper your threads with how you observe special days and believe we should all worship on Saturday.

to state what you have now, is utter baloney. you judge judge judge everyone who disagrees with you

perhaps look at your own heart and find murder there. it certainly is not in my heart and probably not even in the hearts of those in this thread I disagree with you

you have some nerve

I truly believed that God created Saturday as Sabbath and blessed that day. I have never had a right to condemn other people for not agreeing with me, and if I ever did it was unintentional. Through studies on this site, I now believe God gives us the freedom to choose the day to worship. I now believe that God lets us choose the day. It is God's world, not Sophie's or Blik's.

I feel it is my right to say what I believe, but no one has a right to judge people. They also have no right to accuse falsely. You are accusing falsely, you do not have that right.

 

[Blik]

did I mention a book? No I did not.

you are not informing me here. if you have something to say, just say it. don't direct people to information that I bet the kitchen sink you have not read yourself

Even the lowly rabbit in the Disney Movie "Bambi" knew that if you can't say anything good about somebody, don't say anything at all..

 

[TheLearner]

"The heretic was excluded from a portion in the world to come (Maimonides, "Yad," Teshubah, iii. 6-14); he was consigned to Gehenna, to eternal punishment (R. H. 17a; comp. Ex. R. xix. 5; see Apiḳoros, and compare D. Hoffmann, "Der Schulchan Aruch und die Rabbinen über das Verhältnis der Juden zu Andersgläubigen," 2d ed., Berlin, 1894); "
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7591-heresy-and-heretics

" Under Persian influence, however, the doctrine of resurrection underwent a change, and was made part of the Day of Judgment; hence in Dan. xii. 2 the resurrection is extended to both the wicked and the righteous: the latter "shall awake to everlasting life," the former "to shame and everlasting horror" (A. V. "contempt"). "
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology#anchor2

"
Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach dem Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

Judgment.
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

"https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7534-hell

 

[TheLearner]

reed to here

 

[MalikB]

The law does not apply to believers in Christ. Acquaint yourself with the teachings of Paul to better understand that. In fact, the Apostle Peter was soundly rebuked by Paul because he was sliding from freedom in Christ back into legalistic practices. He accepted what Paul had to say and changed his behavior

We, as followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, are not bound by the law. We have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, not animals, and are free of condemnation because of it. I do not practice replacement theology and I have a sound comprehension of both old and new testaments. the confusion occurs when people believe that in some manner, the law is still binding on them. It is not

A person may say that many Christians today avoid the OT, as you do in your post, but I would point out that many must avoid the NT to insist they are still bound to ANY part of the law. Paul refers to Hagar the slave woman and to Sarah the free woman, to explain the difference

We are free in Christ. The lie many Sabbath keepers like to promulgate, is that saying we are free in Christ means we think we can sin. This is totally false and has been addressed over and over in this forum alone.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Ephesians 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Galatians 5:13-14 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom to cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

The law is forever and those that teach otherwise risk the consequences of Matthew 5:19. We would not be teaching today that this law did not apply if the original followers of Christ were not murdered, enslaved, etc. and forced to adopt the ways of the ruling power at the time.

Most of the examples that are used in Christianity to teach that we are free from law can be found in Paul's writings. IF I came to the conclusion that Paul was actually teaching the law no longer applied, I would consider him a false prophet... But I don't believe that to be the case. What I believe happens with Paul's writings in Christianity is exactly what we were warned about in 2nd Peter 3:16... Because his writings are hard to understand, they get distorted... and we get lead to our own destruction. The very next verse says to be on guard and not to get carried away by the deception of lawless people.

Like I mentioned in my initial post, when we speak of law, we fail to acknowledge the separation between the law itself... and the penalties for not keeping law (sin). Duet 11:26-28 makes this difference clear.... Keeping the law is a "blessing"... Breaking the law is the "curse". We were freed from the "curse of the law"... meaning the penalties. The penalty for sin (breaking law) is death... which is what the Messiah paid. We were not freed from keeping the law... that is a blessing. I used this analogy in my original post... The Messiah did not take down the speed limit sign, he just paid one big ticket.

We are freed from penalties of the law under the first covenant (stoning, animal sacrifice, etc.), but we will still be judged under the renewed one. Duet 11:26-28 showed us that whether or not we kept these laws determined whether we were blessed or cursed.... The Messiah showed us in Matt 5:19 that law based blessings and curses are even carried on to heaven.


Praise Yah!

 

[MalikB]

to add

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

9 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Its sad people want to go back to the tutor.

I posted most of this response already as a reply to someone else, but it applies in both cases. I will also address Gal 3:24 at the end...

The law is forever and those that teach otherwise risk the consequences of Matthew 5:19. We would not be teaching today that this law did not apply if the original followers of Christ were not murdered, enslaved, etc. and forced to adopt the ways of the ruling power at the time.

Most of the examples that are used in Christianity to teach that we are free from law can be found in Paul's writings. IF I came to the conclusion that Paul was actually teaching the law no longer applied, I would consider him a false prophet... But I don't believe that to be the case. What I believe happens with Paul's writings in Christianity is exactly what we were warned about in 2nd Peter 3:16... Because his writings are hard to understand, they get distorted... and we get lead to our own destruction. The very next verse says to be on guard and not to get carried away by the deception of lawless people.

Like I mentioned in my initial post, when we speak of law, we fail to acknowledge the separation between the law itself... and the penalties for not keeping law (sin). Duet 11:26-28 makes this difference clear.... Keeping the law is a "blessing"... Breaking the law is the "curse". We were freed from the "curse of the law"... meaning the penalties. The penalty for sin (breaking law) is death... which is what the Messiah paid. We were not freed from keeping the law... that is a blessing. I used this analogy in my original post... The Messiah did not take down the speed limit sign, he just paid one big ticket.

We are freed from penalties of the law under the first covenant (stoning, animal sacrifice, etc.), but we will still be judged under the renewed one. Duet 11:26-28 showed us that whether or not we kept these laws determined whether we were blessed or cursed.... The Messiah showed us in Matt 5:19 that law based blessings and curses are even carried on to heaven.

I’m not sure what bible version you are currently using, but in the KJV (as well as a few others) call the law our “schoolmaster” in Galatians 3:24. A schoolmaster was a male servant who was responsible for guiding boys into manhood…. basically a role model. So these verses are saying that the law was our guide to The Messiah and now we no longer need that guide, because HE is now our role model. If we follow Him, we will be following the law. We were given a physical example of the written law…. “The word made flesh.”

 

[MalikB]

How does this law apply to christians today?

If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her.

Thanks,
Daniel

I don't claim to be an expert on all of the laws, but I have heard this before and know that there are believers that have gotten to the point where they have small communities around them that keep this and all other laws they've grown to understand. I stated in my initial post that there are some laws that were meant for certain people at certain places or times and others that were to be carried out by all people forever. I would have to study this one further to draw a conclusion.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[MalikB]

how much do you actually know about Messianic Jews?

So in your economy, Paul, who wrote a great portion of the New Testament and was personally called by Jesus to take the gospel to the Gentiles, was only kidding when he asked the Galatians who had bewitched them since they were turning back to the law?

that was only a joke? was Paul kidding around again when he said he wished the Judaizers would go the whole way. meaning cut off more than just the foreskin? haha such a sense of humor

if you place yourself under the law and worse teach others to do the same, Paul was talking to you

oh but I know many Sabbath keepers do not like what Paul wrote and they do not give him the same credence the rest of the Bible has. You think maybe God did not know how that would go?

the original Christians were not forced to give up the Sabbath. that is fiction. they turned from the shadow of the law into the light of the Living God and His Son, the Christ.

I saw this reply late, but I already covered the majority of this. Paul's writings are the most difficult to understand (2nd Peter 3:16) and have therefore become the most misrepresented writings in scripture. But if I did come to the conclusion that Paul was teaching that the law no longer applied, I would definitely side with the eyewitness accounts and quotes of the Messiah in the gospels, Peter,.... as well as the torah. You are simply incorrect about the original Christians and the Sabbath. This change was done under the pagan rulership of Constantine.

 

[peldom10]

I truly believed that God created Saturday as Sabbath and blessed that day. I have never had a right to condemn other people for not agreeing with me, and if I ever did it was unintentional. Through studies on this site, I now believe God gives us the freedom to choose the day to worship. I now believe that God lets us choose the day. It is God's world, not Sophie's or Blik's.

I feel it is my right to say what I believe, but no one has a right to judge people. They also have no right to accuse falsely. You are accusing falsely, you do not have that right.

Judge righteously...the Bible says.

What does that mean ...in light of your words?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I posted most of this response already as a reply to someone else, but it applies in both cases. I will also address Gal 3:24 at the end...

The law is forever and those that teach otherwise risk the consequences of Matthew 5:19. We would not be teaching today that this law did not apply if the original followers of Christ were not murdered, enslaved, etc. and forced to adopt the ways of the ruling power at the time.

Most of the examples that are used in Christianity to teach that we are free from law can be found in Paul's writings. IF I came to the conclusion that Paul was actually teaching the law no longer applied, I would consider him a false prophet... But I don't believe that to be the case. What I believe happens with Paul's writings in Christianity is exactly what we were warned about in 2nd Peter 3:16... Because his writings are hard to understand, they get distorted... and we get lead to our own destruction. The very next verse says to be on guard and not to get carried away by the deception of lawless people.

Like I mentioned in my initial post, when we speak of law, we fail to acknowledge the separation between the law itself... and the penalties for not keeping law (sin). Duet 11:26-28 makes this difference clear.... Keeping the law is a "blessing"... Breaking the law is the "curse". We were freed from the "curse of the law"... meaning the penalties. The penalty for sin (breaking law) is death... which is what the Messiah paid. We were not freed from keeping the law... that is a blessing. I used this analogy in my original post... The Messiah did not take down the speed limit sign, he just paid one big ticket.

We are freed from penalties of the law under the first covenant (stoning, animal sacrifice, etc.), but we will still be judged under the renewed one. Duet 11:26-28 showed us that whether or not we kept these laws determined whether we were blessed or cursed.... The Messiah showed us in Matt 5:19 that law based blessings and curses are even carried on to heaven.

I’m not sure what bible version you are currently using, but in the KJV (as well as a few others) call the law our “schoolmaster” in Galatians 3:24. A schoolmaster was a male servant who was responsible for guiding boys into manhood…. basically a role model. So these verses are saying that the law was our guide to The Messiah and now we no longer need that guide, because HE is now our role model. If we follow Him, we will be following the law. We were given a physical example of the written law…. “The word made flesh.”

a few comments

1. Paul told us the purpose of the law

a. To bring everyone to the understanding they have sinned
b. To bring everyone to the understanding that because we have sinned, we are cursed
c. To lead us to christ.

2. Paul said that once a person has come to Christ.

A. They are no longer under the “tutor”
b. They they have no more need of the law. It has been fulfilled in their life.

3. As long as there are unbelievers, Your right, the law is still in effect. They must fulfill the law to get to heaven under their own power. Unfortunately. As paul said, All have sinned and fall short of the Gods requirement or glory .. (ie, no one is good but God, as Jesus said,) hence everyone who is not a believer is cursed. As jesus said, whoever does not believe is condemned (cursed) already.

what the law is not

1. A means to salvation
2. A means to KEEP or MAINTAIN salvation after we are saved
3. A means to achieve sanctification (It can not tell us how to be righteous people. It only can show us partially how unrighteousness we are. Remember,Jesus only gave ten commands, we cant even keep them, let alone everything he requires. This is WHY he said when we see him we will Know.

For the believer, the law is set aside. And we come under a new law. The law of Love. As jesus said, Love God with everything in you. And love your neighbor as yourself. Sin, by definition IS breaking the law. But that is not the only way to sin, Sin in its purest form is failing the law of love. Failing to love God or your neighbor (which included your enemy) is a sin. And this will lead to us breaking the commands.

People who teach we are still under and must follow law are missing the point of the law. And failing to see Gods truth of what real sin and what real righteousness looks like. Jesus walked the way he did because he had such deep love. Not because he was trying to obey the law. You can appear to follow the ten commands by keeping some form of the ten commands, and never physically commiting adultry, fornication, stealing etc. and thinking you are a righteous person. While continuing to be a sinful person who is lacking in any righteous way (internally) like the pharisees were. Thats why religion is bad. Because it looks to self. And not to God and others.

Seek ye the things of God, Get in step with the spirit, and love everyone above yourself. And this is theway to sanctification. Becoming like Christ. And become a mature believer.

Its not found in the law

 

[Cygnus]

a few comments

1. Paul told us the purpose of the law

a. To bring everyone to the understanding they have sinned
b. To bring everyone to the understanding that because we have sinned, we are cursed
c. To lead us to christ.

2. Paul said that once a person has come to Christ.

A. They are no longer under the “tutor”
b. They they have no more need of the law. It has been fulfilled in their life.

3. As long as there are unbelievers, Your right, the law is still in effect. They must fulfill the law to get to heaven under their own power. Unfortunately. As paul said, All have sinned and fall short of the Gods requirement or glory .. (ie, no one is good but God, as Jesus said,) hence everyone who is not a believer is cursed. As jesus said, whoever does not believe is condemned (cursed) already.

what the law is not

1. A means to salvation
2. A means to KEEP or MAINTAIN salvation after we are saved
3. A means to achieve sanctification (It can not tell us how to be righteous people. It only can show us partially how unrighteousness we are. Remember,Jesus only gave ten commands, we cant even keep them, let alone everything he requires. This is WHY he said when we see him we will Know.

For the believer, the law is set aside. And we come under a new law. The law of Love. As jesus said, Love God with everything in you. And love your neighbor as yourself. Sin, by definition IS breaking the law. But that is not the only way to sin, Sin in its purest form is failing the law of love. Failing to love God or your neighbor (which included your enemy) is a sin. And this will lead to us breaking the commands.

People who teach we are still under and must follow law are missing the point of the law. And failing to see Gods truth of what real sin and what real righteousness looks like. Jesus walked the way he did because he had such deep love. Not because he was trying to obey the law. You can appear to follow the ten commands by keeping some form of the ten commands, and never physically commiting adultry, fornication, stealing etc. and thinking you are a righteous person. While continuing to be a sinful person who is lacking in any righteous way (internally) like the pharisees were. Thats why religion is bad. Because it looks to self. And not to God and others.

Seek ye the things of God, Get in step with the spirit, and love everyone above yourself. And this is theway to sanctification. Becoming like Christ. And become a mature believer.

Its not found in the law

I Have a Question, maybe more... Why does everyone quote Paul and not Jesus for this subject? I figure we would want the Masters words on this and not the Servants. Why do we interchange the words Commandment and Law? Are they the same and were they given at the same time?

 

[Moses_Young]

Doesn't Romans 14 apply to this topic, for those who believe keeping the Sabbath is not a salvation issue, but rather, something they do out of conscience? Paul didn't prohibit the Jewish believers from continuing their traditions and even participated himself as recorded in Acts, although he made clear that these are not a salvation issue (Galatians).

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.