Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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The faith to believe is a gift from God which He imparts with the preaching of the gospel.
And there are no verses that teach this.

No good thing dwells in man.
Correct.

It's God who begins the good work in us.
Correct.

But the gifts of God are salvation, eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the variety of spiritual gifts given to each believer.

Believing is from the heart, not from God.

Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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But the gifts of God are salvation, eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the variety of spiritual gifts given to each believer.

Believing is from the heart, not from God.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." — Ephesians 2:8-9

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9


Another question may be - how can the unregenerate ''believe from the heart''?


We were once all dead in our sins..

No one seeks after righteousness etc.

Just something for us all to consider? Have a blessed day.
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." — Ephesians 2:8-9

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9


Another question may be - how can the unregenerate ''believe from the heart''?


We were once all dead in our sins.

No one seeks after righteousness etc.

Just something for us all to consider? Have a blessed day.
The post ties to contend that if repentance and faith precede the new birth, it is, therefore, salvation by works. The questions are over and over again, Unregenerate = unsaved, and the unsaved will be saved by grace through/ agency of faith. If we are looking at “how”, the Bible has the answer:


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not come before we believe, we have got to believe before we are sealed/ saved. Believe what? To believe the gospel. When? That is after we hear the word of God/ truth. We need to believe to have or get a life. The unsaved or unregenerate need to hear the gospel truth and it is still the choice of him if one “believes” or “not believe”. To the ones who believe are born again and to those who do not believe remain the same.

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. -- 1 Tim. 1:16

Our text demand faith in Him to live (born again/ regeneration). Everyone can hear and have the capacity to either believe or not believe. We are dead in sins does mean everyone is living according to the course of this world, everyone is disobeying God, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the MIND Eph 2:3-4. Everyone is doing according to his will and not God's will but of course, their mind is completely able to hear and react, except that they were separated from God.
 

Evmur

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Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
Of course He does, no man can come to Christ unless the Father draw him. We are God's children even though we are consigned under sin like everybody else WHY? so that everyone else can be damned? no, no. but that God might have mercy upon everyone. I believe the meek shall inherit the earth.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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And there are no verses that teach this.


Correct.


Correct.

But the gifts of God are salvation, eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the variety of spiritual gifts given to each believer.

Believing is from the heart, not from God.

Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
if saving faith dwells in us then some good thing does dwell in us. You contradict yourself.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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And there are no verses that teach this.


Correct.


Correct.

But the gifts of God are salvation, eternal life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the variety of spiritual gifts given to each believer.

Believing is from the heart, not from God.

Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
"By grace ye are saved through faith and that not your own lest FreeGrace should boast in God's presence"
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Do you believe that God chooses who will believe?
Of course He does
Correct answer for a true Calvinist. But you have absolutely no verses that teach what you claim. So why do you continue to believe it?

no man can come to Christ unless the Father draw him.
Right. John 6:44. But why do Calvinists seemingly never quote the next verse, which actually SAYS who will come to Christ?

6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

First, we see that everyone has been taught by God. How do you suppose that occurs? Well, the Bible tells us. Rom 1:19-21
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The bold words are what God has taught everyone: His very existence, His eternal power and divine nature. So that no one has any excuse.

Second, God created mankind with a conscience, with which to recognize right and wrong. Rom 2:14,15

So, the red words are what God did before even creating mankind.
The blue words are what happens when PAYING ATTENTION to what God teaches.
The purple words are the result of paying attention; they come to Jesus.

We are God's children even though we are consigned under sin like everybody else WHY? so that everyone else can be damned? no, no. but that God might have mercy upon everyone.
Why do Calvinists admit that God "might have mercy upon everyone" when He WITHHOLDS what is necessary for salvation to so many?

I believe the meek shall inherit the earth.
Yes, you should believe that because the Bible says so.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Another question may be - how can the unregenerate ''believe from the heart''?
No problem. God created everyone with a conscience with which to know right and wrong. iow, to recognize that they themselves do wrong, which is a problem.

Coupled with the fact that Rom 1:19-21 shows that God has revealed His very existence, divine power and nature to everyone, so that man has no excuse, means that from the conscience, which is what Paul is actually referring to when he wrote about believing from the heart, is where man believes from.

We were once all dead in our sins..
So what? Spiritually dead doesn't mean physically dead, or unable to function.

No one seeks after righteousness etc.
I urge you to dig into Rom 3 and figure out where that quote by Paul from the OT came from. He wasn't referring to every single human being in the human race. The quote is real specific.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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if saving faith dwells in us then some good thing does dwell in us. You contradict yourself.
Huh? Where did I say that "saving faith dwells in us"?? That is silly.

Saving faith is the moment in time when a person who has heard the gospel realizes they are sinful and unable to save themself and that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins on the cross and gives the gift of eternal life to those who trust in Him for salvation.

Kind of a mouthful, but is the gospel.

btw, all of that comes together in a moment of time. That is when the person is saved. When they trust in Christ.

Jesus pointed out some who will "believe for a while", but when testing or temptation come along, they "fall away". Jesus addressed the issue of a person who ceases to believe after a while.

Does the Bible state that only those who continue to believe will continue to be saved? No, it does not.

Am I advocating for apostasy? Absolutely not. But, the point is that from the moment one believes savingly, they possess eternal life, as John 5:24 clearly notes. And Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

So, saving faith is the moment in time when a person realizes they are sinful, in need of saving from hell/separation from God and trust in Christ to save them. Only from then on, does saving faith "dwell in us".

And as Jesus noted, like the second soil, for some, saving faith dwells in them for a while.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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The post ties to contend that if repentance and faith precede the new birth, it is, therefore, salvation by works. The questions are over and over again, Unregenerate = unsaved, and the unsaved will be saved by grace through/ agency of faith. If we are looking at “how”, the Bible has the answer:


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not come before we believe, we have got to believe before we are sealed/ saved. Believe what? To believe the gospel. When? That is after we hear the word of God/ truth. We need to believe to have or get a life. The unsaved or unregenerate need to hear the gospel truth and it is still the choice of him if one “believes” or “not believe”. To the ones who believe are born again and to those who do not believe remain the same.

. . . to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him TO LIFE everlasting. -- 1 Tim. 1:16

Our text demand faith in Him to live (born again/ regeneration). Everyone can hear and have the capacity to either believe or not believe. We are dead in sins does mean everyone is living according to the course of this world, everyone is disobeying God, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the MIND Eph 2:3-4. Everyone is doing according to his will and not God's will but of course, their mind is completely able to hear and react, except that they were separated from God.

Hi fredofheaven,

I enjoyed reading your post. I think either I wasn't very clear or you misread my post, I know what I am like, I probably was not very clear.. I wan't contending that if faith precedes regeneration then it is by works. The question was - how can the unregenerate ''believe from the heart''? This was in reference to Romans 10:9 - Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I too believe that one must believe and have faith to be saved.. that's not the issue either! The issue is how does one come to have faith. so all the verses you have posted I agree with as well.

And I agree with your last statement "Everyone is doing according to his will and not God's will."

But the man in bondage to sin needs to be set free, simply because, he does his own will, he is in bondage to his nature (sin nature -Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3). " As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. - Eph 2:1-3.

The only way any man can come to faith is by the outward call of the gospel and the inward working of the Holy Spirit.

When God calls a man the question becomes - is this call effectual or not? Scripture seems to suggest that God's call is effectual:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified - Romans 8:28-30.


Does God's call on a person fail? I would say no, because it's not just the gospel call that saves it's the outward call of the word with the inward working of the Holy Spirit. I think Scripture is clear that those whom God call's he actually does justify, that is His call through His word and spirit are effectual.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified - Rom 8:30.

Anyhow there are 2 main views among protestants/evangelicals and that is - Monergistc and Synergistic. I know many good and faithful people who hold either /or and they are brothers and sisters in Christ we mustn't forget that in these debates.

My main concern with threads like this one is that some become so ardent in their defence of the synergistic view (prevenient grace) that they fall into the trap and error of Pelagianism.

- The Monergistic view is that God renews the heart of the spiritual dead man so that he can have faith.. therefore since God done it it is effectual.

- The synergistic view holds that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes and heart of a sinner enabling him to come to Christ..but with this new freedom of the will they can still refuse.

Both the above are over simplifications. My advice is just be careful not to fall into the error Pelagianism. No man has the capacity on his from his own will or inner spark to come to Faith (all evangelicals/protestants will agree with this). It's going to be either Irresistable grace or Prevenient grace.

Anyhow Fred, Christians have been debating this for centuries. It's a good debate and quite an important one. I may not agree with everything you have said, but I genuinely enjoy reading it(y)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Hi fredofheaven,

I enjoyed reading your post. I think either I wasn't very clear or you misread my post, I know what I am like, I probably was not very clear.. I wan't contending that if faith precedes regeneration then it is by works. The question was - how can the unregenerate ''believe from the heart''? This was in reference to Romans 10:9 - Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I too believe that one must believe and have faith to be saved.. that's not the issue either! The issue is how does one come to have faith. so all the verses you have posted I agree with as well.

And I agree with your last statement "Everyone is doing according to his will and not God's will."

But the man in bondage to sin needs to be set free, simply because, he does his own will, he is in bondage to his nature (sin nature -Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3). " As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. - Eph 2:1-3.

The only way any man can come to faith is by the outward call of the gospel and the inward working of the Holy Spirit.
Alright, I may have misunderstood your post and I have to agree with the part thing you said that the “The only way any man can come to faith is by the outward call of the gospel”. I do believe that this is well supported in the Bible but not the other thing you said about “ ..and the inward working of the Holy Spirit.” Which will put the cart before the horse thing. In this view, regeneration comes first before faith as I am saying. The Holy Spirit working inside in the unsaved, unbelieving is impossible as per scripture since we have not yet the Holy Spirit within us before salvation or regeneration. The Holy Spirit works within us after one gets saved and this is my proposition and as per context scripture in Ephesians 1:13-14.

On the other hand, Romans 8:28-30 speaks well of us the after salvation experience rather than before salvation since this refers to those who love God. No one loves him and no one seeks after him after all. So the passage cannot justify the calling to salvation or the calling to the faith. This calling has its purpose, and the purpose concerns those who have already been saved, those who already placed their faith in Christ as we are told "to conform to the image of the Son of God" or Christ. This would fall in the area of Christlikeness that is already IN Him and he is shining in you.

No way to Pelagianism, the scripture is clear we don’t “come to faith” but rather “faith comes” as Romans 10 says. Fair enough but I would that we may see/behold in the glass in clarity. God bless.