Does God Exist? William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens - Full Debate [HD] - YouTube

[Icedaisey]

One thing. Christopher Hitchens now knows the definitive answer to this question.

 

[Kidron]

One thing. Christopher Hitchens now knows the definitive answer to this question.

God took that liar off the earth.
He does this a lot.
God is not mocked.

 

[Icedaisey]

In November 2010, the writer Christopher Hitchens, then dying of cancer, gave this long interview to Jeremy Paxman. Filmed at Hitchens's home in New York, it was a wide-ranging discussion, with Hitchens characteristically unflinching in his exploration of contemporary controversies, as well as his own illness and death.

Christopher Hitchens was in remission from his cancer in 2011. Then he had occasion to enter hospital and there contracted Pneumonia and died. RIP sir.

 

[mindfulzen]

In November 2010, the writer Christopher Hitchens, then dying of cancer, gave this long interview to Jeremy Paxman. Filmed at Hitchens's home in New York, it was a wide-ranging discussion, with Hitchens characteristically unflinching in his exploration of contemporary controversies, as well as his own illness and death.

Christopher Hitchens was in remission from his cancer in 2011. Then he had occasion to enter hospital and there contracted Pneumonia and died. RIP sir.

A very sad loss, Christopher was a great person, many a truth about how people should act towards eachother and we lost a bluntness and a sharp mind on the atheist aisle. The world lost a bridge between left/right, christian/atheist, if people agree or not. My first path to faith, showed me scripture, regardless of him being angry about the verses, it taught me someting else. Sad to see him so physically frail in the end, but good to see that he was mentally strong and at peace. And I liked how he spent much time with a certain christian person, he disagreed with and got along very well. Inspirational person.

 

[Icedaisey]

A very sad loss, Christopher was a great person, many a truth about how people should act towards eachother and we lost a bluntness and a sharp mind on the atheist aisle. The world lost a bridge between left/right, christian/atheist, if people agree or not. My first path to faith, showed me scripture, regardless of him being angry about the verses, it taught me someting else. Sad to see him so physically frail in the end, but good to see that he was mentally strong and at peace. And I liked how he spent much time with a certain christian person, he disagreed with and got along very well. Inspirational person.

Agreed. Interestingly, his brother was a Theist. That must have made for interesting family conversations at get togethers. Especially after one of CH's book tours.

One thing he said in his interview there was, in brief due to language. The Christian God has created a world in which "We are born sick and commanded to be well."

I use to dismiss CH. Then one day I was led by the spirit to listen to one of his most recent lectures. And it was then that I realized that his purpose is to make us think beyond blind faith. To question the root of what we're to believe. God gave us a mind and he meant us to use it.

Then when I started to do the research on how the Bible came to exist, I realized why even more so I was led to watch CH's interview on that day.
I think that is why a copyist put in the scripture that we are not to believe every spirit but to test them. To see which is of God and discern which is not, is of man.

"Misquoting Jesus" by Dr. Bart Ehrman is a masterwork imo for that purpose. Realizing the history of our Bible and the journey to arrive at the copies and versions we take for granted today. When in the past there was no printing press, there was no massive publishing house that would print off copy after copy and then ship them about the land. And, there was no copyright laws either. And that last part wasn't something that immediately came to mind when I already recognized how manuscripts were produced. Of course there was no printing press. It was people copying, and choosing to omit copy or words, or who were not that versed in the language and grammar form necessary to translate and commit to a different language.

But copyright? Of course not. But it never came to mind because of course that means there was no legal mandate to keep text to its original form. And being the copyists back then knew their work may be altered by another in future, they would often try to assuage that tendency by levying a curse against the person and possibility. As in Revelation 22:19.
Or even in Paul's letters and Galatians 1.

Christopher led me to look beyond the book created by man to find the powerful God who breathes within and on the page. And who leads me, and those who are open, to seek and find his truth. And it is there. Everywhere we look.
Even in the image and likeness of Christopher Hitchens.

 

[mindfulzen]

Agreed. Interestingly, his brother was a Theist. That must have made for interesting family conversations at get togethers. Especially after one of CH's book tours.

One thing he said in his interview there was, in brief due to language. The Christian God has created a world in which "We are born sick and commanded to be well."

I use to dismiss CH. Then one day I was led by the spirit to listen to one of his most recent lectures. And it was then that I realized that his purpose is to make us think beyond blind faith. To question the root of what we're to believe. God gave us a mind and he meant us to use it.

Then when I started to do the research on how the Bible came to exist, I realized why even more so I was led to watch CH's interview on that day.
I think that is why a copyist put in the scripture that we are not to believe every spirit but to test them. To see which is of God and discern which is not, is of man.

"Misquoting Jesus" by Dr. Bart Ehrman is a masterwork imo for that purpose. Realizing the history of our Bible and the journey to arrive at the copies and versions we take for granted today. When in the past there was no printing press, there was no massive publishing house that would print off copy after copy and then ship them about the land. And, there was no copyright laws either. And that last part wasn't something that immediately came to mind when I already recognized how manuscripts were produced. Of course there was no printing press. It was people copying, and choosing to omit copy or words, or who were not that versed in the language and grammar form necessary to translate and commit to a different language.

But copyright? Of course not. But it never came to mind because of course that means there was no legal mandate to keep text to its original form. And being the copyists back then knew their work may be altered by another in future, they would often try to assuage that tendency by levying a curse against the person and possibility. As in Revelation 22:19.
Or even in Paul's letters and Galatians 1.

Christopher led me to look beyond the book created by man to find the powerful God who breathes within and on the page. And who leads me, and those who are open, to seek and find his truth. And it is there. Everywhere we look.
Even in the image and likeness of Christopher Hitchens.

I also found it interesting that his brother was a theist as an atheist, but not now. Peter Hitchens is a very good guy, and common sensical as they come, but he is not a brainiac for me, as Hitchens was. I cannot condone Christophers lifechoices anymore, and how he treated good faith people who disagreed with, but I understand it, because I was very much like him in that regards. And was a diciple of Hitchens so to speak. We shared a point oof view, so he became an unfallable authority, so I bame a parrot of him, rather than doing my own legwork, so it restrained my mind from evolving. Felt morally and intellectually superior, without doing the legwork on christianity, because he knew so much about Islam, snd we shared anger at that after 9/11. But, it is interesting to me, that Christophers freespirited and indepent nevermindism I do not care what you thinkism, made him able to effortlessly get much work done, and cover a lot of ground. Doing what you love, and not give a bleep about what others think, is the reason I think.

While Peter on the other hand, followed rules, and was restraint, did not step over lines, till his brother was gone. He was very fond of his brother who did not want to talk to him, and respected him greatly. Did debate his brother in what he knew was a losing debate in the publics opinion. Just to spend some time with him, even for just an argument and get mocked. That is strength, endurance and love. After Christopher died, Peter changed, and started being more free and courages, stepping over lines himself, and took up Christophers torch in many regards. I think his faith inhibited him in the past, and he did not take risks, so was not as effective. Now he is a very important voice for brits. They did not do get togethers, Christopher hated him for most of their lives. Because Christopher had such conviction in antitheism sadly, that he could not love his brother publicly.. Stronger conviction than many christians I think. I do not think faith should be a battle between people and factions.

I think you are spot on, about Christophers purpose for christians, but sadly most just shield themselves from being challenged. Sine I was an angry antitheist, and Christopher lead me to scripture of value to me, and people he disagreed with, who I agreed some with. And eventually it changed me, and my heart.

I do not understand what you type about copyright and printing press. Just a bunch of words saying little. I do not know most of the bible from reading it, only read 25% or so, probably know the essence of 90% from being an angry atheist, but have gotten verselines out of context. And it is not relevant to my faith, I got it, I was given a gift that made my life much easier, and gave me a calm I never had before. Despite everything in my life becoming much more problematic in practical terms. And that is what faith is about. Trust, blind trust if you will, but it is not blind. You know enough for you, you do not need others to tell you what you must know. People are individuals, so I must not know as much as you do, to have faith and a personal relationship with God. If I have it. 1500 pages almost, manual to life, people have various struggles, if the book helps some on one issue, they find the faith without reading the rest, thousand ways leading to God, few walk the same path. Some make it complicated for themselves, I try to make it easy. Never sought God or faith, got it, not resisting it. Now seeking more knowledge, but the faith is fortified forever. You are living out Jesus, if you are christian and have some credit to Give Christopher Hitchens. I like it. Good post brother or sister.

 

[mindfulzen]

God took that liar off the earth.
He does this a lot.
God is not mocked.

I suggest you do not judge. God tells you not to judge others, as did he as Jesus, but you keep doing it while telling others to not do it. Christopher Hitchens has expired, and that is another reason to not judge him. He is in no position to defend himself anymore. Think about it, would God want you to judge a dead person? And a dead person who changed his ways before the end, becoming a kinder person? Learn, disagree or agree, love or compassion regardless, no judgement or hate. If that appears, pray to God to forgive you for feeling that way. Do not speak for God. He speaks for himself.

 

[Icedaisey]

I also found it interesting that his brother was a theist as an atheist, but not now. Peter Hitchens is a very good guy, and common sensical as they come, but he is not a brainiac for me, as Hitchens was. I cannot condone Christophers lifechoices anymore, and how he treated good faith people who disagreed with, but I understand it, because I was very much like him in that regards. And was a diciple of Hitchens so to speak. We shared a point oof view, so he became an unfallable authority, so I bame a parrot of him, rather than doing my own legwork, so it restrained my mind from evolving. Felt morally and intellectually superior, without doing the legwork on christianity, because he knew so much about Islam, snd we shared anger at that after 9/11. But, it is interesting to me, that Christophers freespirited and indepent nevermindism I do not care what you thinkism, made him able to effortlessly get much work done, and cover a lot of ground. Doing what you love, and not give a bleep about what others think, is the reason I think.

While Peter on the other hand, followed rules, and was restraint, did not step over lines, till his brother was gone. He was very fond of his brother who did not want to talk to him, and respected him greatly. Did debate his brother in what he knew was a losing debate in the publics opinion. Just to spend some time with him, even for just an argument and get mocked. That is strength, endurance and love. After Christopher died, Peter changed, and started being more free and courages, stepping over lines himself, and took up Christophers torch in many regards. I think his faith inhibited him in the past, and he did not take risks, so was not as effective. Now he is a very important voice for brits. They did not do get togethers, Christopher hated him for most of their lives. Because Christopher had such conviction in antitheism sadly, that he could not love his brother publicly.. Stronger conviction than many christians I think. I do not think faith should be a battle between people and factions.

I think you are spot on, about Christophers purpose for christians, but sadly most just shield themselves from being challenged. Sine I was an angry antitheist, and Christopher lead me to scripture of value to me, and people he disagreed with, who I agreed some with. And eventually it changed me, and my heart.

I do not understand what you type about copyright and printing press. Just a bunch of words saying little. I do not know most of the bible from reading it, only read 25% or so, probably know the essence of 90% from being an angry atheist, but have gotten verselines out of context. And it is not relevant to my faith, I got it, I was given a gift that made my life much easier, and gave me a calm I never had before. Despite everything in my life becoming much more problematic in practical terms. And that is what faith is about. Trust, blind trust if you will, but it is not blind. You know enough for you, you do not need others to tell you what you must know. People are individuals, so I must not know as much as you do, to have faith and a personal relationship with God. If I have it. 1500 pages almost, manual to life, people have various struggles, if the book helps some on one issue, they find the faith without reading the rest, thousand ways leading to God, few walk the same path. Some make it complicated for themselves, I try to make it easy. Never sought God or faith, got it, not resisting it. Now seeking more knowledge, but the faith is fortified forever. You are living out Jesus, if you are christian and have some credit to Give Christopher Hitchens. I like it. Good post brother or sister.

I too noticed Hitchens soften after his cancer diagnosis.
Before he would ridicule the idea of prayer. After his diagnosis he had said if Christians wanted to pray for him,he had no problem with that.

I did not know all of that information about his brother. Thank you for sharing that.
I only knew he had a Theist brother.

That part in my post about copyright.
Copyright insures a writers intellectual property remains in tact these days.

The early scribes translating papyrus scrolls written on by early church fathers of course had no such protection attached to their writings and or subsequent translations in future by others charged with translating, or recopying those early writings.

As a consequence there was no guarantee that what some were translating to other languages, or were writing as first draft, would remain as originally penned.

Many different factors would therein lend to abridging the original texts. Politics, lack of full knowledge of the grammar that would apply to a transliteration, etc...

We subsequently learn of lost books so named because, in many a case, the texts were not in keeping with the theme imbedded in what would be the orthodox doctrine of the early church. And for whatever reason.

All materials used to compile the NT canon were written, copied, decades after Jesus. None were written at the day and time of Christ and his ministry.
Reminds me of that game, Telephone.

Passage of time, contemporary politics, etc....Contributed to the loss of lots of information to be gleaned from original scripts that likely could only have helped extend the Exegesis of the faith.

I highly recommend Dr.Ehrmans work. I borrowed the audiobooks, Misquoting Jesus and, The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot, from Hoopla. An app that links to the public library system.

Fascinating research and history of just those two "lost books".

 

[Ahwatukee]

In November 2010, the writer Christopher Hitchens, then dying of cancer, gave this long interview to Jeremy Paxman. Filmed at Hitchens's home in New York, it was a wide-ranging discussion, with Hitchens characteristically unflinching in his exploration of contemporary controversies, as well as his own illness and death.

Christopher Hitchens was in remission from his cancer in 2011. Then he had occasion to enter hospital and there contracted Pneumonia and died. RIP sir.

Like the rich man, I'm sure that Mr. Hitchens now knows the truth first-hand.

 

[Icedaisey]

Like the rich man, I'm sure that Mr. Hitchens now knows the truth first-hand.

Does it bring you satisfaction to be sure of that?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Does it bring you satisfaction to be sure of that?

No need for that assumption. What kind of a Christian would I be if I looked forward to the condemnation of the unsaved?

So let me clarify for you: If Mr. Hitchens died NOT believing in Christ, he remained condemned and now knows the truth of the matter.

Just as scripture states that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, neither do I, but I am merely stating the truth regarding this issue.

 

[Icedaisey]

No need for that assumption. What kind of a Christian would I be if I looked forward to the condemnation of the unsaved?

So let me clarify for you: If Mr. Hitchens died NOT believing in Christ, he remained condemned and now knows the truth of the matter.

Just as scripture states that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, neither do I, but I am merely stating the truth regarding this issue.

No one is in Hell, as we learn in Revelation.

What we do know is at our death and the silver cord is broken, the body returns to the dust from whence it sprang and the soul to God who gave it.

It could be said, if someone envisions Hitch burning in eternal Hell fire because his name was not written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world, it would mean it is not his fault he died without Christ. It is God's will.

And if that hell fire vision is preferred by some as Chris's fate in this moment,then he was right about religion all along.

Because God's word says otherwise.

 

[mindfulzen]

No one is in Hell, as we learn in Revelation.

What we do know is at our death and the silver cord is broken, the body returns to the dust from whence it sprang and the soul to God who gave it.

It could be said, if someone envisions Hitch burning in eternal Hell fire because his name was not written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world, it would mean it is not his fault he died without Christ. It is God's will.

And if that hell fire vision is preferred by some as Chris's fate in this moment,then he was right about religion all along.

Because God's word says otherwise.

Sorry to tell you buddy, hell exists, and the tales are correct. We must do a few small things to not burn in hell. Christopher did not leave with the odds at his side. If he was honest in public till the end. Just the way it is. Now, regarding him and God, of course he might have been sent to perform a task, and we will wine and dine with him later. Perhaps he gets in for his truth and conviction and courage, regardless of faith, because God is such a good sport and enjoyed the battle with Christopher. We just do not know. But let us not forget Christophers own words in this, I do not care if I am wrong and go to hell. Or something like that. So, not looking good at all, if we take him by his words. So, who knows, between him and god then, and this is now. So all we have is legacy. That is not nothing at all.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No one is in Hell, as we learn in Revelation.

What we do know is at our death and the silver cord is broken, the body returns to the dust from whence it sprang and the soul to God who gave it.

No one is yet in the lake of fire. However, Hades is being filled up 24/7, containing all of the departed spirits of the unsaved throughout all of history, who will all be resurrected in a physical body at the great white throne judgment.

"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

It could be said, if someone envisions Hitch burning in eternal Hell fire because his name was not written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world, it would mean it is not his fault he died without Christ. It is God's will.

That is a false statement, because there is none righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and all fall short of God's righteous standards. So, once a person comes to an age of accountability, that person is condemned. The only way to be reconciled to God is through faith in Christ. Therefore, the person whose name that was not written in the book of life before the world began, is still guilty of sin, having not been chosen for eternal life before the world began. Everyone will be without excuse.

By the way, it would be in Hades which is located under the earth, where the spirits of the wicked depart to. Gehenna/lake of fire doesn't come until the great white throne judgment.

And if that hell fire vision is preferred by some as Chris's fate in this moment, then he was right about religion all along.

Because God's word says otherwise.

Everyone who dies without faith, their spirit descends into Hades where they are in torment in flame, just as in the event of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Icedaisey]

No one is yet in the lake of fire. However, Hades is being filled up 24/7, containing all of the departed spirits of the unsaved throughout all of history, who will all be resurrected in a physical body at the great white throne judgment.

"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]



That is a false statement, because there is none righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and all fall short of God's righteous standards. So, once a person comes to an age of accountability, that person is condemned. The only way to be reconciled to God is through faith in Christ. Therefore, the person whose name that was not written in the book of life before the world began, is still guilty of sin, having not been chosen for eternal life before the world began. Everyone will be without excuse.

By the way, it would be in Hades which is located under the earth, where the spirits of the wicked depart to. Gehenna/lake of fire doesn't come until the great white throne judgment.



Everyone who dies without faith, their spirit descends into Hades where they are in torment in flame, just as in the event of the rich man and Lazarus.

"There is none righteous, no not one."
Then your Jesus failed.

I am not Roman Rite, therefore I believe God when he said Chris's body returns to the dust from whence it sprang. And his soul to God who gave it.

Chris didn't believe in God of the Bible. That doesn't mean God didn't believe in Chris. All that exists is of and from God.Who knows all and predestined everything according to his will.

Man sadly created god in their image and likeness when they are sure he hates all the same people they do.

It is they I think who shall be surprised when they die. And answer for every word.

 

[Icedaisey]

By the way, 'Hades", is a Greek abide of the dead. It is also the book of Peter's translation into the Greek of what was originally, Sheol.
Psalm 16:8-11 , Acts 2:25-28 & verse 31)

God is in Sheol, Psalm 138:8, not Hell.


Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave
by W. Edward Bedore, Th.D.




Do Jews Believe in Hell?
What Is the Jewish Belief on Hell?

 

[Ahwatukee]

"There is none righteous, no not one."
Then your Jesus failed.

I am not Roman Rite, therefore I believe God when he said Chris's body returns to the dust from whence it sprang. And his soul to God who gave it.

Sir, then you don't understand the meaning of Resurrection! Remember the empty tomb? Jesus body wasn't there. Why? Because He was back in it. Jesus body didn't have time to decay, which is in fact what the scripture says about Him:

"For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay ."

Chris didn't believe in God of the Bible. That doesn't mean God didn't believe in Chris. All that exists is of and from God. Who knows all and predestined everything according to his will."

"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Man sadly created god in their image and likeness when they are sure he hates all the same people they do.

It is they I think who shall be surprised when they die. And answer for every word.

Yeah, you're one of them who has created God according to your own ideals.

I can see now that you have no understanding of the word of God and are possibly a Troll.

 

[Icedaisey]

Sir, then you don't understand the meaning of Resurrection! Remember the empty tomb? Jesus body wasn't there. Why? Because He was back in it. Jesus body didn't have time to decay, which is in fact what the scripture says about Him:

"For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay ."



"Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”



Yeah, you're one of them who has created God according to your own ideals.

I can see now that you have no understanding of the word of God and are possibly a Troll.

No, I'm not a troll.
I don't see God your way and you turn ugly and call me names.

Thank you for your example.