A forgotten point about the four gospels

[Pilgrimshope]

Sometimes we forget that the gospels were written not before the church began , but when the church was in full swing and the Holy Ghost was still exalted among believers .


The point is when we try to make the four gospels something that isn’t the church doctrine were eliminating the foundations of church doctrine. The gospels were written as the apostles and early church began to age and in order to carry out the commission they simply recorded in scripture the things Jesus had taught them , to go teach the world about him and of him.

there seems to always be a reason we don’t want to accept the four gospels and instead we want to try to learn from the epistles which is a great thing but the epistles are only companions to help us understand the gospel

Paul for instance what did he teach the Ephesians ? Is it his Ephesians letter that was thier doctrine ? Or did Paul spend two years in person preaching and teaching them the gospel and later wrote a single epistle correcting and exhorting and comforting them ?

the epistles are just a glimpse into what Paul was teaching most of his writings are to churches he helped establish in person with men like Luke and barnabus , Apollos and Priscilla and aquilla, Timothy and mark

Paul sent letters from far away places he was establishing other cities in the gospel and hearing thkngs and sending letters to help keep them following the gospel. His epistles were never the source of doctrine for anyone they were companions and additions to the gospels. To help us remain and be comforted and edified further

if we could hear Paul’s in Morrison message it would fully include the gospels as the foundation and irrevocable word of Christ.

it’s not a good idea to remove Jesus words and replace them with Paul’s epistles we don’t even have a clear image in those few short and specifically designed letters sent to correct , rebuke and encourage the church they are wonderful but are companions to the gospel not the replacements

consider when people are insisting on Paul’s letters being everything , what they really are saying about Jesus

 

[JaumeJ]

I read Paul yet something has always gnawed at my conciousness about hime. I do not fine him foretold in the Word.

As for his experiences in his conversion I only read in wriritings credited to him. As for confusion in teaching, I never see anything so from Jesus Yeshua, but I do see a lot of argument from people whoquote Paul only. Whet bothers me should not be important to anyone but me, but I thought to share this.

PS.. I say I do not see confusion n spawned by out Savior, but people do sometimes overlook what He has taught in order to further personal doctriend.. I though I should qualify that.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I read Paul yet something has always gnawed at my conciousness about hime. I do not fine him foretold in the Word.

As for his experiences in his conversion I only read in wriritings credited to him. As for confusion in teaching, I never see anything so from Jesus Yeshua, but I do see a lot of argument from people whoquote Paul only. Whet bothers me should not be important to anyone but me, but I thought to share this.

PS.. I say I do not see confusion n spawned by out Savior, but people do sometimes overlook what He has taught in order to further personal doctriend.. I though I should qualify that.

the issue isn’t Paul he’s a chosen apostle and does appear in ot prophecy and also the figure of the twelve tribes of Israel supports his latter choosing to replace Judas

the issue is what people do with his letters, replacing the gospel with one of Jesus servants and witnesses an apostle of Jesus. And because he writes such long beautiful words they are easy to cherry pick single verses and then explain away the truth

the issue is this notice Peter had fully accepted Paul as a beloved brother and says his letters come from the wisdom of God but there’s a warning regarding those who distort his epistles into what they aren’t

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;

in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

had Paul not been one of them Peter would have said so , Peter is actually the chief apostle named by Christ so his full approval of Paul just confirms Jesus choice of Paul to lead the gentile conversions being he was a Roman citizen fluent in Greek language

the issue is when the “ paulians” try to make Christians into those who reject the truth by defining terms like grave above the rest And ignoring the truth that saves

If you are looking from the four gospels oaul is immensely helpful to understand the new covenant. As is Peter and especially John. Like the tribes were not complete at first and some were cut out and others later grafted in Judas was cut out and another was later grafted in to the twelve.

Paul really became important because of his access to the gentile world that the others didn’t have among them twelve apostles only Paul had Roman citizenship and gentile education. The others were second class citizens being non Roman citizens. So like was equipped to lead the gentile conversion which the aoostles all Came together and agreed to

I think the issue is when we try to eliminate the others because Paul was chosen to carry the same exact torch in the lead of everyone as the aoostles finished thier conmission to first cover all Israel Paul also preached first to Jews and then Gentiles but the important part is everything they all said is for everyone who believes Paul Peter James John and above all the four gospels which are how the epistels even make any sense

Paul was fully approved but many will exalt Paul as if he is Jesus and can save them the issue in my own feeble head will always be replacing Jesus and the gospel with any doctrine called the gospel

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So Paul’s doctrine comes in like this

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Paul comes along he’s speaking after this is established so he sounds like this speaking to people who believe the already established doctrine of Christ there offering freedom from sins dominion sompauls value is witnessing this truth

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s talking to folks who hasn’t rejected the gospel of the kingdom but had began to follow and keep Jesus words so he’s actually teaching directly from the gospel helping us grow into and understand it better

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Or for instance baptism it’s esrablisjed in the gospel baptism for remission of sins

Paul opens up the understanding of what it means to us and how it clnnects to the death and resurrection of Christ

how can we live in sin anymore he asks ?

“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:2-4, 6-7, 9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I hear the twisters that are so popular in the world explain “ Jesus only took away the punishment for sin not the power of sin over us “ hats when the distortion begins oaulsnactually confirming what Jesus said about following him into freedom from serving sin , not saying “now you can sin all you want your saved “

he actually Makes it plain if we continue serving sin we’re going to belong to it rather than God and have it’s reward rather than Christs

 

[Blik]

I read Paul yet something has always gnawed at my conciousness about hime. I do not fine him foretold in the Word.

As for his experiences in his conversion I only read in wriritings credited to him. As for confusion in teaching, I never see anything so from Jesus Yeshua, but I do see a lot of argument from people whoquote Paul only. Whet bothers me should not be important to anyone but me, but I thought to share this.

PS.. I say I do not see confusion n spawned by out Savior, but people do sometimes overlook what He has taught in order to further personal doctriend.. I though I should qualify that.

What I think we need to note about Paul was that he was one of the 12 apostles. These 12 trained the men of the church of the apostle age, the true church as the Lord gave it instructions. This church stood and grew in power even though it was an illegal church in the eyes of the world. It wasn't until Constantine made himself leader of the church, a man of the world, that the church stayed close to Christ. It marked the end f he church of the apostles.

Paul did not know Christ in the flesh as we are told the other apostles did, but we are told Paul was personally taught by Christ those three years in Arabia. Scripture also states that Paul was an apostle, not a disciple, and all apostles had to be personally taught by Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What I think we need to note about Paul was that he was one of the 12 apostles. These 12 trained the men of the church of the apostle age, the true church as the Lord gave it instructions. This church stood and grew in power even though it was an illegal church in the eyes of the world. It wasn't until Constantine made himself leader of the church, a man of the world, that the church stayed close to Christ. It marked the end f he church of the apostles.

Paul did not know Christ in the flesh as we are told the other apostles did, but we are told Paul was personally taught by Christ those three years in Arabia. Scripture also states that Paul was an apostle, not a disciple, and all apostles had to be personally taught by Christ.

“For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:1-11, 14-21‬ ‭KJV‬

I think if Paul’s letters are considered in larger chunks the confusion goes away

 

[Dino246]

While the four gospels were written during the infancy of the church, and not before it, they are not presented as doctrinal statements but rather as "histories" of what happened before, during, and shortly after Jesus' life on earth. Much of Jesus' teaching is to Jews in the context of the OT law. Gentile Christians are not and never were under the law. We need to examine the gospels to determine which parts are teaching for the Church and which parts are narrative of and for that particular context.

 

[Icedaisey]

There are more than four gospels.
Irenaeus is responsible for the other gospels being denied. Irenaeus believed there could only be four gospels because he believed they had to comport with God's creating 4 main factors in establishing creation. Four cardinal directions, four pillars holding up the vault of heaven, etc....

That is just another factor in man's interfering with God's words to the world, and by their electing to put their authority into practice over God's.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

While the four gospels were written during the infancy of the church, and not before it, they are not presented as doctrinal statements but rather as "histories" of what happened before, during, and shortly after Jesus' life on earth. Much of Jesus' teaching is to Jews in the context of the OT law. Gentile Christians are not and never were under the law. We need to examine the gospels to determine which parts are teaching for the Church and which parts are narrative of and for that particular context.

yes I’m aware there are a lot of reasons to disbelieve the gospels and many logics about their just historical records ect couldn’t the same logic be used to eliminate all scripture ? Non believers use that argument

did you know Luke was a partner in Paul’s ministry who wrote the gospel of Luke for gentile audiences ? Which begins like this to sort of demolish the logic you are using

“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying this is mere record of history and not doctrine ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like more than a historical record that all leads to Paul but hey is this stuff from Paul allowed or also historical record ?

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭

Gods spoken word from the mouth of Jesus Christ will never change or disappear

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they can only be rejected by many “ theories and logical arguments “ but , that’s not faith this is

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

That’s why we have four full accounts of what he preached in our homes across the globe still today it’s meant for us to accept and believe reconsider brother it’s never too late to take a step of faith

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There are more than four gospels.
Irenaeus is responsible for the other gospels being denied. Irenaeus believed there could only be four gospels because he believed they had to comport with God's creating 4 main factors in establishing creation. Four cardinal directions, four pillars holding up the vault of heaven, etc....

That is just another factor in man's interfering with God's words to the world, and by their electing to put their authority into practice over God's.

aren’t the four we have all accounts of the same gospel ? Three eye witnesses and one revelator ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

While the four gospels were written during the infancy of the church, and not before it, they are not presented as doctrinal statements but rather as "histories" of what happened before, during, and shortly after Jesus' life on earth. Much of Jesus' teaching is to Jews in the context of the OT law. Gentile Christians are not and never were under the law. We need to examine the gospels to determine which parts are teaching for the Church and which parts are narrative of and for that particular context.

Yes another point you make is solved here

they were all under the law until Jesus died to remit it at that point his word became the covenant here’s the point in scripture

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a testament is like a living will , while the person is alive the Will has no effect , it’s written and sealed until their death when they die their words are final no one can change them anymore .

the example of Moses is drawn from this event

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Christ came the priests were still in authority and Moses word still held the covenant. Whe. Christ died and she’s the blood of the eternal
Covenant his eternal words went into effect

forst the word is spoken and then after the blood is shed Moses gave us the pattern and Christ fulfilled it. Both word and blood. His death didn’t erase his words , it fulfilled Moses words

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Icedaisey]

aren’t the four we have all accounts of the same gospel ? Three eye witnesses and one revelator ?

No, there are more. Irenaeus outlines why he insisted on four and only four gospels in his 5 volume work that still exists today: "Against The Heresies".

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There are more than four gospels.
Irenaeus is responsible for the other gospels being denied. Irenaeus believed there could only be four gospels because he believed they had to comport with God's creating 4 main factors in establishing creation. Four cardinal directions, four pillars holding up the vault of heaven, etc....

That is just another factor in man's interfering with God's words to the world, and by their electing to put their authority into practice over God's.

I find early Christian writings like you are pointing to very helpful also Barnabus , Paul, Peter all have early writings as well as other gospel accounts that weren’t allowed into the cannon

I think we can read them and see that much of it is inspired by the holy soirit because it doesn’t contradict the thkngs in the Bible or only supports everything written

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, there are more. Irenaeus outlines why he insisted on four and only four gospels in his 5 volume work that still exists today: "Against The Heresies".

yes I know I agree , I was just saying all
Of them the ones we have in scripture and the others are all accounting the one gospel .

 

[Icedaisey]

I find early Christian writings like you are pointing to very helpful also Barnabus , Paul, Peter all have early writings as well as other gospel accounts that weren’t allowed into the cannon

I think we can read them and see that much of it is inspired by the holy soirit because it doesn’t contradict the thkngs in the Bible or only supports everything written

I use to accept the Bible as is. I was a kid raised in the faith and believed my parents and what they said of the Bible.
Later, when I started to investigate on my own because there were so many discrepancies that didn't make sense, or questions about passages that started out and then ended with the last verse in the chapter but didn't continue the narrative, and that was confusing. I then began to look for why this was.

I think if we limit ourselves to what councils of men, for their personal and political reasons, decided would be the authorized, by their authority, words of God, the canon, that we'll miss out on the full inspired messages God intended for the world to receive.

I think also that is why various scribes throughout the canonization process, the translation, the copying process, would enter in enticements that would lead the seeker, the astute reader, to do just that.
Don't believe every spirit, but test them to see if they are of God. Seek and ye shall find. Seek the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me.

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you. " Gospel of Thomas

The Epistle of Barnabas was considered "inspired" or canonical for first three centuries. It is said that later on Ascetic bishops had it removed from the canon of scripture because they felt it criticized their practices.

Lost Scriptures: Books That Did Not Make it into the New Testament ~ Bart Ehrman

 

[Icedaisey]

yes I know I agree , I was just saying all
Of them the ones we have in scripture and the others are all accounting the one gospel .

Sure. However, Jesus is the Gospel. The Good News. And there are a great many writings that point to that. Far more than the Canon's 4.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I use to accept the Bible as is. I was a kid raised in the faith and believed my parents and what they said of the Bible.
Later, when I started to investigate on my own because there were so many discrepancies that didn't make sense, or questions about passages that started out and then ended with the last verse in the chapter but didn't continue the narrative, and that was confusing. I then began to look for why this was.

I think if we limit ourselves to what councils of men, for their personal and political reasons, decided would be the authorized, by their authority, words of God, the canon, that we'll miss out on the full inspired messages God intended for the world to receive.

I think also that is why various scribes throughout the canonization process, the translation, the copying process, would enter in enticements that would lead the seeker, the astute reader, to do just that.
Don't believe every spirit, but test them to see if they are of God. Seek and ye shall find. Seek the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me.

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you. " Gospel of Thomas

The Epistle of Barnabas was considered "inspired" or canonical for first three centuries. It is said that later on Ascetic bishops had it removed from the canon of scripture because they felt it criticized their practices.

Lost Scriptures: Books That Did Not Make it into the New Testament ~ Bart Ehrman

yes I completely agree , there are probably some counterfeits also I would think but mostly I find the same spirit in those thkngs as the ones included in the Bible the Bible is plenty enough but investigating those others left out only builds a stronger belief and faith in the Bible me and it’s infallible source

really they are just people witnessing things they saw and heard from Jesus or from the apostles and Rome that’s what the commission is for us all.

I also had sort of the same experience I used to be one of those who said “ I just can’t understand it or I just am too busy to read the Bible “ so I would sit in a church pew and listen as the Katie quoted 3 verses and then talked in circles about funny life events and told jokes and made rounded off points about what those few scriptures declared

there was always it seemed some hidden message. Later I started wondering what was there because of the same contradictions I noticed from pastor to pastor
one preached “ grace grace “ another preached “ repent repent “ another made it sound like I was surely lost , another I could never lose myself no matter what I did

it was confusing for certain. I heard things like “ Jesus came so you don’t need to repent no one can it’s impossible we have grave though so we’re saved “

but the scripture seems to have a better more complete message that they haven’t heard about somehow eventually I started seeing why it’s like that from both Paul and Peter

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so it just hit me why Jesus was so insistent about remaining in his gospel
Of the kingdom the word he preached is the truth and reason he came

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and that seems to me to be the truth that many heresies and false ideas have began long ago even in those days are working to pull us from and turn us against but it always Hearken a me back to the beginning example of adam

he was created in Gods grave and Will was given as a gift the earth and all in it freedom and fellowship with God in Eden

then God told him a commandment that would keep his life safe and his estate secure and then Satan came along after he heard the word of life and offered a lie that distorted thier minds

and so Is the gospel a new beginning that Satan is working to get out of our hearts and mknds any way he can

“When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sure. However, Jesus is the Gospel. The Good News. And there are a great many writings that point to that. Far more than the Canon's 4.

lol yes totally agreed from the word preached to the blood shed to the glory of his throne it’s Jesus Jesus Jesus but the gospel of the kingdom is our path to him

 

[Icedaisey]

lol yes totally agreed from the word preached to the blood shed to the glory of his throne it’s Jesus Jesus Jesus but the gospel of the kingdom is our path to him

God calls whom he will to his grace.

Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.