A forgotten point about the four gospels

[John146]

Jesus has already preached about his death and resurrection

“Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even Isaiah had preached it it wasn’t new knowledge the gospel ofn the kingdom is new however

the blood doesn’t erase the need for believing the word of life it allows us to come near and hear it unlike they could in the last because they had no remission of sins

Christs death and resurrection is certainly of the gospel and for us after it’s where we start , but the idea that there’s not a word of God calling us to repentance and obedience is erroneous and a concoction of the new age grace alone preachers who actually though they tout Paul’s name reject his doctrine also

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s from the same guy they twist into a grace alone nothing else applies but the cross doctrine he never taught that but they do by twisting and cherry picking his epistles and rejecting the rest

God hid His death on the cross from them. It was a mystery until after it took place.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. That’s our gospel!
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Perhaps because you're trying to refute my comments instead of trying to understand them.


I'm well aware of that, and have debated the point with legalists many times.


Let's not confuse distinct uses of the term, "gospel"; there are the gospels (records) of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; this is the term as you use it above. Then there is THE gospel (message) which is the core truth about God, humanity, sin, Jesus, faith, and eternal life.


You seem to think that I'm trying to change something; I'm not. I'm responding to your words from the opening post:

"The point is when we try to make the four gospels something that isn’t the church doctrine were eliminating the foundations of church doctrine. "

The four gospels, as records, are "foundational" though are themselves built on the Old Testament. They are historical records as I stated before. There is indeed doctrine for the Church recorded in them, but to treat the entirety of the gospels as doctrinal is likely to lead people back to the Law, because the events they record occurred in the context of the OT Law. Jesus Himself stated in reference to the Pharisees, "Do what they tell you." Are we as Christians to do what the Pharisees tell us? No. As I said before, we need to determine what is doctrinal and what isn't. Narrative passages usually aren't.

More from your opening post: "there seems to always be a reason we don’t want to accept the four gospels and instead we want to try to learn from the epistles which is a great thing but the epistles are only companions to help us understand the gospel "
Here you are employing the logical fallacy of equivocation again, using the term "gospel" in two distinct senses while implying that it is the same sense. You are also assuming ignorance or lack of understanding on the part of others.

By the way, who (Christians, that is) doesn't want to accept the gospels? I have met no such person.


Again, the tone of your questions implies wrongdoing on my part. Do you get that you come across as rather self-righteous?

In what way(s) do these "we" people not believe Jesus' word?

I am not going to answer things you have distorted sorry it’s obvious you have rejected my points but your free to do that , I’ve learned about trying to defend distortions of my words it isn’t my place so
I apologize

 

[John146]

see my last post to you

Paul laid the foundation, the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God hid His death on the cross from them. It was a mystery until after it took place.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. That’s our gospel!
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

yea…. If you want to reject the things Jesus taught thats something your free to do

The gospel isn’t just Jesus dying for you and rising from the dead that’s something people make it into to avoid the truth what would happen if someone believes the gospel Jesus preached and sent out to the world ?

 

[Dino246]

I am not going to answer things you have distorted sorry it’s obvious you have rejected my points but your free to do that , I’ve learned about trying to defend distortions of my words it isn’t my place so
I apologize

Accusations without evidence? Throwing a last barb or two before you exit the conversation?

From which of the four gospels did you learn such behaviour?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Paul laid the foundation, the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Yep it’s where to start already said that part but the idea it ends there is erroneous is my point didn’t Paul wrote a lot of epistles ? So ueah I agree no one can change the foundation of Christ that’s sort of my point many people cherry pick and it’s for the purpose of eliminating Jesus Christ’s everlasting words that promise eternal
Life

I mean look how hard a couple of you are working to argue and throw this off track and your poor is this isn’t for you because the one who said it gave his life to wash away our sins

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who would want to reject his word ? With that promise and I would be willing to say Jesus didn’t get it Paul did ?

Didn’t Paul teach this thing too ? Or should we say Jesus does and rose so it doesn’t apply ?

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So you shouldn’t think I don’t believe Jesus does and rose I learned that when I was about six or seven . That’s pretty much where every believer begins and we never stop believing it .

I don’t think we should take it to mean this cancels out the word of Gkd and his authority however that’s never going to be correct.

it’s like being in Moses camp and telling people to forget the law , they are going to sacrifice an animal to cover our sins

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Accusations without evidence? Throwing a last barb or two before you exit the conversation?

From which of the four gospels did you learn such behaviour?

can you move on ? I am not willing to argue me I’ve already made some plain points you just look for sentences you can distort I’m not going there

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[

Paul laid the foundation, the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

at what point does Paul or any apostle make the point to not accept and believe the gospel Jesus preached ?

 

[John146]

yea…. If you want to reject the things Jesus taught thats something your free to do

The gospel isn’t just Jesus dying for you and rising from the dead that’s something people make it into to avoid the truth what would happen if someone believes the gospel Jesus preached and sent out to the world ?

The gospel of Jesus Christ in its most simplistic form. How Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Perhaps because you're trying to refute my comments instead of trying to understand them.


I'm well aware of that, and have debated the point with legalists many times.


Let's not confuse distinct uses of the term, "gospel"; there are the gospels (records) of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; this is the term as you use it above. Then there is THE gospel (message) which is the core truth about God, humanity, sin, Jesus, faith, and eternal life.


You seem to think that I'm trying to change something; I'm not. I'm responding to your words from the opening post:

"The point is when we try to make the four gospels something that isn’t the church doctrine were eliminating the foundations of church doctrine. "

The four gospels, as records, are "foundational" though are themselves built on the Old Testament. They are historical records as I stated before. There is indeed doctrine for the Church recorded in them, but to treat the entirety of the gospels as doctrinal is likely to lead people back to the Law, because the events they record occurred in the context of the OT Law. Jesus Himself stated in reference to the Pharisees, "Do what they tell you." Are we as Christians to do what the Pharisees tell us? No. As I said before, we need to determine what is doctrinal and what isn't. Narrative passages usually aren't.

More from your opening post: "there seems to always be a reason we don’t want to accept the four gospels and instead we want to try to learn from the epistles which is a great thing but the epistles are only companions to help us understand the gospel "
Here you are employing the logical fallacy of equivocation again, using the term "gospel" in two distinct senses while implying that it is the same sense. You are also assuming ignorance or lack of understanding on the part of others.

By the way, who (Christians, that is) doesn't want to accept the gospels? I have met no such person.


Again, the tone of your questions implies wrongdoing on my part. Do you get that you come across as rather self-righteous?

In what way(s) do these "we" people not believe Jesus' word?

every time I see your comments in any thread you are there sowing an argument.

you never consider what others have said , you do what you are here you cherry pick sentences and make outlandish conclusions of what they are saying it’s not a fruitful endevour

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The gospel of Jesus Christ in its most simplistic form. How Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose

yeah so Jesus didn’t preach the gospel because you quoted a few lines from Pauls epistle regarding his death and resurrection ?

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
am I understanding your position ? Jesus wasn’t the one anointed to preach the gospel ?

“And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:17-19, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not true because you are quoting a section of Paul’s epistle that’s addressing the importance of his death and resurrection ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yeah so Jesus didn’t preach the gospel because you quoted a few lines from Pauls epistle regarding his death and resurrection ?

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
am I understanding your position ? Jesus wasn’t the one anointed to preach the gospel ?

“And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:17-19, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not true because you are quoting a section of Paul’s epistle that’s addressing the importance of his death and resurrection ?

and this isn’t correct either probably ?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

certainly this can’t be true since it all changed with Paul right ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬

and certainly this can’t apply because he does and rose ?

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭

 

[Nehemiah6]

it’s not a good idea to remove Jesus words and replace them with Paul’s epistles

The Gospels are the foundation. The Acts of the Apostles is the connecting link. The epistles are the edifice built on that foundation. Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ. Also, the Gospels do not give us everything that Christ did, as John tells us in his Gospel. But what is recorded is more than enough.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

and this isn’t correct either probably ?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

certainly this can’t be true since it all changed with Paul right ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬

and certainly this can’t apply because he does and rose ?

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭

Paul certainly wasn’t preaching the gospel of the kingdom right ?

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬

well he wouldn’t teach that tonthe church right ?

“And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And certainly he wasn’t addressing it in his epistles

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:5-6‬ ‭
has nothing to do with the church though

“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:13-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬
let the lord have preeminence because we are being called into his kingdom but lol his kingdom gets into us here

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

rejecting the gospel of the kingdom isn’t the way in but yes Jesus died for us I don’t think it eliminates everything else I think it’s the blood shed ofnthe covenant words he spoke beforehand

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when he died it made the gospel the covenant his words I mean that’s our covenant paid for by his blood

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Gospels are the foundation. The Acts of the Apostles is the connecting link. The epistles are the edifice built on that foundation. Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ. Also, the Gospels do not give us everything that Christ did, as John tells us in his Gospel. But what is recorded is more than enough.

I’m not arguing against the epistles , others argue against the gospels

my only point is that the epistles don’t erase or change anything Jesus taught they are like companions that help us better understand the gospel.

 

[John146]

yeah so Jesus didn’t preach the gospel because you quoted a few lines from Pauls epistle regarding his death and resurrection ?

The gospel of the kingdom was meant for Israel. It was good news that their Messiah was at hand ready to restore the kingdom of Israel. The gospel of the grace of God was preached by Paul.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Gospels are the foundation. The Acts of the Apostles is the connecting link. The epistles are the edifice built on that foundation. Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ. Also, the Gospels do not give us everything that Christ did, as John tells us in his Gospel. But what is recorded is more than enough.

the epistles aren’t the apostles actual doctrine just glimpses into it ? Paul did this for three years so consider this point please brother

“And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:20-21, 25, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now that’s his ministry tonthe Ephesians church but all we have is a letter sent back to them when he hears they were struggling in a few areas

do you suppose there hears of Paul’s doctrine warning and preaching the kingdom is for into the Ephesians letter ? Or are we missing a lot of what Paul actually taught them ?

the epistles are incomplete the gospel isn’t

 

[Dino246]

You said this...

can you move on ? I am not willing to argue me I’ve already made some plain points you just look for sentences you can distort I’m not going there

And afterwards, you said this...

every time I see your comments in any thread you are there sowing an argument.

you never consider what others have said , you do what you are here you cherry pick sentences and make outlandish conclusions of what they are saying it’s not a fruitful endevour

So if you want to move on, fine, but don't be hypocritical about it by throwing shade as you retreat. This is the second time you've done so. You don't want to address the points I've made, you don't want to identify where you think I've distorted your words, and you don't want to exit the conversation gracefully?

Whatever.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The gospel of the kingdom was meant for Israel. It was good news that their Messiah was at hand ready to restore the kingdom of Israel. The gospel of the grace of God was preached by Paul.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Yes another way to avoid it but you never did answer why Paul was preaching it to the church you just insisted it was for Israel only

“The gospel of the kingdom was meant for Israel.”

True but what about this

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you know how that nation is made ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

And do you know one of the witnesses chosen to witness the gospel of the kingdom ?

Paul is one

“And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:25‬ ‭

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭

what else you got ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You said this...



And afterwards, you said this...



So if you want to move on, fine, but don't be hypocritical about it by throwing shade as you retreat. This is the second time you've done so. You don't want to address the points I've made, you don't want to identify where you think I've distorted your words, and you don't want to exit the conversation gracefully?

Whatever.

yep I do want to move on , I had though that you replied again my bad on that one