7th Letter to the Church of Laodicea

[Lafftur]

Hello everyone,

There are 7 Letters to 7 Churches in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation. Let’s read them one by one and share any understanding that the Holy Spirit gives us.

I’ll create a thread for each letter to each church so we can discuss them separately.

Try to stay away from commentaries…just read the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to open them to you and give you understanding…then share with all of us what you heard the Spirit saying….

Here is the last letter, the 7th Letter to the angel/messenger of the church of Laodicea:

Revelation 3:14-22

14 “And to the angel/messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write,

Greeting:

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Evaluation:

15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Correction:

I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,

Consequence:

I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

Instruction:

18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent.

Commends them:

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Exhorts them to hear the Spirit and overcome:

21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Looking forward to reading all your posts!

 

[bluto]

Revelation 3:14 says, "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this." My question is for you directly Laffur, (and without using any commentaries) why does it say God created Jesus Christ? The part that says, the Beginning of the creation of God,

bluto

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 3:14 says, "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this." My question is for you directly Laffur, (and without using any commentaries) why does it say God created Jesus Christ? The part that says, the Beginning of the creation of God,

bluto

beginning
G:N-F
ἀρχή, -ῆς, ἡ
[in LXX for קֶדֶם, רֹאשׁ, רֹאשׁ, etc. ;]
__1. beginning, origin;
__(a) absol., of the beginning of all things: of God as the Eternal, the First Cause, Rev.21:6 (cf. 18); similarly, of Christ, Rev.22:13; of Christ as the uncreated principle, the active cause of creation, Rev.3:14; in his relation to the Church, Col.1:18; ἐν

 

[Absolutely]

That was from strongs dictionary


It is basically "original creator"

 

[Omegatime]

beginning
G:N-F
ἀρχή, -ῆς, ἡ
[in LXX for קֶדֶם, רֹאשׁ, רֹאשׁ, etc. ;]
__1. beginning, origin;
__(a) absol., of the beginning of all things: of God as the Eternal, the First Cause, Rev.21:6 (cf. 18); similarly, of Christ, Rev.22:13; of Christ as the uncreated principle, the active cause of creation, Rev.3:14; in his relation to the Church, Col.1:18; ἐν

I agree it is speaking of the Creator

 

[bluto]

Hello everyone,

There are 7 Letters to 7 Churches in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation. Let’s read them one by one and share any understanding that the Holy Spirit gives us.

I’ll create a thread for each letter to each church so we can discuss them separately.

Try to stay away from commentaries…just read the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to open them to you and give you understanding…then share with all of us what you heard the Spirit saying….

Here is the last letter, the 7th Letter to the angel/messenger of the church of Laodicea:

Revelation 3:14-22

14 “And to the angel/messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write,

Greeting:

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Evaluation:

15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Correction:

I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,

Consequence:

I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

Instruction:

18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent.

Commends them:

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Exhorts them to hear the Spirit and overcome:

21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Looking forward to reading all your posts!

There was a reason I brought up Revelation 3:14 and the part that says, "
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

You said, "Try and stay away from Commentaries." I'm pretty sure you said the same thing in some of your past post. When was the last time you used a Commentary or a Lexicon? I specifically wanted you to answer the question of "the Beginning of the creation of God" and how are we to understand what it means.

The Jehovah Witnesses bring up this verse to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being. They also like to bring up Proverbs 8:22 as well. If one did not consult commentaries or a lexicon you would not know how to prove to them that Jesus is not created, but the Creator. This is also why there is the gift of teaching, to glean information my Scholars that know languages etc.

I'm not "criticizing" you but rather informing you to have an open mind to scholarship instead of dismissing it. And btw, (and this is something I learned) the word in Greek for "beginning" is "arche." We get are English word, "architect" from that word. What does an architect do? He draws up the plans and is the "origin" of something to be made or created in this case.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lafftur]

Revelation 3:14-22

14 “And to the angel/messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write,

Greeting:

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Jesus Christ reveals Himself to us as the Amen which means "so be it." As The Word of God speaks, "so be it done."

He also reveals Himself as the Faithful and True Witness which means He is the Word of God and everything He speaks it faithful and true. It will happen exactly as He says it. Everything will be exactly as He says it.

Lastly, He reveals Himself as the Beginning of the creation of God because He is God wrapped in flesh to become our Savior and then rise from the dead as the Firstborn Son of God of many Sons of God, His brethren.

He is fully God and is creating Sons of God just like Him. He is the Beginning of the creation of (the Sons) of God because He is the Firstborn to rise from the dead. Only God can rise from the dead and He shall raise us up from the dead and at that point, we shall be just like Him - Sons of God. Hallelujah and Amen!

 

[Lafftur]

Revelation 3:14 says, "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this."

My question is for you directly Laffur, (and without using any commentaries) why does it say God created Jesus Christ? The part that says, the Beginning of the creation of God,

bluto

There was a reason I brought up Revelation 3:14 and the part that says, "
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

You said, "Try and stay away from Commentaries." I'm pretty sure you said the same thing in some of your past post. When was the last time you used a Commentary or a Lexicon? I specifically wanted you to answer the question of "the Beginning of the creation of God" and how are we to understand what it means.

The Jehovah Witnesses bring up this verse to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being. They also like to bring up Proverbs 8:22 as well. If one did not consult commentaries or a lexicon you would not know how to prove to them that Jesus is not created, but the Creator. This is also why there is the gift of teaching, to glean information my Scholars that know languages etc.

I'm not "criticizing" you but rather informing you to have an open mind to scholarship instead of dismissing it. And btw, (and this is something I learned) the word in Greek for "beginning" is "arche." We get are English word, "architect" from that word. What does an architect do? He draws up the plans and is the "origin" of something to be made or created in this case.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Hello @bluto,

Why use a commentary when you have the Holy Spirit to teach you?!!!! I don't want to know what man knows, I want to know what the Holy Spirit knows!!!

Let's walk through the scriptures of the 7 letters to the 7 churches and let the Holy Spirit teach us!

What I'm posting in all 7 of these threads is NOT from commentaries, I reference Bible dictionaries and the Bible concordances to cross reference scriptures but, NO commentaries.

Below is in answer to your question: " I specifically wanted you (Lafftur) to answer the question of "the Beginning of the creation of God" and how are we to understand what it means."

Jesus Christ reveals Himself as the Beginning of the creation of God because He is God wrapped in flesh to become our Savior and then rise from the dead as the Firstborn Son of God of many Sons of God, His brethren.

He is fully God and is creating Sons of God just like Him. He is the Beginning of the creation of (the Sons) of God because He is the Firstborn to rise from the dead. Only God can rise from the dead and He shall raise us up from the dead and at that point, we shall be just like Him - Sons of God. Hallelujah and Amen!

 

[Nehemiah6]

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)
Why is Christ called "the Amen"? That is a Hebrew word which can mean (a) verily, (b) truly, (c) so be it, (d) surely, (e) of a truth, or (f) most assuredly . It is transliterated into both Greek and English.

So to understand how this applies to Christ we need to go to 2 Cor 1:18-20: But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Because God is true, all His promises in Christ are "Yea" and "Amen". Which tells us that because God's promises are GUARANTEED in Christ, He is called "the Amen" unto the glory of God.

Because Christ the Word is the Creator, He is therefore the "beginning" of creation. All creation began by Him and through Him.

 

[bluto]

Hello @bluto,

Why use a commentary when you have the Holy Spirit to teach you?!!!! I don't want to know what man knows, I want to know what the Holy Spirit knows!!!

Let's walk through the scriptures of the 7 letters to the 7 churches and let the Holy Spirit teach us!

What I'm posting in all 7 of these threads is NOT from commentaries, I reference Bible dictionaries and the Bible concordances to cross reference scriptures but, NO commentaries.

Below is in answer to your question: " I specifically wanted you (Lafftur) to answer the question of "the Beginning of the creation of God" and how are we to understand what it means."

Jesus Christ reveals Himself as the Beginning of the creation of God because He is God wrapped in flesh to become our Savior and then rise from the dead as the Firstborn Son of God of many Sons of God, His brethren.

He is fully God and is creating Sons of God just like Him. He is the Beginning of the creation of (the Sons) of God because He is the Firstborn to rise from the dead. Only God can rise from the dead and He shall raise us up from the dead and at that point, we shall be just like Him - Sons of God. Hallelujah and Amen!

Your very last paragraph has nothing to do with the meaning of Revelation 3:14. Again, Revelation 3:14 is specifically teaching that Jesus Christ is the "CREATOR/ORIGIN" of everything, period. What the Apostle John wrote here is backed up by what he wrote at John 1:1. Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 start out the exact same way, "in beginning." The definite article "the" has been supplied so it reads in English smoothly.

The "in the beginning" at Genesis 1:1 is describing "WHAT HAPPENED" in the beginning. The "in the beginning" at John 1:1 the emphasis is on "WHO EXISTED" "in the beginning. This means that John's beginning "antecedes" the Genesis beginning. So getting back to your paragraph that says, "He is the Beginning of the creation of (the Sons) of God because He is the Firstborn to rise from the dead is patently wrong.

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come." You become a new creature by having faith in believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Regarding the "firstborn" from the dead in this particular context it means that Jesus rose from the dead in a permanent way, i.e. conquering death. I am not talking about Jesus being the firstborn over creation or His "preeminence" as the one and only Son of God.

And btw, this statement of yours: "Why use a commentary when you have the Holy Spirit to teach you?!!!! I don't want to know what man knows, I want to know what the Holy Spirit knows!!!" is completely ignorant. Why are you using, "Bible dictionaries and the Bible concordances to cross reference scriptures but, NO commentaries." if the Holy Spirit is teaching you? Who do you think wrote these Bible dictionaries and concordances? In short, your being not only inconsistent but "hypocritical."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lafftur]

Oh dear, it appears a religious Pharisee spirit is very upset with me…

@bluto - This is exactly why I don’t want to know what you or any other man knows. I want the Holy Spirit to teach me.

Bible dictionaries and concordances are NOT interpretations of scripture. They are tools that give a definition of one word and that give other scriptures to cross reference but, do NOT give interpretation.

 

[Lafftur]

Looking at Jesus' evaluation of the Church of Laodicea...

Revelation 3:14-22

14 “And to the angel/messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write,

Evaluation:

15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Jesus Christ knows us soooo well. He knows all our works....everything we think, say and do and the motives of our heart. Whatever conclusion He comes to about our works is very accurate.

Here, He is checking our "temperature" and tells us we are not cold or hot.....which means we are lukewarm...

Uh-oh! Sounds like His evaluation of our works is not good and will require some correction and instructions!!!

 

[Absolutely]

Oh dear, it appears a religious Pharisee spirit is very upset with me…

@bluto - This is exactly why I don’t want to know what you or any other man knows. I want the Holy Spirit to teach me.

Bible dictionaries and concordances are NOT interpretations of scripture. They are tools that give a definition of one word and that give other scriptures to cross reference but, do NOT give interpretation.

Ok
That sounds good. "Only the Holy Spirit"
In reality each member of the body DEPENDS on the other for revelation or specifically " the entire picture".
We all have a small part.
Those "pieces" joined make up the picture.

Books and commentaries are wisdom, not rubbish.
We need each others revelation.

" can the hand say to the foot, I have no need for you"?

 

[Absolutely]

Bottom line.
I like fish
Fish has many bones.
I learned to spit out the bones.
Sermons have many bones.
I ingest the meat of it....spit out the bones.

 

[Lafftur]

Bottom line.
I like fish
Fish has many bones.
I learned to spit out the bones.
Sermons have many bones.
I ingest the meat of it....spit out the bones.

When the Holy Spirit opens the scriptures and feeds me the meat…there are NO bones to spit out.

 

[JaumeJ]

I believe there is an easy distinction here. The flesh is not the Holy Spirit, ergo, the Holy Spiirit dwelling within the believer will "spit out the bones." For no man teahing or preaching is without error, not a one, other than our Lord and Savior.

 

[bluto]

Oh dear, it appears a religious Pharisee spirit is very upset with me…

@bluto - This is exactly why I don’t want to know what you or any other man knows. I want the Holy Spirit to teach me.

Bible dictionaries and concordances are NOT interpretations of scripture. They are tools that give a definition of one word and that give other scriptures to cross reference but, do NOT give interpretation.

First of all it is not necessary for you to make "snide" remarks about me having the spirit of a Pharisee. It shows how 'Biblically" immature you are with a prideful attitude. And no, I'm not upset with you. I have been at this for 59 years now and I know a little bit of what I'm talking about.

Secondly, I never said anything about interpreting Revelation 3:14 based on using Commentaries. If you would have taken the time to actually read the post in this thread you should have noticed that myself and two others used Lexicons to understand how the word "beginning" is used at Revelation 3:14.

As I stated the Greek word is "arche" and we get our English word "architect" from that word. Obviously, (at least to some) the word means the planner, first cause or the originator of something to be created or made. It does not mean what you stated here: "He is the Beginning of the creation of (the Sons) of God because He is the Firstborn to rise from the dead. "

There was a reason why the Apostle John said that Jesus Christ is the "arche/creator and how his statement has meaning to the rest of the verses in the chapter.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lafftur]

Oh dear, @bluto

I'm glad you're not upset with me. It sure did sound like you were....

I've found that when a person starts telling me about all THEIR credentials of Ph.Ds, 30 years of teaching Bible seminary, or 59 years of studying.......and because of all their years of studying, they KNOW what the Bible means.....just tells me they do NOT know but, they think they know.

I don't care how long you've been studying the Bible, I want to know what the Holy Spirit is saying to you about the scriptures.

We ONLY KNOW and will UNDERSTAND the scriptures by the HOLY SPIRIT.

Lexicons sound like a Greek/Hebrew Bible Dictionary to me which would be very useful. I do like Bible dictionaries and concordances.

 

[Lafftur]

Moving on to the "Correction, Consequence and Instruction" from Jesus Christ to the last letter, the 7th Letter to the Church of Laodicea....

Revelation 3:14-22

14 “And to the angel/messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write,

Correction:

I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,

Jesus wants us to make a decision...we either love Him or we love ourselves and the world. If we think we can love Jesus and the world and our own way, we deceive ourselves and have compromised and are trying to serve two masters....

Our love for God being cold and lukewarm interferes with our decisions to follow Christ and choose the Father's Will.

Consequence:

I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

Jesus will not accept our lukewarm or cold love for Him and the Father's Will. He will detest our "showy love for God" to impress others and promote ourselves. Saying, "I am rich, wealthy and need nothing" is very deceptive.

Man does not even live except by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God...how ridiculous to say we are rich, wealthy and in need of nothing...we ALWAYS need God.

If our love remains cold or lukewarm, we will end up wretched miserable, poor, blind and naked...our flesh loves the world but, our soul is truly only satisfied by the Word and Spirit of God.

Instruction:

18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore, be zealous and repent.

The knowledge, wisdom and understanding of God's Word is tested in us with fire so that only the pure Truth remains after testing. All our religious mindsets and man-made doctrines are consumed and only God's Truth remains as Pure Gold....we become rich in the Kingdom of God by possessing the pure Truth of His Word without any distortion from man.

Our filthy rags of righteousness (or fig leaves) need to be handed over to Jesus in exchange for His white robe of righteousness so that our sin of nakedness like Adam and Eve in the Garden will not be exposed. We don't want to do our good works, we want to do His good works.

Our spiritual eyes need to operate, if they don't then we are blind. The just shall walk by faith, not by sight. Faith is the anointing of God's eye salve on our eyes so that we can see clearly to walk and not stumble over sin. God gives us the Holy Spirit and anoints us with the Holy Spirit to know and understand all things that God wants to reveal to us.

Jesus Christ's rebuke and chastisement of us is evidence of His great love for us. The response from us He wants is for us to be zealous and repent.

Lord Jesus Christ, we repent and ask you to help us buy from You gold refined in the fire, white garments, and that You would anoint our eyes with Your eye salve...help us to be zealous for You, amen.