accepting Jesus

[Pilgrimshope]

Not at all.
I was just showing you that you dont know how to rightly divide the word.. you only know how to cut and paste your one true rant.
I know how to rightly divide the NT.
Im not new to New Testament exegesis.

You could do this.... Pilgrimshope
Look up......"Pauline Theology"., and go study it.
Once you learn what that means and what that teaches, then you'll recognize what i Teach, instantly.
As that is all a real NT teacher, is going to teach the believers and non.

Ahhhh lol ok believing very clear straight forward scripture like this from an apostle of Jesus Christ to the church

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“rightly dividing the word “is an excuse you pulled out of a totally unrelated comment made to Timothy lol but there is a bit of wisdom in going to follow in the next verse

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

lol it’s funny you used that verse haha and just before he’s telling Timothy to study and show himself approved as a work man o doesn’t need to be ashamed d yet your division of the word lol is to reject the word you don’t like hearing that could have simply taught you to find repentance hearing his call
Into glory

 

[randyk]

Im ok if you insult then run.
Children are like that....and what else can you do ?
Its who you are.......

I'm not running. It's not wise to continue to speak with a troublemaker. I'll be happy to discuss *anything* with you. I just won't do it when you ignore plain-spoken statements, and you turn around and claim I say the opposite of that.

Again, I told you our spiritual transformation, our partnership with Christ, our choice to accept Christ and to obey his word, has *nothing to do with earning our own Salvation.* It has nothing to do with *helping Christ make an atonement for our sin.* There is a distinction between Christ's work of atonement and our work in doing righteousness. You as much admitted this by saying that beyond our Salvation we must become Disciples.

And yet you continue to claim I'm saying we earn our own way without Christ and obtain Salvation apart from Christ. You're either thick or a trouble-maker. I was hoping it was that you're just thick, but I suspect you're a trouble-maker.

If you wish to clarify, I'm all ears. But so far you've done nothing but claim I say things I don't say, and condemn me as if I'm saying them. Unless you fix things there's no sense in discussing anything with you.

 

[wattie]

I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church....that is not biblical

if a person accepts Christ as their Savior right now and dies an hour later, they are still saved

what do you think salvation is exactly?

I was properly baptized as a young teen-ager when I actually understood what it was all about




not sure where you are getting this Randy, but it never helps to paint with such a broad brush

Yeah I was christened in the methodist church, confirmed in the Methodist church, but not saved in any of what was going on there.

I was saved in teens by calling out to Christ for salvation!

That's it. Accepted Christ as Saviour then.


If it wasn't then, at university I learned more about key doctrine (again not in the methodist church) and learned assurance and security if salvation.

Anyway, put being..like you say.. its accepting Christ as Saviour that gets eternal salvation

 

[randyk]

I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church....that is not biblical

if a person accepts Christ as their Savior right now and dies an hour later, they are still saved

what do you think salvation is exactly?

I was properly baptized as a young teen-ager when I actually understood what it was all about

"Salvation" is a bigger word than most people realize. It encompasses our right to "get to heaven," but it also encompasses a successful life lived for the Lord right here on the earth, here and now. Salvation is deliverance from a carnal lifestyle, from a life that displeases the Lord. It was making a carnal choice that led Adam to the path to death in the first place, because living apart from the Lord fails to get into His Kingdom.

So to me, Salvation is getting born again, which is choosing to abandon completely the carnal life of doing your own thing for living a life completely in the Spirit of Christ. We choose to always go Christ's way, instead of what we would do without him. Whatever we do, we do it with him and for him. He isn't a task-master, and so we need not fear being bullied about. But he is Lord, and can circumvent our will any time he wants. He just wants us to ensure that whatever we do, it is in his Spirit.

This is Salvation--learning to live a life in the Spirit, to yield up our own desires for things that pleases him. We need not be legalistic about it, but we need to make sure that love is the basis of all we do.

I was baptized as an infant, as well. I've been going to church since I was born. But I think that baptism is more a dedication by the parents than an actual baptism. True baptism was designed for the penitent to make a public display of his conversion. Babies don't do that. But parents are still obligated, by God, to raise up their children in the Lord.

My Lutheran experience was dull. I think it was like Luther himself, who was a Christian but didn't feel it was really there until he started getting revelations of God's grace. Wesley also didn't feel he was quite there until he got a revelation of holy living.

That's what happened to me too. I prayed every day, and knew the Lord with my mind. But I never knew he could fill my soul, and guide me in his love all the time. And so, true Salvation encompasses this deeper life, as I call it. We can be nominal Christians, and make it to heaven. But to enjoy the fulness of Salvation, and to win God's pleasure for all eternity, we need to learn how to hear and obey his word every hour of every day. It is walking with the Lord, as Enoch did.

Samuel didn't fully know God's voice until he began to obey it. That's what will get you all the way into experiencing the Lord, by learning to recognize his word and then obeying it. God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.

not sure where you are getting this Randy, but it never helps to paint with such a broad brush

I'm not being judgmental--I'm just concerned. I've been around the block quite a few times, and know what I'm talking about. This isn't to condemn anybody, but to help them like I was helped.

 

[presidente]

Something that alarms me is that many Evangelicals thing that:

- Accepting Jesus is repeating a prayer.
- If you don't repeat a prayer after someone you aren't saved.

Sometimes the individual is asked to go through the 'sinner's prayer' ritual, whether or not the Gospel is presented. The idea seems to be that if someone repeats a prayer and believes it, He is saved, whether or not they know Who God is, Who Jesus is, believe that Jesus is Lord, believe that He died on the cross or rose from the dead.

It is really strange and really disconnected from the New Testament. There are no examples of anyone having an audience or individual repeat a prayer like this to be saved in the New Testament. It seems like over time, these prayers-- in many cases--have been gutten of gospel content, but the shell of tradition remains.

The thing is, if you ask a lot of the preachers who preach crossless, resurrectionless messages and have people repeat prayers that vaguely mention Jesus and tell the audience they are saved if they believe it.... if you ask them if the think someone has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for their sins, or that He rose against from the dead to be saved, many of them say 'yes.'

When I was a child, I heard a lot of these prayers at the ends of church sermons and in crusades. They were usually offered following a sermon that explained the cross and the resurrection. I heard many prayers based closely on Romans 10:9-10. The prayer was a tool to help the audience confess faith in Christ. But in the past few decades, it is typical for the cross and the resurrection to be missing from both the prayer and the message that preceded it.

It's like they robotically follow the tradition, the way they have seen things done. Repeating a prayer is treated as important, not preaching the Biblical Gospel.

I've taken to contacting-- emailing usually-- pastors who give these strange altar calls.

Sometimes, extrabiblical ideas like "It's a relationship and not a religion" get treated as if they were the essential Gospel message, as if accepting the re-definition of 'religion' as a bad thing, that started gaining popularity around 1990, is what saves.

I believe we need to go back to the Biblical Gospel, but also Biblical praxis. When we read in Acts, those who heard the gospel were ready to receive it were baptized. We need to tell people-- so that they understand and are persuaded-- that Jesus is Lord and Christ, the Son of God, that He died on the cross for our sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures. If they do not know Who God is, then we may need to start with that like Paul did with the Lyaconians and on Mars Hill.

They need to understand and believe the Gospel, not just go through some rote process that involves repeating a prayer.

 

[Kidron]

Have you noticed you never refer to anything in scripture ? /QUOTE]

Well lets see..
I referred to the Cross. I wrote about 20 verses, and i showed you why what you believe about 1st John 1:9, is confused.

So, its ok if you move on, as you helped some people here see what to avoid.
That would be, your theology.

 

[Kidron]

"But to enjoy the fulness of Salvation, and to win God's pleasure for all eternity, we need to learn how to hear and obey his word every hour of every day. .

Actually , and again, you are trying to over emphasize Discipleship.
Discipleship, is the "present your body a living sacrifice".......

Here is the issue with what you are teaching.... You are teaching "winning God's pleasure", , is by trying to be good.(discipleship).
You defined this as trying to do righteousness, in your Thread.

So, here is what you are teaching....>"to please God, you are to try the best you can to be as good as you can be".

And in fact, that does not please God......All that does is try not to sin........which leads to the sinning.

Now, here is how you please God....."But without faith it is impossible to please God""""

Notice ..."impossible to PLEASE GOD">........if your FAITH is not RIGHT.
See that?
And why is that? Its because with God all things are Spirit, Truth, Light, Righteousness, and FAITH.

God is much more interested in His Sons and Daughters of Christ becoming FAITH PERFECT, vs, holy lifestyle burdened.
Why is that?
Because if your faith is not right..

1. You can't please God with you life....

2. If your faith is wrong, you can't live the life of Holiness

See, its having correct FAITH, that is the KEY to understanding how to "work our your salvation", and exist IN the Kingdom of God, BY Faith.

 

[randyk]

Something that alarms me is that many Evangelicals thing that:

- Accepting Jesus is repeating a prayer.
- If you don't repeat a prayer after someone you aren't saved.

Sometimes the individual is asked to go through the 'sinner's prayer' ritual, whether or not the Gospel is presented. The idea seems to be that if someone repeats a prayer and believes it, He is saved, whether or not they know Who God is, Who Jesus is, believe that Jesus is Lord, believe that He died on the cross or rose from the dead.

It is really strange and really disconnected from the New Testament. There are no examples of anyone having an audience or individual repeat a prayer like this to be saved in the New Testament. It seems like over time, these prayers-- in many cases--have been gutten of gospel content, but the shell of tradition remains.

The thing is, if you ask a lot of the preachers who preach crossless, resurrectionless messages and have people repeat prayers that vaguely mention Jesus and tell the audience they are saved if they believe it.... if you ask them if the think someone has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for their sins, or that He rose against from the dead to be saved, many of them say 'yes.'

When I was a child, I heard a lot of these prayers at the ends of church sermons and in crusades. They were usually offered following a sermon that explained the cross and the resurrection. I heard many prayers based closely on Romans 10:9-10. The prayer was a tool to help the audience confess faith in Christ. But in the past few decades, it is typical for the cross and the resurrection to be missing from both the prayer and the message that preceded it.

It's like they robotically follow the tradition, the way they have seen things done. Repeating a prayer is treated as important, not preaching the Biblical Gospel.

I've taken to contacting-- emailing usually-- pastors who give these strange altar calls.

Sometimes, extrabiblical ideas like "It's a relationship and not a religion" get treated as if they were the essential Gospel message, as if accepting the re-definition of 'religion' as a bad thing, that started gaining popularity around 1990, is what saves.

I believe we need to go back to the Biblical Gospel, but also Biblical praxis. When we read in Acts, those who heard the gospel were ready to receive it were baptized. We need to tell people-- so that they understand and are persuaded-- that Jesus is Lord and Christ, the Son of God, that He died on the cross for our sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures. If they do not know Who God is, then we may need to start with that like Paul did with the Lyaconians and on Mars Hill.

They need to understand and believe the Gospel, not just go through some rote process that involves repeating a prayer.

All good points. I really don't want to put too much on someone who is sharing the Gospel, but what good is a watered down Gospel in which people aren't sure of what the commitment entails? I want to see less top-heavy preaching where one pastor does all the teaching and more opportunities for converts, including new converts, to speak and share with the church their conversion experience.

Average Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith, and opportunities need to be made for them to get practiced in it. And in the process, true and clear teaching can come out of this, even if it affords the opportunity for imperfections.

Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith intelligently, which will ensure that they have really received the Gospel. We can't just leave it to pastors and evangelists to share the Gospel. As you say, they don't always do a good job. And they need feedback too!

If only the leaders in a church share the Gospel, all of their flaws will be communicated too. The Gospel will not be completely successful until the rank and file learn to speak and to live the Gospel, as well!

 

[SophieT]

"Salvation" is a bigger word than most people realize. It encompasses our right to "get to heaven," but it also encompasses a successful life lived for the Lord right here on the earth, here and now. Salvation is deliverance from a carnal lifestyle, from a life that displeases the Lord. It was making a carnal choice that led Adam to the path to death in the first place, because living apart from the Lord fails to get into His Kingdom.

So to me, Salvation is getting born again, which is choosing to abandon completely the carnal life of doing your own thing for living a life completely in the Spirit of Christ. We choose to always go Christ's way, instead of what we would do without him. Whatever we do, we do it with him and for him. He isn't a task-master, and so we need not fear being bullied about. But he is Lord, and can circumvent our will any time he wants. He just wants us to ensure that whatever we do, it is in his Spirit.

This is Salvation--learning to live a life in the Spirit, to yield up our own desires for things that pleases him. We need not be legalistic about it, but we need to make sure that love is the basis of all we do.

I was baptized as an infant, as well. I've been going to church since I was born. But I think that baptism is more a dedication by the parents than an actual baptism. True baptism was designed for the penitent to make a public display of his conversion. Babies don't do that. But parents are still obligated, by God, to raise up their children in the Lord.

My Lutheran experience was dull. I think it was like Luther himself, who was a Christian but didn't feel it was really there until he started getting revelations of God's grace. Wesley also didn't feel he was quite there until he got a revelation of holy living.

That's what happened to me too. I prayed every day, and knew the Lord with my mind. But I never knew he could fill my soul, and guide me in his love all the time. And so, true Salvation encompasses this deeper life, as I call it. We can be nominal Christians, and make it to heaven. But to enjoy the fulness of Salvation, and to win God's pleasure for all eternity, we need to learn how to hear and obey his word every hour of every day. It is walking with the Lord, as Enoch did.

Samuel didn't fully know God's voice until he began to obey it. That's what will get you all the way into experiencing the Lord, by learning to recognize his word and then obeying it. God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him.



I'm not being judgmental--I'm just concerned. I've been around the block quite a few times, and know what I'm talking about. This isn't to condemn anybody, but to help them like I was helped.

Randy ~ the word 'salvation' does encompass more than accepting Jesus to be sure, but the main understanding is to be SAVED FROM, in this case, death, spiritual and physical...not that our current bodies are preserved, but in the life to come

I would say do not confuse sanctification with salvation. sanctification is a process; salvation is that very moment that you are (saved)

Even so, we cannot live our life for Christ without the Holy Spirit. We cannot sanctify ourselves....yes, we can make right choices to help in that direction, but this is more an inner work of the Spirit of God within us.

It is walking with the Lord, as Enoch did.

well, not quite. we now have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and we cannot expect to be translated as was Enoch

we are to renew our minds by the word of God, the Bible, which means simply that we AGREE with what God says

the above, is a very simplified explanation

 

[randyk]

Actually , and again, you are trying to over emphasize Discipleship.
Discipleship, is the "present your body a living sacrifice".......

This sounds like a contrdiction! I emphasize discipleship "too much," and then you emphasize a complete sacrifice? How can a complete sacrifice or intense discipleship be "over-emphasized?" By definition it is already at the highest degree of commitment!

Here is the issue with what you are teaching.... You are teaching "winning God's pleasure", , is by trying to be good.(discipleship).
You defined this as trying to do righteousness, in your Thread.

You seem to be looking for problems where there are none? You are reading into proper statements evil motives that I don't have. Perhaps it is *your motives* that are malicious and slanderous? That is what you seem to do all the time? Why not learn to put your accusatory tendencies to rest, and die to them? We all need to do this. I have no problem if you ask what I mean if it doesn't sound right to you. But to accuse somebody falsely is a sin.

So, here is what you are teaching....>"to please God, you are to try the best you can to be as good as you can be".

And in fact, that does not please God......All that does is try not to sin........which leads to the sinning.

Now, here is how you please God....."But without faith it is impossible to please God""""

Notice ..."impossible to PLEASE GOD">........if your FAITH is not RIGHT.
See that?
And why is that? Its because with God all things are Spirit, Truth, Light, Righteousness, and FAITH.

God is much more interested in His Sons and Daughters of Christ becoming FAITH PERFECT, vs, holy lifestyle burdened.
Why is that?
Because if your faith is not right..

You place "faith perfect" and "holy lifestyle" at odds with each other when they are not intrinsically opposed to one another. Having proper faith and living holy are part and parcel of the same thing. To imply that my faith is ingenuine is slanderous and accusatory, malicious and critical-minded. Perhaps you need to slow down and make sure someone is spouting heresy before you try to drag him through the mud?

1. You can't please God with you life....

2. If your faith is wrong, you can't live the life of Holiness

See, its having correct FAITH, that is the KEY to understanding how to "work our your salvation", and exist IN the Kingdom of God, BY Faith.

Claiming I don't have "correct faith" is an assertion without proof. Nothing you've said is true. Your spirit seems poisoned. Haven't you learned to die to your inner compulsions to criticize yet?

 

[SophieT]

All good points. I really don't want to put too much on someone who is sharing the Gospel, but what good is a watered down Gospel in which people aren't sure of what the commitment entails? I want to see less top-heavy preaching where one pastor does all the teaching and more opportunities for converts, including new converts, to speak and share with the church their conversion experience.

Average Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith, and opportunities need to be made for them to get practiced in it. And in the process, true and clear teaching can come out of this, even if it affords the opportunity for imperfections.

Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith intelligently, which will ensure that they have really received the Gospel. We can't just leave it to pastors and evangelists to share the Gospel. As you say, they don't always do a good job. And they need feedback too!

If only the leaders in a church share the Gospel, all of their flaws will be communicated too. The Gospel will not be completely successful until the rank and file learn to speak and to live the Gospel, as well!

not all pastors are teachers. one of the spiritual gifts is teaching. that would require Bible study and that is not usually what a person will get on a Sunday morning in church. teaching is different from giving an altar call

Christians need to learn how to speak about their faith intelligently, which will ensure that they have really received the Gospel. We can't just leave it to pastors and evangelists to share the Gospel. As you say, they don't always do a good job. And they need feedback too!

actually Christians need to learn what their faith is ... period...in many cases. they need to understand what their identity in Christ is, that self effort cannot maintain their life, that works are not sanctification, that we are actually each responsible for our own walk but at the same time, should be free from thoughts such as 'I am special' 'I cannot be deceived' 'I hear from God directly and do not need anyone to teach me' and so on.

these are all errors that are commonly found among Christians and no one can skip over the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives...which can be painstaking...and think they have suddenly grasped knowledge when sanctification is a lifetime

If only the leaders in a church share the Gospel, all of their flaws will be communicated too. The Gospel will not be completely successful until the rank and file learn to speak and to live the Gospel, as well!

what do you mean by the above? I'm not sure you understand the process

 

[randyk]

Randy ~ the word 'salvation' does encompass more than accepting Jesus to be sure, but the main understanding is to be SAVED FROM, in this case, death, spiritual and physical...not that our current bodies are preserved, but in the life to come

I would say do not confuse sanctification with salvation. sanctification is a process; salvation is that very moment that you are (saved)

I'm not confusing salvation with sanctification--you are! This is a language issue. I spoke perfectly clear about what I meant, that *getting to heaven* is one thing, and *living for God* is another thing. Both are wrapped up in what the Bible calls "Salvation."

I do recognize that in context most people are referring, by "Salvation," to "getting to heaven,* and I've not ignored that in this discussion. So I'm just explaining *for you* in this context that the Bible speaks of Salvation in a larger sense, which explains why there is so much confusion about *getting to heaven* and *living holy lives.*

*Living holy lives* does not get us to heaven, but it is certainly an essential part of getting to heaven! You're not going to get to heaven unless you live a holy life. And you won't live a holy life unless you commit completely to Christ, so that you can get to heaven to start with!

Rev 22.14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Phil 2.12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

1 Pet 2.2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Even so, we cannot live our life for Christ without the Holy Spirit. We cannot sanctify ourselves....yes, we can make right choices to help in that direction, but this is more an inner work of the Spirit of God within us.

I have not said otherwise. I've been very, very clear about this. Our salvation is a partnership with Christ. The atoning work is all his. The virtue is all his. The choice is ours. We choose to accept Christ. And we choose to obey him.

Those who obey Christ without inviting him into their lives are only obeying him part of the time. True Salvation is accepting him for the totality of our lives, so that we *always* choose to obey him. God doesn't want part-time children--He wants full-time children!

well, not quite. we now have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and we cannot expect to be translated as was Enoch

What silliness! You can't even learn from Enoch without criticizing me? What spirit are you of--a critical spirit?

we are to renew our minds by the word of God, the Bible, which means simply that we AGREE with what God says
the above, is a very simplified explanation

Simple and critical, for sure!

 

[SophieT]

I'm not confusing salvation with sanctification--you are! This is a language issue. I spoke perfectly clear about what I meant, that *getting to heaven* is one thing, and *living for God* is another thing. Both are wrapped up in what the Bible calls "Salvation."

yeah ok Randy. I guess at this point I understand what Kidron is saying

have a nice thread. I sure don't need any correction from you.

BTW, going 'you are!...that's immaturity. if you don't agree, simply say you don't agree. and then state why...but you cannot really say why without distorting scripture so you go 'you are' doesn't help and you will stay stuck in your current understanding...which is not really correct

like I said, have a nice thread....I don't get into discussion with people who are not actually discussing

 

[SophieT]

What silliness! You can't even learn from Enoch without criticizing me? What spirit are you of--a critical spirit?

you don't know who you are talking to

you are not in a place to rebuke me or anyone else here when you do not even understand basic doctrine

you are of an unteachable spirit...you are not humble as you think you are as the above clearly shows....it goes well with your constant criticism of those in leadership at church

I'm sure you would do a much better job...in your own mind

over 'n out...and my ignore list just got an addition

times are serious enough that serious people do not have time to make nice with people who waste their time

 

[SophieT]

Our salvation is a partnership with Christ.

one more thing

Salvation is of Christ alone. we can do nothing for our salvation

and if you do not understand that, then find someone to explain it to you since you won't hear from anyone here

 

[randyk]

not all pastors are teachers. one of the spiritual gifts is teaching. that would require Bible study and that is not usually what a person will get on a Sunday morning in church. teaching is different from giving an altar call

Yes, that's really the point I'm trying to make. Most churches focus their worship on one man--the pastor. Everybody else are sort of his acolytes. He will have someone read the Scriptures for him, or get him a glass of water. Worship leaders will entertain while he prepares to deliver his prized message--a one-man show.

I know this sounds utterly critical, and I know we're suppose to afford to leaders "double honor." I'm just trying to emphasize a point by going a bit overboard. I wouldn't be going to church if I thought the pastor was so lop-sided. Quite often they are gifted by God to help the church all at once, and others can minister in other places. I'd just like to see more leadership and more diversity, and more opportunity for the rank and file to commit themselves in an intelligent way--not like little zombies carrying out orders. Please take this in the right spirit! Some of my best friends are pastors. My brother was a pastor.

actually Christians need to learn what their faith is ... period...in many cases. they need to understand what their identity in Christ is, that self effort cannot maintain their life, that works are not sanctification, that we are actually each responsible for our own walk but at the same time, should be free from thoughts such as 'I am special' 'I cannot be deceived' 'I hear from God directly and do not need anyone to teach me' and so on.

All good. Perhaps you are contributing some of this info yourself?

these are all errors that are commonly found among Christians and no one can skip over the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives...which can be painstaking...and think they have suddenly grasped knowledge when sanctification is a lifetime
what do you mean by the above? I'm not sure you understand the process

I read a book by Watchman Nee called "The Good Confession." In this book Nee preached that all Christians must learn to speak their faith--otherwise they will become mute. Their ability to communicate in a Christian way will atrophy.

This happened to me in my early Lutheran experience. We were never taught that our speech is particularly different than the world--only clean. We were never taught to evangelize--people will likely not be interested. We should invite people only if we think they would genuinely be interested.

So if the rank and file in church don't learn to give their testimony, how will they know "Christian speech" from just "nice speech" in the world? And if we give up all Christian speaking in church to the pastor, we may get the benefit of his gifts, but we will also have no correction of his imperfections. All of his flaws could become our flaws, as well. We need diversity of leadership to prevent imbalances and errors. And we need the rank and file to learn the difference between Christian speech and just "clean speech." Otherwise, the world will not get evangelized!

 

[randyk]

yeah ok Randy. I guess at this point I understand what Kidron is saying

have a nice thread. I sure don't need any correction from you.

BTW, going 'you are!...that's immaturity. if you don't agree, simply say you don't agree. and then state why...but you cannot really say why without distorting scripture so you go 'you are' doesn't help and you will stay stuck in your current understanding...which is not really correct

like I said, have a nice thread....I don't get into discussion with people who are not actually discussing

suit yourself. I've quoted Scriptures and explained what I meant. If you want to continue to argue things I'm not saying, or split hairs over things that really aren't there, then I'm happy to see you go.

 

[Kidron]

All good points. I really don't want to put too much on someone who is sharing the Gospel, but what good is a watered down Gospel in which people aren't sure of what the commitment entails? !

Teaching that God requires a "commitment of you, to save you" = is a false gospel.
You should keep that heresy in your church and off of a public christian forum.

Do not turn the Grace of God into.."what i must commit to, before God will save me".

And do not twist a verse that says...>"count the cost"""', that does not refer to the Grace of God that is "the GIFT of Salvation".

 

[Kidron]

This sounds like a contrdiction! I emphasize discipleship "too much," and then you emphasize a complete sacrifice? How can a complete sacrifice or intense discipleship be "over-emphasized?"
Claiming I don't have "correct faith" is an assertion without proof.

If you can't teach correct faith, then you dont understand it.
Thats you.

See, you have this idea that Jesus's blood and your behavior is a "partnership" ...... that when combined, = Born again.

Here is your false gospel,..........>"The Cross + my works, = "im saved".

That's heresy, as your LEGALISM continues to deny the finished work of Jesus as THE Blood Atonement, which is all God provides to redeem.
Jesus said "I AM THE WAY".......and your way is....."MY DEEDS ALSO".

 

[mindfulzen]

I was raised with the Lutheran truth that we can be saved, as Christians, through grace, and not have to perform in any way to qualify for this salvation. There is no law we have to meet, and no endurance record, not litmus test, to qualify us for getting through the pearly gates.

And I do think Luther was a prince of this concept of grace, just as Paul was. We can never satisfy the requirements of the Law of Moses to get into heaven. We are all flawed people.

But many raised in the Protestant churches today have missed what being born again means. I believe in his doctrine of grace Luther taught the need to be reborn. I believe he himself experienced a profound personal transformation, the same time that he learned about grace.

Today, many just think "accepting Jesus as Messiah" fulfills the requirement of accepting grace. But it doesn't. True grace comes when we accept Jesus' righteousness into our lives.
We can't earn that righteousness, but we can certainly abandon our old ways for a new way of life in Jesus' righteousness. This is the transformation required to get into heaven.

Accept grace by accepting Jesus' righteousness, and learn to put it into action. We need not be perfect, but we need to know what Jesus' love is, and to practice it, as evidence that we have truly received it.

I was raised as a little atheist and never ever believed, never ever heard a thing about the bible at my parents house. So I found it on my own after around 40 years, without searching for it, as a socalled militant atheist. And as I understand it,

1. you start by believing, then you live it. That means stop sinning and living the truth. Then you lose anger, fear and doubts, once those emotions are cleansed. Seeker.

2. You are ready with a pure heart, to be marked by the holy spirit. Which I believe happened to me around february or march. Or thereabouts, perhaps april. Spirit.

3. And after that, I must pray for forgiveness, and ask to come along to heaven. So, I agree, that terms are blurred together. I think I have been given the spirit, but not granted the grace or salvation yet, because I have not asked for it. Grace/salvation.

Does this make sense for you? And there are many requirements I must meet, like reading the books first. Not sinning anymore. I must endure more "pain", and feel no anger or grief for it. And I must be perfect spiritually, knowledgable about scripture, and a totally pure heart, with only love. Otherwise I cannot go to step three. It is what we interpret it to I guess, and how literal we take it. .