Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[Kidron]

We must repent of our sins, be baptized and then live a righteous life...until the end....such is God's commandment.

You are teaching Catholic Church baloney.

Listen, you can imitate Jesus all you like.
Dress like Him, grow a beard, talk about "the meek shall inherit", and then get water baptized 122 times, and then die and go directly to hell, after you have tried to keep the commandments for 78 yrs.
Why?

Because Jesus said......."you must be born again", and you left that part out, because you know nothing about that new birth.
If you did, you would be talking about it, instead of trying to replace it with works, water, and commandments.

 

[Evmur]

I think you mistake "forbidding" with "preventing".

Since God did NOT prevent man or woman from eating of that tree, they were actually free to eat of it. Which they DID.

So, they had free will to eat of the forbidden tree.

The example of preventing free will was about the "tree of life". After they rebelled and ate from the forbidden tree, they were kicked out of the garden so that they COULDN'T eat of the tree of life.

Well they had the will but it was hardly free in view of the dire consequences that followed and whereas they had the ability to choose we do not for we are born in sin and are bound to it ... until Jesus set us free.

 

[Evmur]

Did you say "God created evil"?

Then if you did, you accused God, on a publc forum, of creating : Rape, Incest, lies, hatred, child molesting, christ rejection, murder, Hitler, bigoty.

See, all that is EVIL and so when you accuse God of "creating evil" or "causing evil", you SEE what you have actually accused Him of Doing.

Think about that before you do it again., and if you are in a CULT that teaches you to accuse God of "causing evil", then get out of it.

You need to calm yourself a little and think with a clear head. I also said on a public forum that God did not create man for evil or to have knowledge of evil. Rape, incest, murder, etc Hitler bigotry are all from man.

Are YOU able to discern what is evil and what is good?

What about the cross? was that good or evil? without it we could not be saved.

Predestiny and election which I would remind you are Pauline doctrines teaches "God makes all things work together for GOOD for those who love Him and called to His purposes." now what on earth is wrong about that? why don't you do a little jig and rejoice that God has chosen YOU to be included in His good will?

Would you have it that evil is something God has no control over?

 

[Evmur]

Actually it is a. He gave them the ability they chose to eat if that tree in sin or chose to obey and not eat
they freely chose to eat

You are leaving the consequences out of the equation "thou shalt surely die" dead men have no freewill.

If Adam could escape the consequences then indeed he would have had freewill. THAT'S just how the devil tricked him, he took the consequences out of the equation

"you will not surely die" He was kidding Adam that he had freewill in the matter. The doctrine of human freewill is that deception.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I think you mistake "forbidding" with "preventing".

Well they had the will but it was hardly free in view of the dire consequences that followed

There must be clarity in what we say. Both the man's and the woman's ability to choose was clearly FREE. Not "hardly free".

The dire consequences have no bearing on making choices. People "burn themselves" all the time because of bad choices. They are still free to make those kind of choices.

and whereas they had the ability to choose we do not for we are born in sin and are bound to it ... until Jesus set us free.

So you don't believe that any born (not created) person has the ability to choose?? Where does the Bible teach that?

Rather, Paul taught that belief comes from the heart, not from God. Rom 10:9

Paul also taught that man has a conscience with which to know right from wrong. Romans 2:14,15.

And, Paul taugh that because God has revealed Himself and His divine power through creation, man has no excuse for not recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him. Romans 1:19-21

Man surely has a free will. That's the only way man can be accountable and have no excuse for his own choices.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Predestiny and election which I would remind you are Pauline doctrines

Paul taught that believers are predestined to be like Christ. No one is "predestined" for salvation.

Election is NOT to salvation, but rather to service. Even Judas was chosen for service; he was the betrayer. This doesn't mean that God CAUSED him to betray Jesus. In fact, God KNEW he would given the opportunity. Acts 17:26,27 says (by Paul) that God has placed everyone WHEN (time) and WHERE (place) so they would seek Him. Judas certainly had no excuse for his choices. The Savior chose Him. John 6:70,71.

1 Cor 1:27,28 shows the purpose of God's election; all of the examples are for service and none are for salvation.

In fact, there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe.

teaches "God makes all things work together for GOOD for those who love Him and called to His purposes." now what on earth is wrong about that? why don't you do a little jig and rejoice that God has chosen YOU to be included in His good will?

There is nothing wrong with Rom 8:28. There's quite a bit wrong with your faulty conclusion as to what you think it means.

 

[Kidron]

You need to calm yourself a little and think with a clear head.

My head is fine.
You're just a liar.

Here let me prove it.

You said that you did not accuse God of creating evil..... You said.......>"i said no such thing".

So, here is your Quote...

""""Of course God created evil"""""""


Now, you have an issue with lying in public.
Work that out., if possible., as lying is evil.
Dont do it anymore.

 

[Grandpa]

That isn't the issue. The issue in election is service, whether an unsaved person like Judas, per John 6:70,71 or believers, per Eph 1:4 and 1 Cor 1:27,28.

The fruit of the Spirit isn't "grown" as you note. The fruit of the Spirit is what the Spirit does through the believer who is in fellowship and filled with the Spriit, as I have explained.

What was unclear about my explanation?

It is the issue. It is the gist of this issue.


You have unbelievers, spiritually dead, able to grow the Fruit of the Spirit spontaneously without God. And what is even more strange is you don't even know your argument is stating this...


"Fruit" is symbolic language. "Grow" is using this same symbolic imagery in regards to "Fruit". Shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

 

[Grandpa]

The bible is a progressive revelation.
It basically starts with Creation, and ends at the end of the Revelation.
A lot happens in between, and all of it is this...>God is dealing with man, and this changes and changes.
God never changes, yet His dealing with man, is shown as changing all through the bible.
= Progressive revelaiton.

Right now, you and me and all of us, are in the "time of the Gentiles".
Paul is our literal apostle, as Paul is the "apostle TO the Gentiles".
This is God's dealing not just with the JEW.........but mostly with the GENTILES.
When the Grt Trib starts, God is again back with the Jew and the time of the Gentiles is OVER.
Jesus is coming back, 2nd time, not to save, but to destroy and bring vengeance. 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9
He is literally coming back to bring vengeance on those who do not believe or obey the Gospel.
That's the next progressive reveal, and we are HERE.........before that, in the "time of the Gentiles".

During this Time of the Gentiles, you have some rules that apply, in this time of the Gentiles.
These rules DEFINE, the new covenant and the church doctrine.

When Jesus was here, he was in the OLD Covenant time, and when His Cross was raised the time of the Gentiles, and the NEW Covenant, literally began.

So, here is the first key you have to SEE, so that you dont get lost in the bible, as it has many working parts, and not all of them work correctly, when you try to JAM THEM INTO THE TIME OF THE GENTILES.

First Key........1.) Every verse that is written in the NT, that happened before the Cross was raised, has to be viewed in light of the Cross.

For example.......You have John' the Baptist's water baptism. This happened before the Cross was raised.
So, are you supposed to be baptized according to John's baptism that was for JEWS, (Jews like JESUS).....2000 yrs after the New Covenant is given?
Nope.
So, see that change?
And so, lots of changes occurred because the new Covenant replaced the Old covenant.

Now, your question.....""""""is everyone saved, just because they are born."
Not at all.............no.

And yet all who will become born again, ......God knew they would, before they were born.
He know i would be saved before i was born, but He didnt make me. He didnt force me.
He OFFERED Jesus to me, and said......"will you believe"..........and i DID, and God said...."your faith is counted as My Righteousness"., and i was born again.
And, He knew i would believe, before i was born......but that is not causing it to happen, that is FOREKNOWLEDGE.....that is : "God knows everything before it happens".......including who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell.

BUT HERE IS THE KEY...... =.Knowing a thing, is not the same as causing it to happen.
Foreknowledge, is KNOWING.........not causing.
God's foreknowledge shows Him who will be saved, but that is God knowing they will before they are born.... that is not God causing it to happen.

Foreknowledge is KNOWING before it happens........... this is not the same as causing it to happen..

(foreknowledge)..= KNOWING it will, is not the same as causing it to happen.

I didn't ask about foreknowledge.

Everyone knows what foreknowledge is.

I asked you a specific question that you didn't answer.

 

[Kidron]

I asked you a specific question that you didn't answer.

I did answer you.
I always answer.
You just didnt read it.

Let me post it for you........

Here is my quote, that answers your question..

-
""""" Now, your question.....""""""is everyone saved, just because they are born."
Not at all.............no.

And yet all who will become born again, ......God knew they would, before they were born.
He know i would be saved before i was born, but He didnt make me. He didnt force me.
He OFFERED Jesus to me, and said......"will you believe"..........and i DID, and God said...."your faith is counted as My Righteousness"., and i was born again.
And, He knew i would believe, before i was born......but that is not causing it to happen, that is FOREKNOWLEDGE.....that is : "God knows everything before it happens".......including who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell.

BUT HERE IS THE KEY...... =.Knowing a thing, is not the same as causing it to happen.
Foreknowledge, is KNOWING.........not causing.
God's foreknowledge shows Him who will be saved, but that is God knowing they will before they are born.... that is not God causing it to happen.

Foreknowledge is KNOWING before it happens........... this is not the same as causing it to happen..

(foreknowledge)..= KNOWING it will, is not the same as causing it to happen."""""

 

[Kidron]

You have unbelievers, spiritually dead, able to grow the Fruit of the Spirit spontaneously without God. .

You are describing a Christ rejector who can do a good deed.
That is not fruit of the spirit......that is a self effort./ good intentions.

"fruit of the Spirit", is a product of the Spirit of God, and an unbeliever can't produce this spiritual fruit because they are not born again Spiritually.
To produce Spiritual Fruit, you have to have Christ in you, who is the "first Fruit"......
Unbelievers do not have Christ in them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is the issue. It is the gist of this issue.

I was correcting your mistaken understanding about election. It is NOT about salvation. If it is, please quote a verse that says so.

You have unbelievers, spiritually dead, able to grow the Fruit of the Spirit spontaneously without God.

Now you are conflating 2 different issues.

Of course unbelievers cannot produce (not 'grow') the fruit of the Spirit. They don't have the Holy Spirit in them. Only believers, who do have the Spirit indwelling them can produce (not 'grow') the fruit of the Spirit.

And what is even more strange is you don't even know your argument is stating this...

Excuse me. Just read above, which shows your confusion and mistaken understanding.

"Fruit" is symbolic language. "Grow" is using this same symbolic imagery in regards to "Fruit". Shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

Of course your word (not the Bible's) is not hard to grasp. But it is you who hasn't grasped the issue that the Bible doesn't ever use your word about "growing the fruit".

Instead, the Bible speaks of "bearing fruit" and "producing fruit".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are leaving the consequences out of the equation "thou shalt surely die" dead men have no freewill.

If Adam could escape the consequences then indeed he would have had freewill. THAT'S just how the devil tricked him, he took the consequences out of the equation

"you will not surely die" He was kidding Adam that he had freewill in the matter. The doctrine of human freewill is that deception.

You missing the point.

While yes, IF HE ATE he would die

He had to chose to eat or not eat.

That's free will

God would not have to say he would die. if he was never going to eat. or never had the ability to eat. He gave him the warning so that he had all the info he needed so he could chose to sin or obey God.

He chose to sin.

 

[Evmur]

You missing the point.

While yes, IF HE ATE he would die

He had to chose to eat or not eat.

That's free will

God would not have to say he would die. if he was never going to eat. or never had the ability to eat. He gave him the warning so that he had all the info he needed so he could chose to sin or obey God.

He chose to sin.

Yes Adam could choose, choice is not freewill. If he had freewill he could say "ok God I WILL disobey You but I will not die"

Again the options are God's 1. obey and live [that's Adam's best option] that is God's will 2. disobey and die, it's still God's will.

 

[Evmur]

My head is fine.
You're just a liar.

Here let me prove it.

You said that you did not accuse God of creating evil..... You said.......>"i said no such thing".

So, here is your Quote...

""""Of course God created evil"""""""


Now, you have an issue with lying in public.
Work that out., if possible., as lying is evil.
Dont do it anymore.

No you are angry, you get yourself into a fit of moral rage ... this does not make for clear thinking.

You are not being honest either, you say I lied but only quote half of what I said ... that is not being honest.

I said "of course God created evil ... but He did not create man for evil or to have knowledge of evil"

You don't address the question with a calm mind

You get into a fit of rage at the idea that God created evil, why do you not become enraged at the idea that God does not stop rape, incest, murder, Hitler and all those other things? He certainly could.

The fact is evil is not sin, man's partaking the knowledge of evil and acting upon it is sin. Evil is part of creation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes Adam could choose, choice is not freewill. If he had freewill he could say "ok God I WILL disobey You but I will not die"

Again the options are God's 1. obey and live [that's Adam's best option] that is God's will 2. disobey and die, it's still God's will.

This makes no sense brother

Free will is the ability to chose. All free will choices have consequences.

Adan freely chose to sin., And because of it He
If I chose to get drunk and drive and I get in a wreck and kill someone. I freely chose to drive and suffer my consequences.

 

[Evmur]

FreeGrace2 said:
I think you mistake "forbidding" with "preventing".

There must be clarity in what we say. Both the man's and the woman's ability to choose was clearly FREE. Not "hardly free".

The dire consequences have no bearing on making choices. People "burn themselves" all the time because of bad choices. They are still free to make those kind of choices.


So you don't believe that any born (not created) person has the ability to choose?? Where does the Bible teach that?

Rather, Paul taught that belief comes from the heart, not from God. Rom 10:9

Paul also taught that man has a conscience with which to know right from wrong. Romans 2:14,15.

And, Paul taugh that because God has revealed Himself and His divine power through creation, man has no excuse for not recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him. Romans 1:19-21

Man surely has a free will. That's the only way man can be accountable and have no excuse for his own choices.

What man among us all has chosen to live a sinless life? what man has chosen successfully to never die?

Our Lord never sinned, nor could any take His life from Him, but He was born without sin and He was able to lay down His life and take it up again.

But you and I are bound to sin and bound to die ... all the freewill in the world cannot stop it.

And Paul doesn't say we were free he says we were slaves.

 

[Grandpa]

I did answer you.

Grandpa said:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Your verse was given before Christ was CRUCIFIED..............And so.... here is the DRAWING.........that is in your verse, that Christ was talking about...

Jesus said....>"If i be lifted UP, i will DRAW ALL MEN TO ME".


Ok. You did answer. But did you address this? What was your point in posting this in regards to John 6:44???

If all men are not saved then all men are not drawn. The All that the Lord is talking about must be a specific All. As in "ALL that the Father has sent me will be the All men that are drawn to Christ".

 

[Grandpa]

You are describing a Christ rejector who can do a good deed.
That is not fruit of the spirit......that is a self effort./ good intentions.

"fruit of the Spirit", is a product of the Spirit of God, and an unbeliever can't produce this spiritual fruit because they are not born again Spiritually.
To produce Spiritual Fruit, you have to have Christ in you, who is the "first Fruit"......
Unbelievers do not have Christ in them.

Right. I think you are starting to get it.

 

[Evmur]

Paul taught that believers are predestined to be like Christ. No one is "predestined" for salvation.

Election is NOT to salvation, but rather to service. Even Judas was chosen for service; he was the betrayer. This doesn't mean that God CAUSED him to betray Jesus. In fact, God KNEW he would given the opportunity. Acts 17:26,27 says (by Paul) that God has placed everyone WHEN (time) and WHERE (place) so they would seek Him. Judas certainly had no excuse for his choices. The Savior chose Him. John 6:70,71.

1 Cor 1:27,28 shows the purpose of God's election; all of the examples are for service and none are for salvation.

In fact, there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe.


There is nothing wrong with Rom 8:28. There's quite a bit wrong with your faulty conclusion as to what you think it means.

I agree predestiny and election are to belong to the church and not unto salvation per se. I believe in the wider mercy.

The scripture runs "whom He foreknew He also predestined ...." not whom He did not know He predestined ... how can a person be predestined or chosen whom God did not know?

Although Christ chose Judas He knew that he would be the betrayer.