2 Thessalonians 2:3—Rebellion or Apostasy?
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I hate to keep harping on this but the Bible does not equate the Reign of Antichrist precisely with the Great Tribulation. In Luke 21 the Great Tribulation is the punishment of Israel in the NT era, which affects both believing and unbelieving Jews in different ways. And since the Gospel has now been expanded into all nations, this "punishment" affects nations that have become Christian and have fallen away. Christian nations are now being punished for their own apostasies.
And so, we hear of an "apostasy" that will take place under Antichrist. In the OT Scriptures, the sense of national apostasy is well known from the Babylonian Captivity. But in the NT era, this apostasy is overtaking European Christianity, which is where the Kingdom of God went after Israel fell. "I will take the Kingdom of God from you and give it to a nation worthy of it." That "nation" was the Roman Empire.
And now, we're seeing this apostasy taken place in the heart of Christendom. It all relates back to Dan 7, where the Little Horn is depicted as boasting against God and attacking God's People. And in the process he acquires followers, including 10 nations who support his empire. This, coming from formerly Christian Europe, will constitute an "apostasy."
And so, we hear of an "apostasy" that will take place under Antichrist. In the OT Scriptures, the sense of national apostasy is well known from the Babylonian Captivity. But in the NT era, this apostasy is overtaking European Christianity, which is where the Kingdom of God went after Israel fell. "I will take the Kingdom of God from you and give it to a nation worthy of it." That "nation" was the Roman Empire.
And now, we're seeing this apostasy taken place in the heart of Christendom. It all relates back to Dan 7, where the Little Horn is depicted as boasting against God and attacking God's People. And in the process he acquires followers, including 10 nations who support his empire. This, coming from formerly Christian Europe, will constitute an "apostasy."
Praise God.. great question. Is it just a fallen away or departure. Some say its a fallen away .. to that I say it depends where you look I guess 
Well if we take just China alone Christianity is growing Back to the word.. not many today know ancient Greek. For me what was being talked about before all this...would seem something .. hmm something has to be taken out of the way before the lawless one can come out in the open. Which odd that he can't right now.. hmm who WHAT has ALL POWER and ALL AUTHORITY over him? My view
Well if we take just China alone Christianity is growing Back to the word.. not many today know ancient Greek. For me what was being talked about before all this...would seem something .. hmm something has to be taken out of the way before the lawless one can come out in the open. Which odd that he can't right now.. hmm who WHAT has ALL POWER and ALL AUTHORITY over him? My view
Legalism, in its truest sense, is turning away from Christ to be self-justified apart from Christ. It is not to be defined as "Christian imperfection." It is not to be defined as exercising our free will in choosing Christ as our Savior, nor is it to be defined as choosing to obey Christ after we have been saved.
Therefore, we shouldn't condemn the whole of Christianity , due to its imperfections, but focus on bringing them the true Gospel. It's true that the true Gospel has to do with turning our lives completely over to Christ, to be justified by his own righteousness.
Only his spotless record will qualify for eternal life, and we can qualify for that through him, through receiving his Spirit. It does need to be said, though without a condemnatory spirit.
Your fear of our participation in "getting saved" and "staying saved" is sometimes a misplaced concern, and sometimes I think it's legit. We have free will, and must choose to receive Christ, and we must choose to obey Christ after we are saved.
But it is in choosing for Christ alone that enables us to participate in what I call "Salvation." This is defined not as "getting saved," but as the experience that becomes ours *after* we have gotten saved by Christ. Paul exhorted us to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."
Phil 2.12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Therefore, we shouldn't condemn the whole of Christianity , due to its imperfections, but focus on bringing them the true Gospel. It's true that the true Gospel has to do with turning our lives completely over to Christ, to be justified by his own righteousness.
Only his spotless record will qualify for eternal life, and we can qualify for that through him, through receiving his Spirit. It does need to be said, though without a condemnatory spirit.
Your fear of our participation in "getting saved" and "staying saved" is sometimes a misplaced concern, and sometimes I think it's legit. We have free will, and must choose to receive Christ, and we must choose to obey Christ after we are saved.
But it is in choosing for Christ alone that enables us to participate in what I call "Salvation." This is defined not as "getting saved," but as the experience that becomes ours *after* we have gotten saved by Christ. Paul exhorted us to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."
Phil 2.12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
I agree the spirit is not the body. However, Jesus said whoever looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery already in his heart. So it comes down to what you believe the "heart" is. Personally, I believe it's the mind or consciousness (also known as spirit).
When we're born again into Christ we're given the mind, or consciousness of Christ. Technically we're dead to sin, but we struggle with it as long as we're in the body. So there's the body and the old mind. All sin begins in the mind; we contemplate it and we either let it go and turn to the Holy Spirit for help, or we give in to the the thoughts of the old mind.
So yes, I believe our old spirit (consciousness) is vulnerable to sin; the new consciousness, or Spirit of Christ, can't sin.
When we're born again into Christ we're given the mind, or consciousness of Christ. Technically we're dead to sin, but we struggle with it as long as we're in the body. So there's the body and the old mind. All sin begins in the mind; we contemplate it and we either let it go and turn to the Holy Spirit for help, or we give in to the the thoughts of the old mind.
So yes, I believe our old spirit (consciousness) is vulnerable to sin; the new consciousness, or Spirit of Christ, can't sin.
My point is that the Greek word can easily be used for the extreme rejection of God by human beings. 2 verses say that people refused to repent.
I wish you had cited a verse for this. I've always thought there is a difference between "tribulaton" and "the Great Tribulation". It is obvious that believers have suffered tribulation since Christ's First Advent.
I see this as a referral to the 7 year end times Great Tribulation.
I see this apostasy being in place even before the beast (ac) takes his place as world leader. If fact, the apostasy quite possibly will be the motivator for the beast to rule.
My understanding is that God has used a number of Gentile nations (government) as sort of the world's "moral policeman" which would be a restrainer of the beast (ac). The latest "restrainer" has been the USA. But now that the admin is in full Marxist mode, the USA is no longer any kind of "moral policeman" for the world. In fact, evil is being encouraged everywhere.
I believe that 2 Thess 2 refers to moral government as what has restrained the "man of evil" from being a global ruler.
Yes this was also also my point. Christendom has been so watered down and twisted and perverted, it's hard to find many who understand the truth of Scripture.
A brief look at all the subjects (and responses) on the various Christian forums proves how screwed up those claiming to be Christians are these days.
So when the Bible says that the devil "deceives the WHOLE world" and "leads the WHOLE world astray", it isn't kidding. These statements aren't just describing unbelievers, but believers, who hold to many unbiblical doctrines, as these forums attest to.
I wish you had cited a verse for this. I've always thought there is a difference between "tribulaton" and "the Great Tribulation". It is obvious that believers have suffered tribulation since Christ's First Advent.
I see this as a referral to the 7 year end times Great Tribulation.
I see this apostasy being in place even before the beast (ac) takes his place as world leader. If fact, the apostasy quite possibly will be the motivator for the beast to rule.
My understanding is that God has used a number of Gentile nations (government) as sort of the world's "moral policeman" which would be a restrainer of the beast (ac). The latest "restrainer" has been the USA. But now that the admin is in full Marxist mode, the USA is no longer any kind of "moral policeman" for the world. In fact, evil is being encouraged everywhere.
I believe that 2 Thess 2 refers to moral government as what has restrained the "man of evil" from being a global ruler.
Yes this was also also my point. Christendom has been so watered down and twisted and perverted, it's hard to find many who understand the truth of Scripture.
A brief look at all the subjects (and responses) on the various Christian forums proves how screwed up those claiming to be Christians are these days.
So when the Bible says that the devil "deceives the WHOLE world" and "leads the WHOLE world astray", it isn't kidding. These statements aren't just describing unbelievers, but believers, who hold to many unbiblical doctrines, as these forums attest to.
How so many translators get "fall away" from the Greek skandalisthēsontai in that verse is a mystery to me. It means: Set a snare or put up a stumbling block; to hinder right conduct or thought. Instead of many falling away it means that many will put up stumbling blocks to cause the faithful to stumble!
In Luke 17:1 Jesus says: "Now He said to His disciples, 'It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to one through whom they come!'" (NASB) The Greek translated "stumbling block" is skandala, the root of skandalisthēsontai.
In Luke 17:1 Jesus says: "Now He said to His disciples, 'It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to one through whom they come!'" (NASB) The Greek translated "stumbling block" is skandala, the root of skandalisthēsontai.
ResidentAlien:
I completely agree this Verse from the Codex S really changes the KJV Verses and it gives us a clearer view at what Paul is factually claiming here, which is today being preached butt backwards..
3 Let no one deceive you in any way, because, unless the apostasy come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every one that is called God, or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, openly showing himself that he is God.
I completely agree this Verse from the Codex S really changes the KJV Verses and it gives us a clearer view at what Paul is factually claiming here, which is today being preached butt backwards..
3 Let no one deceive you in any way, because, unless the apostasy come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every one that is called God, or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, openly showing himself that he is God.
I'm not contesting your point as much as adding to it. "Apostasy" is a kind of violent overthrow of divine law. It implies a religious order is in place, and then abandoned--often violently.
I've shared this on a number of forums, and it's amazing to me how many go quiet and refuse to respond to the plain facts, simply because they haven't been taught this, and they can't believe so many have been wrong, or missed it. But there's a reason for eschatological imbalances, though this discussion may be for another place and time.
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
This couldn't be more plain-spoken. The "Great Tribulation," as defined here by Jesus, refers to a Jewish punishment, lasting from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the end of the age, when Jesus returns. It affects believers and unbelievers in Israel differently. And the reason this is given to the international Church is because later, the Great Commission would be mandated to the Apostles, so that in the Christianization of Europe a similar situation would result as would happen with Israel after 70 AD.
Israel didn't always get exiled when they fell into apostasy, though that did happen in 586 BC and also in 70 AD. However, as European Christianity has fallen into apostasy, as well, the "punishment" God inflicts upon them are a number of curses, and not necessarily exile. It wasn't always exile for Israel either. But there is no question in my mind that "European Christianity" is under judgment right now, with European nations suffering all kinds of problems associated with their fall from grace.
Israel's punishment in the modern era began after 70 AD. God's punishment of European Christianity has been all through NT history, through wars, plagues, and various catastrophes and economic downturns. The final 3.5 years of the age are documented only in Dan 7, and in the book of Revelation, which seems to be obviously referring back to Dan 7. There is no 7 year Great Tribulation, in my view. Nor is the reign of Antichrist a "Great Tribulation" in itself, but only the end of Israel's time of punishment, as well as bringing an end to the punishment of Christian nations. You can see that I reject the equation of "Great Tribulation" to "Reign of Antichrist." The sense of "tribulation," as Jesus used it, refers to the curses of disobedience, which was initially inflicted upon Israel in 70 AD.
The apostasy of Christianity in Europe has been taking place since the corruption of Catholicism in the Middle Ages, and particularly since the Enlightenment. In our day, we see former Christian countries beginning to place Christianity on a par with Islam.
I agree with this. The Early Church Fathers thought that the govt. of the Roman Empire was the "Restrainer," just as Daniel 7 indicated the 4th Kingdom would be united initially, preventing its breakup and reconsolidation under Antichrist.
As we know from history, Romanism was Christianized, and continued to prevent Antichristianity from taking root. Ultimately, the Holy Roman Empire broke up amidst the secularization of the Enlightenment period and its philosophy of humanism. Christian nations, like the US used to be, continued, as a superpower, to prevent reconsolidation of the European states under Antichrist--witness the US defeat of Germany and Japan. But as you indicate, the US is quickly losing its moral authority, if it isn't already gone!
Much truth in that! Thanks--largely agreed.
I've shared this on a number of forums, and it's amazing to me how many go quiet and refuse to respond to the plain facts, simply because they haven't been taught this, and they can't believe so many have been wrong, or missed it. But there's a reason for eschatological imbalances, though this discussion may be for another place and time.
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
This couldn't be more plain-spoken. The "Great Tribulation," as defined here by Jesus, refers to a Jewish punishment, lasting from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the end of the age, when Jesus returns. It affects believers and unbelievers in Israel differently. And the reason this is given to the international Church is because later, the Great Commission would be mandated to the Apostles, so that in the Christianization of Europe a similar situation would result as would happen with Israel after 70 AD.
Israel didn't always get exiled when they fell into apostasy, though that did happen in 586 BC and also in 70 AD. However, as European Christianity has fallen into apostasy, as well, the "punishment" God inflicts upon them are a number of curses, and not necessarily exile. It wasn't always exile for Israel either. But there is no question in my mind that "European Christianity" is under judgment right now, with European nations suffering all kinds of problems associated with their fall from grace.
Israel's punishment in the modern era began after 70 AD. God's punishment of European Christianity has been all through NT history, through wars, plagues, and various catastrophes and economic downturns. The final 3.5 years of the age are documented only in Dan 7, and in the book of Revelation, which seems to be obviously referring back to Dan 7. There is no 7 year Great Tribulation, in my view. Nor is the reign of Antichrist a "Great Tribulation" in itself, but only the end of Israel's time of punishment, as well as bringing an end to the punishment of Christian nations. You can see that I reject the equation of "Great Tribulation" to "Reign of Antichrist." The sense of "tribulation," as Jesus used it, refers to the curses of disobedience, which was initially inflicted upon Israel in 70 AD.
The apostasy of Christianity in Europe has been taking place since the corruption of Catholicism in the Middle Ages, and particularly since the Enlightenment. In our day, we see former Christian countries beginning to place Christianity on a par with Islam.
I agree with this. The Early Church Fathers thought that the govt. of the Roman Empire was the "Restrainer," just as Daniel 7 indicated the 4th Kingdom would be united initially, preventing its breakup and reconsolidation under Antichrist.
As we know from history, Romanism was Christianized, and continued to prevent Antichristianity from taking root. Ultimately, the Holy Roman Empire broke up amidst the secularization of the Enlightenment period and its philosophy of humanism. Christian nations, like the US used to be, continued, as a superpower, to prevent reconsolidation of the European states under Antichrist--witness the US defeat of Germany and Japan. But as you indicate, the US is quickly losing its moral authority, if it isn't already gone!
Much truth in that! Thanks--largely agreed.
Read this Verse carefully and compare it to the KJV.
The Codex gives more words that provide a clearer meaning to what this Verse is all about.
The Codex S:
3 Let no one deceive you in any way, because, unless the apostasy come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every one that is called God, or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, openly showing himself that he is God.
The KJV:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
We clearly [LEARN MORE] from the CODEX versus the KJV!
Keywords there being teaching and zealous. Teaching is a process and zealousness is somet
For me it's a bit different.
Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted after her? I have and I think most adults do. But at the same time do you also sincerely not want to lust after a woman in your heart, but find that you do it sometimes anyway? That's because there are two laws working within you. There's the law of sin and the law of the God.
Paul describes his own struggle with fleshly sin like this:
Romans 7:18-25
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you understand this duality, you have a born again spirit that serves God and also corrupted flesh that serves sin. The body has to be gradually trained into submission.
For me it's a bit different.
Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted after her? I have and I think most adults do. But at the same time do you also sincerely not want to lust after a woman in your heart, but find that you do it sometimes anyway? That's because there are two laws working within you. There's the law of sin and the law of the God.
Paul describes his own struggle with fleshly sin like this:
Romans 7:18-25
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If you understand this duality, you have a born again spirit that serves God and also corrupted flesh that serves sin. The body has to be gradually trained into submission.
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