1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[DavidTree]

yea I don’t even know how it ever became an idea it’s not in scripture anywhere I don’t think I’ve ever on these arguments seem a single suggestion of it

it’s always based on someone saying “ the church is not appoinred to suffer tribulation and wrath “

but all through the Bible Gods people were suffering through tribulations and being persecuted by the world from the prophets tonthe apostles

then looking at world history even from secular or Christian sources , to all the early church slaughtered under Titus , Nero and domitian…they were crucified and lit on fire , fed to beasts in the arena , skinned alive , used as lampposts crudifoed and soaked in oils and lit on fire to light neros carnival games

persecuted so badly that the Roman citizens eventually got tired of seeing them suffer so terribly and 300 years later they took away the Roman law of persecuting Christians

and yet the argument is always God would never let his church suffer his children but look at the only true example we have of his son . It seems a loss to argue it anymore for me exhausting like trying to stamp out a non existent entity

how can you disprove something that’s never there ? Odd conundrum in my estimation

but it always brings out my argumentative side and I don’t like that it’s just so frustrating this one particular subject

The reason you, i , others become unsettled is a pure supernatural spiritual reaction to a lie being promoted as truth from the Word.
This is how the Holy Spirit nudges us, so that we do not become complacent with error. One error leads to another.
Scripture cannot lie - in this we have great confidence in our Lord and His Word.

 

[Noteworthy]

yea I don’t even know how it ever became an idea it’s not in scripture anywhere I don’t think I’ve ever on these arguments seem a single suggestion of it

it’s always based on someone saying “ the church is not appoinred to suffer tribulation and wrath “

but all through the Bible Gods people were suffering through tribulations and being persecuted by the world from the prophets tonthe apostles

then looking at world history even from secular or Christian sources , to all the early church slaughtered under Titus , Nero and domitian…they were crucified and lit on fire , fed to beasts in the arena , skinned alive , used as lampposts crudifoed and soaked in oils and lit on fire to light neros carnival games

persecuted so badly that the Roman citizens eventually got tired of seeing them suffer so terribly and 300 years later they took away the Roman law of persecuting Christians

and yet the argument is always God would never let his church suffer his children but look at the only true example we have of his son . It seems a loss to argue it anymore for me exhausting like trying to stamp out a non existent entity

how can you disprove something that’s never there ? Odd conundrum in my estimation

but it always brings out my argumentative side and I don’t like that it’s just so frustrating this one particular subject

The rapture of believers, before God's tribulation (AKA Daniel's 70th week) is cited in Revelation 3:10

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

That is very clear.

Follow the timeline in Revelation. Chapters 1-3 are about Christ and the church age. Chapter 4:1 begins with "After this..." after what? After the church age. It's plain language. What is the scene? The trumpet voice call from heaven.

 

[Aaron56]

yes brother I have been through this same argument here a few times quoted every plain and clear scripture that doesn’t even leave an inch of room to believe the pre tribulation rapture to stand , but I’ve noticed this subject invites much arguing and in the end no amount of scripture will help because to believe the pre trib you have to be coming from a foreign interpretation someone had taught you beforehand

ot doesn’t exist in scripture in any form from the prophets of the ot

“And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to the apostles

“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;

we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:9-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


All aren’t appointed to tribulation and suffering those who carry the message of Christ are surely going to see it and many through time will and up until the end it’s going to be prevalent

it’s sort of baked in tonthe doctrine of we don’t bother following the gospel we can live lavishly and care free but if we begin to follow after Jesus bring disciples (the church ) we’re going to go through many tribulations and sometimes terrible times and when those times come we’ll be delivered after we pass through death and see the truth of his glory who suffered sommuch standing before us

some will endure tribulation and anguish and others won’t Godnhas his reasons and purposes but certainly there is no promise of mass pre tribulation rapture . I honestly don’t even know how anyone ever came up with that whole concept but it’s just my own thought

To me the scriptures are so clear but I have yet to convince a pre-tribber that their view is not found in the Bible.

If I may add: preaching a doctrine of a pre-trib rapture (invented by the Anglican preacher John Darby in the 1800s by the way) is not an endeavor with no consequences. The doctrine cuts off any attempt to prepare the people of God for the changes that will come upon the world. Because they believe they're just going to "get out of here before it gets bad" they have no ear for teachings that promote resilience and long-suffering and being kept by the Lord's power and growing in maturity towards God. Is it any wonder how this doctrine came from the same circles that teach "problems in your life are a result of something YOU did"? It appeals to the religious mind that does not know the character of God.

 

[DavidTree]

To me the scriptures are so clear but I have yet to convince a pre-tribber that their view is not found in the Bible.

If I may add: preaching a doctrine of a pre-trib rapture (invented by the Anglican preacher John Darby in the 1800s by the way) is not an endeavor with no consequences. The doctrine cuts off any attempt to prepare the people of God for the changes that will come upon the world. Because they believe they're just going to "get out of here before it gets bad" they have no ear for teachings that promote resilience and long-suffering and being kept by the Lord's power and growing in maturity towards God. Is it any wonder how this doctrine came from the same circles that teach "problems in your life are a result of something YOU did"? It appeals to the religious mind that does not know the character of God.

Every lie has consequences. To me, the most damaging is the division it has caused - thus it is robbery against the Lord - against everyone in the Body.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Context. Your citation is about difficulties in the world, not about suffering the tribulation of God. Other translations say "hardships" and others say "tribulations" plural to clarify the sense that is being communicated in your citation. The original Greek used in Acts 14:22 is "thlipseōn". https://biblehub.com/greek/thlipseo_n_2347.htm

Revelation 3:10 "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

Jesus keeps us out of the tribulation time, the 70th week of Daniel.

yeah daniels seventy weeks …. 😏

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what happened did they end sin and being in righteousness or did they kill the messiah who came ?


“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:25-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think possibly daniels vision which is his lament for Israel’s sins there this part

“Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;”

“Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen,( israel ) and went into a far country:

And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. ( the prophets )

Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. ( the latter prophets )

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. ( Jesus the messiah ) But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:33-41‬ ‭KJV‬


You think that has anything to do with daniels seventy weeks and how the Old Testament was based on what they did ? Whether they “ put an end to sin and transgression ect ?

like this final promise of the ckvenant before the messiah arrived

“And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That never happened they killed John and killed jesus , and the. This came to pass as you see in daniels vision

“the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;”

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:1-2, 9-10, 13, 15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


seems like daniels seventy weeks weren’t actually having anything whatsoever to do with it but led to the abomination that left israel desolate and took the kingdom from them and offered it to the world

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To me the scriptures are so clear but I have yet to convince a pre-tribber that their view is not found in the Bible.

If I may add: preaching a doctrine of a pre-trib rapture (invented by the Anglican preacher John Darby in the 1800s by the way) is not an endeavor with no consequences. The doctrine cuts off any attempt to prepare the people of God for the changes that will come upon the world. Because they believe they're just going to "get out of here before it gets bad" they have no ear for teachings that promote resilience and long-suffering and being kept by the Lord's power and growing in maturity towards God. Is it any wonder how this doctrine came from the same circles that teach "problems in your life are a result of something YOU did"? It appeals to the religious mind that does not know the character of God.

yes that’s my same experience but it’s no different from discussing the gospel with a Joseph prince follower the same Brick wall I think it tells us the strength of ideas that get set against what’s there

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Actually, I think he affirms the treaty, at the 3.5 year mark.


Daniel 9:27
New King James Version


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the MIDDLE of the week

I have recently moved from pre to mid trib.

I believe Christians will continue to be subject to man’s / the devil’s wrath.

But you are right. The Bride of Christ will not suffer the wrath of God. There is no point to it.

There is a great deal of hooting from the left-behind camp that "not appointed to wrath"
is proof of a pre-tribulation resurrection day.
But no one teaches that the bride is the object of God's wrath. I wish we could put that idea behind us in these discussions.

 

[DavidTree]

The word is a verb it is to guard over carefully shelter or protect my question though is about what we are guarded sheltered or protected from in terms of all that is to come. This verse is of course an action made by God from what I can understand it is not something to imply that we would suffer the tribulation in fact this verse seems to prove an action taken to shelter or protect us from it. So my question was to get your understanding of the verse

i love Revelation 3: 10-12
10. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11. I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
12. The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Our Lord did not say He was going to rapture/take away/catch away/caught up/remove/displace/secret removal in this passage.

Remember the Rules set forth by our Lord Jesus Christ - 'Do not add or take away from My Words'.....

Revelation 3: 10 -12 says what it says and is easy to understand and receive 'without adding or taking away'.
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing (temptation not tribulation).
I am coming soon.

No pre-trib rapture - no where, but He is coming soon for EVERYONE who are His.

This keep/keeping/kept has already been clearly defined by our Lord.

I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17: 11-12

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:24

Sola Scriptura, where idols are crushed to dust, where religion dies, where men come ALIVE
and where God is Glorified.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The reason you, i , others become unsettled is a pure supernatural spiritual reaction to a lie being promoted as truth from the Word.
This is how the Holy Spirit nudges us, so that we do not become complacent with error. One error leads to another.
Scripture cannot lie - in this we have great confidence in our Lord and His Word.

yes probably but lately I’ve been trying to take responsibility for my own part when this happens

“For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it really bugs me a lot that it’s an in cracks me wall but I also have really deep convictions that I am just another Christian trying to figure it all out so I can have a good message and arguments just destroy the peace in my spirit often I look back on it and just look at how I reacted and what I seemed to have said that creates further arguing and it just crushes my spirit

I don’t think it worth arguing over the timing of the rapture , but I also know how erroneous it is just because I let the scripture fill in the blanks and know how foolish I am when I start trying to interpret things on my own ive learned my lesson on some points still got a lot to learn and exceexise but I have really learned a few little lessons for my own self control and rebuke

I already regret getting into this thread haha not because of you or anyone else but because like I said it brings out the wrong spirit in me so I’m gonna bail out now I appreciate your posts there and agree with all of it hope to discuss other subjects with you at some point

peace brother I need to exit this one before I get frustrated you have it covered anyways and a good solid understanding of the subject a

 

[Pilgrimshope]

i love Revelation 3: 10-12
10. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11. I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
12. The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Our Lord did not say He was going to rapture/take away/catch away/caught up/remove/displace/secret removal in this passage.

Remember the Rules set forth by our Lord Jesus Christ - 'Do not add or take away from My Words'.....

Revelation 3: 10 -12 says what it says and is easy to understand and receive 'without adding or taking away'.
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing (temptation not tribulation).
I am coming soon.

No pre-trib rapture - no where, but He is coming soon for EVERYONE who are His.

This keep/keeping/kept has already been clearly defined by our Lord.

I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17: 11-12

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:24

“Sola Scriptura, where idols are crushed to dust, where religion dies, where men come ALIVE
and where God is Glorified.”

I absolutely adore this statement BROTHER
and would humbly add where the noise dies down and God speaks life into the believers

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The rapture of believers, before God's tribulation (AKA Daniel's 70th week) is cited in Revelation 3:10



That is very clear.

Follow the timeline in Revelation. Chapters 1-3 are about Christ and the church age. Chapter 4:1 begins with "After this..." after what? After the church age. It's plain language. What is the scene? The trumpet voice call from heaven.

Rev 3:10 is clearly addressing one out of seven Churches in Asia Minor. Notice that the Church at Philadelphia are commended
for endurance first. "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial."
So if this is about the resurrection day for the entire body of Christ then it is conditional. We must endure something first.
No evidence for a pre-trib resurrection there.

Rev 2:10 counsels the church in Smyrna not to be afriad of what they are about to suffer.
If we assume one statement to one church should apply to us all then the rest of the statements should apply as well.

"After this" Simply means "after this"
I remember Chuck Missler teaching on this but I don't agree we should make a meal out of "after this".
This might be a Scofield interjection. It has been going around pulpits for years and I have never been comfortable with it.

John was in the spirit and he was shown some important visions.
"After I saw this I saw this" is not some elaborate signal about the end of an age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The word is a verb it is to guard over carefully shelter or protect my question though is about what we are guarded sheltered or protected from in terms of all that is to come. This verse is of course an action made by God from what I can understand it is not something to imply that we would suffer the tribulation in fact this verse seems to prove an action taken to shelter or protect us from it. So my question was to get your understanding of the verse

The person that you are posting to is obviously on my ignore list. If you don't mind me asking, what is the verse in question? Is it Revelation 3:10 by any chance?

 

[Noteworthy]

"After this" Simply means "after this"
I remember Chuck Missler teaching on this but I don't agree we should make a meal out of "after this".
This might be a Scofield interjection. It has been going around pulpits for years and I have never been comfortable with it.

Good mornig! Thank you for your post. Which begs the question; after what? The things subsequent to 4:1 are then spelled out. They occur after the "what". What is that? Is it not after the church age? That is the only possible conclusion.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Good mornig! Thank you for your post. Which begs the question; after what? The things subsequent to 4:1 are then spelled out. They occur after the "what". What is that? Is it not after the church age? That is the only possible conclusion.

The only possible conclusion? Sorry, I disagree. I find that conclusion exceedingly far-fetched.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The rapture of believers, before God's tribulation (AKA Daniel's 70th week) is cited in Revelation 3:10



That is very clear.

Follow the timeline in Revelation. Chapters 1-3 are about Christ and the church age. Chapter 4:1 begins with "After this..." after what? After the church age. It's plain language. What is the scene? The trumpet voice call from heaven.

The rapture of believers, before God's tribulation (AKA Daniel's 70th week) is cited in Revelation 3:10

“That is very clear.

it is ? What do you think daniels vision of seventy weeks is about ? “

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭
does temptation now mean tribulation ?

sounds just like this to me helping us understand when good and righteous people die , thier actually being spared from evil ahead

“The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭57:1‬ ‭

And then considering this

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:12-13‬ ‭

doesn’t it seem like maybe being delivered from the temptations of earth might be when they die like every man is appointed to ?

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that is all are appointed to die except for those who are still alive when Christ returns to gather his people the church

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

can you see that not only is it after the tribulation but also after the resurrection of the dead ? is the rapture after the dead rise ?

little more about those remaining alive that final day

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:7-9, 15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,

neither his image,

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sire if it’s that clear referencing that verse and saying daniels 60 weeks proves the rapture unless I just don’t understand the code you have cracked

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Near to the beginning of John's message to the 7 churches he writes this:

Rev 1:9 " I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

 

[PennEd]

There is a great deal of hooting from the left-behind camp that "not appointed to wrath"
is proof of a pre-tribulation resurrection day.
But no one teaches that the bride is the object of God's wrath. I wish we could put that idea behind us in these discussions.

I think the removal of God’s people before His wrath is Biblical.

We think of prophecy as prediction and fulfillment. And some prophecy is that. But perhaps a more significant method of prophecy is in patterns.

Patterns as prophecy is all throughout the Bible. One of the most stark is Genesis 22, and the modeling or pattern of Abraham and Isaac, as a type of prophecy of Christ.

So if we look at the patterns of God’s wrath on the ungodly, and the removal of the righteous first, we see it all over the OT.

Enoch removed (or raptured) before judgement. Noah and family preserved through judgement.

Lot and his daughters removed and protected before and through judgement. Interesting, that God’s wrath couldn’t even start UNTIL they were removed.

Rahab preserved and saved through judgement.

So I think, obviously not certain, that there will be those removed before the GT. Those who are preserved (1/3 Jews?) through the GT.

Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Near to the beginning of John's message to the 7 churches he writes this:

Rev 1:9 " I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

jesus was preparing them and us to endure through it all

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:4-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-
if the gospel is being preached the church is there

He then shifts to Jerusalem’s immediate future regarding 67 ad and the culmination of daniels vision of the desolation and destruction of Jerusalem

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that tribulation wasn’t the end

“And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;

insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they asked him two questions and he answered both the signs of the end and also the songs of Jerusalem’s desolation when the temple and city was destroyed by Rome in ad 67 and has never been erected again without a temple Israel’s covenant lays desolate

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think the removal of God’s people before His wrath is Biblical.

We think of prophecy as prediction and fulfillment. And some prophecy is that. But perhaps a more significant method of prophecy is in patterns.

Patterns as prophecy is all throughout the Bible. One of the most stark is Genesis 22, and the modeling or pattern of Abraham and Isaac, as a type of prophecy of Christ.

So if we look at the patterns of God’s wrath on the ungodly, and the removal of the righteous first, we see it all over the OT.

Enoch removed (or raptured) before judgement. Noah and family preserved through judgement.

Lot and his daughters removed and protected before and through judgement. Interesting, that God’s wrath couldn’t even start UNTIL they were removed.

Rahab preserved and saved through judgement.

So I think, obviously not certain, that there will be those removed before the GT. Those who are preserved (1/3 Jews?) through the GT.

Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people.

since it is biblical wouldnt there be something explaining it in the Bible without us having to explain it’s biblical ?

if we’re naming Gods wrath to this I agree

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15‬ ‭


the way to be “raptured” from that wrath is here and will be preached until the last day of earth

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we do that now by faith we don’t have to do it along side the dead who rejected it and are in danger without remission of ending up in his actual wrath according to thier own works without remission we want to be in the group to at already passed from the second death so we can be those who were sealed and saved and made alive for the kingdom

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[DavidTree]

I think the removal of God’s people before His wrath is Biblical.

We think of prophecy as prediction and fulfillment. And some prophecy is that. But perhaps a more significant method of prophecy is in patterns.

Patterns as prophecy is all throughout the Bible. One of the most stark is Genesis 22, and the modeling or pattern of Abraham and Isaac, as a type of prophecy of Christ.

So if we look at the patterns of God’s wrath on the ungodly, and the removal of the righteous first, we see it all over the OT.

Enoch removed (or raptured) before judgement. Noah and family preserved through judgement.

Lot and his daughters removed and protected before and through judgement. Interesting, that God’s wrath couldn’t even start UNTIL they were removed.

Rahab preserved and saved through judgement.

So I think, obviously not certain, that there will be those removed before the GT. Those who are preserved (1/3 Jews?) through the GT.

Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people.

You pointed out some important OT truths - God' people are not appointed to His Wrath.
This is clearly repeated in the NT writings.

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1: 10

You said: "Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people."

It is first contentious with our Lord to promote error, most especially when it 'adds to and takes away from His Words'

If this were not so He would of never said:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22: 18-19

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you. Deuteronomy 4: 1-2

This is a irrevocable commandment and pattern set forth by our Lord since the very beginning in the Garden.

The first attack by satan was against His Word. He succeeded and brought the entire creation down with him.
Thankfully TRUTH prevailed - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word is God. John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and we beheld His Glory..........full of Grace and Truth. John 1:14

As long as the Holy Spirit is here with us, in us, to guide us into all Truth, there will be contentions.
The Spirit of Truth does not shy away from the spirit of error - there will always be these contentions when they arise.
There are serious negative outcomes from the error of pre-trib that out Lord wants us to avoid and He clearly showed this to us in His Word.
His addressing the seven churches of Revelation are most evident of these things and the writings of the Apostles.