Sabbath
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Still think you are ducking my point.
Colossians 3:22-23
Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men
If I am to do the work of God on sabbath, and I am to consider all my employmemt as though working for God, not men, is it not hypocrisy to refuse my employers request, claiming 'sabbath'?
I sin against him by my refusal, and I sin against the person who covers that shift too, and I sin against God because I am supposed to look at my employment as tho it is working for God - and I sin against God again because He told me to go two miles instead of 1 if I'm compeled to go, and He commanded me not to refuse the one who asks me.
Jesus never stopped working. He says the Father does not stop working. What possible justification can I have to deny His example?
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I was claiming that Romans 14 was about fasting. So yes about eating, but not just what to eat.... when to eat it. There is nothing in The Father's law that decides this for us. So to judge people based off of how they fast is unlawful, and therefore an unrighteous judgement.
Many people are not open to looking outside of the bible for answers, but I believe it can be very useful for helping to understand context and culture. I believe Josephus (and others) has some writings about antiquities and the big fasting debates at the time of these scriptures.
As far the Sabbath is concerned, I believe the place to start is where the commandment is given:
Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, maintaining its holiness. 9 Six days you are to labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You are not to do any work—neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your livestock, nor any foreigner who lives among you— 11 because the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them in six days. Then he rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The two main things I get from the commandment here is.
1. Keep the day "holy." Holy means set apart/designated for a specific purpose. So I definitely believe that we aren't supposed to treat this day the same as the others.
2. Not to work on this day. This includes your household, as well as the "foreigner" (gentile) that want's to live with you. In order to be welcomed as a brother or sister I believe that you have to respect the instructions from the Father of the home.
Now I believe the law has two components... the works and the faith, the physical and the spiritual, the WHAT we do and the WHY we do it. If you have tunnel vision on the physical side of the law and forget WHY you are doing said law, you still can end up breaking it. So in other words, I don't believe that we are breaking a law if we are keeping WHY it was created in the first place...
I believe that there was never anything wrong with the law (The Fathers instructions on how to live). The problem was mankind not being able to keep the law how it was always meant to be kept. The Pharisees for example added and took away from the law (E.g. washing your hands before you eat.), as well as completely missed the spiritual component of the law. This misrepresentation of God's law happens all throughout scripture and was used to judge unrighteous... just like in Roman's 14. This is where the modern day Judaism stems from and their oral law.
I believe that The Messiah came to pay the penalties associated with the real law under the first covenant and reteach us how the law was always meant to be kept... a second chance.
Circling back to the Sabbath, I believe there is a key distinction between God's work... and man's work that we are to restrain from.
If we are helping those in need (sick, homeless, hungry, etc) that is done out of love and therefore keeping the spiritual component of the Sabbath...
Matthew 12:11-12
11 But he asked them, “Is there a man among you who, if he had one sheep and it fell into a ditch on the Sabbath, wouldn’t take hold of it and pull it out? 12 How much more is a human being worth than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on Sabbath days.”
However, man's work is doing things for personal gain... or helping others who are doing the same. It is done out of selfishness.
We keep the Sabbath out of love, honor, respect and trust that the father knows better for us than we know for ourselves. So we take this day to rest and set it apart out of love... therefore keeping both the spiritual and physical components of the law.
Many people are not open to looking outside of the bible for answers, but I believe it can be very useful for helping to understand context and culture. I believe Josephus (and others) has some writings about antiquities and the big fasting debates at the time of these scriptures.
As far the Sabbath is concerned, I believe the place to start is where the commandment is given:
Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, maintaining its holiness. 9 Six days you are to labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You are not to do any work—neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your livestock, nor any foreigner who lives among you— 11 because the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them in six days. Then he rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The two main things I get from the commandment here is.
1. Keep the day "holy." Holy means set apart/designated for a specific purpose. So I definitely believe that we aren't supposed to treat this day the same as the others.
2. Not to work on this day. This includes your household, as well as the "foreigner" (gentile) that want's to live with you. In order to be welcomed as a brother or sister I believe that you have to respect the instructions from the Father of the home.
Now I believe the law has two components... the works and the faith, the physical and the spiritual, the WHAT we do and the WHY we do it. If you have tunnel vision on the physical side of the law and forget WHY you are doing said law, you still can end up breaking it. So in other words, I don't believe that we are breaking a law if we are keeping WHY it was created in the first place...
I believe that there was never anything wrong with the law (The Fathers instructions on how to live). The problem was mankind not being able to keep the law how it was always meant to be kept. The Pharisees for example added and took away from the law (E.g. washing your hands before you eat.), as well as completely missed the spiritual component of the law. This misrepresentation of God's law happens all throughout scripture and was used to judge unrighteous... just like in Roman's 14. This is where the modern day Judaism stems from and their oral law.
I believe that The Messiah came to pay the penalties associated with the real law under the first covenant and reteach us how the law was always meant to be kept... a second chance.
Circling back to the Sabbath, I believe there is a key distinction between God's work... and man's work that we are to restrain from.
If we are helping those in need (sick, homeless, hungry, etc) that is done out of love and therefore keeping the spiritual component of the Sabbath...
Matthew 12:11-12
11 But he asked them, “Is there a man among you who, if he had one sheep and it fell into a ditch on the Sabbath, wouldn’t take hold of it and pull it out? 12 How much more is a human being worth than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on Sabbath days.”
However, man's work is doing things for personal gain... or helping others who are doing the same. It is done out of selfishness.
We keep the Sabbath out of love, honor, respect and trust that the father knows better for us than we know for ourselves. So we take this day to rest and set it apart out of love... therefore keeping both the spiritual and physical components of the law.
Actually, you are proving my point. Whether it be through me missing some sort of context, a mistranslation, etc., you never show how any verse I have posted is being misinterpreted. Instead, you just point to another verse from Paul that you believe counteracts the scriptures I give.
If you cant show how other authors are being misinterpreted, all you are doing by pointing back to Paul is indirectly indicating contradiction.... People then have to choose between believing the verses in Paul or verses from other authors.
If you cant show how other authors are being misinterpreted, all you are doing by pointing back to Paul is indirectly indicating contradiction.... People then have to choose between believing the verses in Paul or verses from other authors.
can you give an example of this statement?[/QUOTE]
Things for personal gain - materialistic reasons. For example... Buying and selling things was pointed out in scripture. The first thing that comes to mind in the new testament was the Messiah throwing people out of the temple and overturning the tables.
Things for personal gain - materialistic reasons. For example... Buying and selling things was pointed out in scripture. The first thing that comes to mind in the new testament was the Messiah throwing people out of the temple and overturning the tables.
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Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters
(Colossians 3:23)
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
(John 5:16-17)
whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
(Matthew 5:41)
whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
(Matthew 5:41)
what do you think is being misinterpreted?you want me to go through this thread and address every single post, but you won't address one point from me?
i don't have time to do that, frankly.
did Jesus ever refuse to help anyone, 'because sabbath' ?
are we to treat all our work as tho we are working for God, yes or no?
i don't have time to do that, frankly.
Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
(Matthew 5:42)
i'm not appealing to a pile of 'esoteric sayings of Paul' as you say, bruh, i'm pointing to Jesus. did Jesus ever refuse to help anyone, 'because sabbath' ?
are we to treat all our work as tho we are working for God, yes or no?
so if your boss asks you to work on saturday, you should do it, and do it for free, and refuse pay
otherwise you sin against him because you leave him in need when it's in your hand to help, and you sin against God because you should treat your work as tho to God not your human boss, and you sin against your conscience because you think working for pay is wrong.
otherwise you sin against him because you leave him in need when it's in your hand to help, and you sin against God because you should treat your work as tho to God not your human boss, and you sin against your conscience because you think working for pay is wrong.
Do not say to your neighbor,
“Go, and come back, and tomorrow I will give it,”
when you have it with you.
(Proverbs 3:28)
If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
(Matthew 5:40-42)
refusing to do what is asked of you is not what sabbath is about.
E
typical lawyer reaction to the truth. Once again you have paul LIEING and not knowing what he is talking about. And paul out the james trump card thinking you have won the argument.
Face it man, You stihl lose
Paul spoke to people like you. Lawyers who think they can obey the law. Who think they must earn their salvation by works. Who think the way to God is through our own works of righteousness. Hence he stated a fact. Abraham was found APART from works. If you would study more and not pick and chose which parts of the Bible you want to listen to and what parts to reject. You would know by reading in genesis. That Abraham was saved because he believed God BEFORE he did any works, His works of faith came AFTER his salvation by faith. Hence as Paul said in Ephesians 2 We are saved By GRACE through faith, not by works. But our new creation is that we work.
James on the other hand, is talking to people who are hears of the word only. Not doers. People who think they believe and maybe say some sinners prayer. And are saved, now they can live however they want.
Notice what James said. Did he say they had faith?
James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
1. He says they claim to have faith’
2. He asks the question. Can that CLAIMED faith save them.
Did Abrahams faith come without works? Read hebrews 11. EVERYONE who had faith proved that faith by works. There was not a person on that list of faith that did not work after their salvation. BECAUSE WORKS ARE A RESULT OF FAITH
So James, in fighting licentious people. Ask them to PROPVE they had faith by their works (he was talking directly to those people. Not to people like you demanding you fruit inspect other people to see if they are saved or not) To test their own faith. If YOU CLAIM to have faith. But your a hearer not a doer. Can your faith save you. His answer was NO! Pauls answer is NO! They did not contradict each other, they are in agreement. (paul did not talk with licentious people he spoke to legalistic people like you. So you must read pauls message in context).
Even demons believe, mere belief never saved anyone.
If you think your saved by how good you are. You a=have not been taught by the law. As James said, If you keep the WHOLE LAW yet stumble in just one point, your guilty of all. James made it clear. No one is good enough. NO ONE!
Your not good enough my friend, You are in danger.
Face it man, You stihl lose
Paul spoke to people like you. Lawyers who think they can obey the law. Who think they must earn their salvation by works. Who think the way to God is through our own works of righteousness. Hence he stated a fact. Abraham was found APART from works. If you would study more and not pick and chose which parts of the Bible you want to listen to and what parts to reject. You would know by reading in genesis. That Abraham was saved because he believed God BEFORE he did any works, His works of faith came AFTER his salvation by faith. Hence as Paul said in Ephesians 2 We are saved By GRACE through faith, not by works. But our new creation is that we work.
James on the other hand, is talking to people who are hears of the word only. Not doers. People who think they believe and maybe say some sinners prayer. And are saved, now they can live however they want.
Notice what James said. Did he say they had faith?
James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
1. He says they claim to have faith’
2. He asks the question. Can that CLAIMED faith save them.
Did Abrahams faith come without works? Read hebrews 11. EVERYONE who had faith proved that faith by works. There was not a person on that list of faith that did not work after their salvation. BECAUSE WORKS ARE A RESULT OF FAITH
So James, in fighting licentious people. Ask them to PROPVE they had faith by their works (he was talking directly to those people. Not to people like you demanding you fruit inspect other people to see if they are saved or not) To test their own faith. If YOU CLAIM to have faith. But your a hearer not a doer. Can your faith save you. His answer was NO! Pauls answer is NO! They did not contradict each other, they are in agreement. (paul did not talk with licentious people he spoke to legalistic people like you. So you must read pauls message in context).
Even demons believe, mere belief never saved anyone.
If you think your saved by how good you are. You a=have not been taught by the law. As James said, If you keep the WHOLE LAW yet stumble in just one point, your guilty of all. James made it clear. No one is good enough. NO ONE!
Your not good enough my friend, You are in danger.
E
Funny how I HAVE POSTED MOSES. I HAVE POSTED JAMES, AND I HAVE POSTED JESUS
and you have not remarked on any of these passages which PROVE they believed as James did
Funny, How you IGNORE PAUL, and make paul into CONTRADICTING THE REST OF THE WORD.
Face it dude. You are making the Bible a book that can not be trusted. As God had PAU:L WRITE MOST OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, AND WE HAVE TO IGNORE WHAT PAUL SAID.
You keep hurting your own case man. You keep saying NO ONE posts other passsages, Yet you ignore every time we do.
We have responded to your passages. They do not say what you claim. You take them out of Context. And make them contradict other aspects of scripture. ALL SCRIPTURE (Including pauls) IS GOD BREATHED AND PROPHIITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION AND FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
ALL scripture my friend. You can ignore half the NT just because it does not support your doctrines.
and you have not remarked on any of these passages which PROVE they believed as James did
Funny, How you IGNORE PAUL, and make paul into CONTRADICTING THE REST OF THE WORD.
Face it dude. You are making the Bible a book that can not be trusted. As God had PAU:L WRITE MOST OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, AND WE HAVE TO IGNORE WHAT PAUL SAID.
You keep hurting your own case man. You keep saying NO ONE posts other passsages, Yet you ignore every time we do.
We have responded to your passages. They do not say what you claim. You take them out of Context. And make them contradict other aspects of scripture. ALL SCRIPTURE (Including pauls) IS GOD BREATHED AND PROPHIITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION AND FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
ALL scripture my friend. You can ignore half the NT just because it does not support your doctrines.
E
By using the rest of scripture to test. Is it in harmony, Or is it in di harmony.
If its in harmony. Your probably ok. If it contradicts. You know your interpretation must be wrong.
You can;t have one person claiming we are saved by Grace alone. Not by our own works of righteousness, but by Gods mercy. Through the washing and renewal of the spirit. Then another person saying we are saved by works. That would have them in contradiction with each other.
which for most honest people. Would cause us to see we have an interpretative issue and we need to realign our thinking
If its in harmony. Your probably ok. If it contradicts. You know your interpretation must be wrong.
You can;t have one person claiming we are saved by Grace alone. Not by our own works of righteousness, but by Gods mercy. Through the washing and renewal of the spirit. Then another person saying we are saved by works. That would have them in contradiction with each other.
which for most honest people. Would cause us to see we have an interpretative issue and we need to realign our thinking
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