Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

[ResidentAlien]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

 

[Gideon300]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

I knew someone who liked to say things like "keep the faith!" He was not Christian. Many people have a pseudo faith, just mental agreement with facts. Someone interviewed people on the street, asking if they believed the Bible. Quite a lot said yes. Then they were asked if they tithed. Most said no, with numbers of excuses. So they have no works to go with their faith.

People change when they are born again. We get a new nature. I went from never reading the Bible to becoming almost obsessed, from despising church to going to as many meetings as I could, from being afraid of real Christians to longing to meet them.

I met many who were Christian in name only. They had the outward show, but no inner reality. It took me a long time to see this. I could not imagine why anyone would want to go to church unless they were saved. People have all kinds of motivations apart from the right one.

In summary, works are the evidence that faith is real. We don't work to get faith or to be saved in the first place. But real faith will result in works. It is progressive. We are born again like new born babies, knowing nothing. Some grow quickly and mature early in their Christian lives. Others are slow to learn and change. They need to be encouraged, maybe with a little prod here and there. God's word can be painful at times. No doubt some of James' church members were most uncomfortable.

Lord Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He will get us to where He wants us to be. How long that takes and what we go through is partly our responsibility. We cannot speed up the process, but we can sure slow it down.

 

[John146]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

Consider the audience...that’s where you should start.

 

[phil36]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

I think the point of James is real simple.... True saving faith will produce fruit, good works.

James gives examples throughout Chapter 2.

Here is one: James 2:14-17

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

And then he says:

"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless" (v20). This verse alone buts and end to the "free grace" movement. Where you can accept Christ and carry on living without change..the carnal christian (no such thing).

But James just strengthens the hope of eternal security for the believer. Because even these good deeds, are worked in us -

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Philippians 2:12-13.


And God will see his work to completion:

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. - 1 Corinthians 1:7-9.


Simply put, Those in Christ will persevere to the end. The life of faith will produce good deeds, and God will preserve his children. None will be lost.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I realized after it was too late to change it, but I should've called this thread "Salvation by faith only: What do you do with James 2?" However, faith only and eternal security often go hand-in-hand so it's not too far off.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I knew someone who liked to say things like "keep the faith!" He was not Christian. Many people have a pseudo faith, just mental agreement with facts. Someone interviewed people on the street, asking if they believed the Bible. Quite a lot said yes. Then they were asked if they tithed. Most said no, with numbers of excuses. So they have no works to go with their faith.

People change when they are born again. We get a new nature. I went from never reading the Bible to becoming almost obsessed, from despising church to going to as many meetings as I could, from being afraid of real Christians to longing to meet them.

I met many who were Christian in name only. They had the outward show, but no inner reality. It took me a long time to see this. I could not imagine why anyone would want to go to church unless they were saved. People have all kinds of motivations apart from the right one.

In summary, works are the evidence that faith is real. We don't work to get faith or to be saved in the first place. But real faith will result in works. It is progressive. We are born again like new born babies, knowing nothing. Some grow quickly and mature early in their Christian lives. Others are slow to learn and change. They need to be encouraged, maybe with a little prod here and there. God's word can be painful at times. No doubt some of James' church members were most uncomfortable.

Lord Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He will get us to where He wants us to be. How long that takes and what we go through is partly our responsibility. We cannot speed up the process, but we can sure slow it down.

Nice explanation, but what do you do with James 2:14, specifically? What's your interpretation? Doesn't it say faith without works cannot save?

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

 

[ResidentAlien]

I think the point of James is real simple.... True saving faith will produce fruit, good works.

James gives examples throughout Chapter 2.

Here is one: James 2:14-17

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

And then he says:

"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless" (v20). This verse alone buts and end to the "free grace" movement. Where you can accept Christ and carry on living without change..the carnal christian (no such thing).

But James just strengthens the hope of eternal security for the believer. Because even these good deeds, are worked in us -

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Philippians 2:12-13.


And God will see his work to completion:

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. - 1 Corinthians 1:7-9.


Simply put, Those in Christ will persevere to the end. The life of faith will produce good deeds, and God will preserve his children. None will be lost.

You're basically saying the same thing Gideon300 said. Faith and works go hand-in-hand. How do you then interpret James 2:22, specifically? Doesn't it say works must be accompanied by faith; and faith is completed, or perfected, by works. The obvious meaning, to me anyway, is both are necessary. If not, how do you understand it?

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

 

[phil36]

You're basically saying the same thing Gideon300 said. Faith and works go hand-in-hand. How do you then interpret James 2:22, specifically? Doesn't it say works must be accompanied by faith; and faith is completed, or perfected, by works. The obvious meaning, to me anyway, is both are necessary. If not, how do you understand it?

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

I would interpret it along with what all of scripture teaches. I would look at verses like Ephesians 2, where it says we where created in Christ Jesus for good works. We are a new creation first.

The ability to do these good works is not of or from ourselves but the work of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that good works are produced from faith not the other way around, it's the work of the Spirit in us setting us free to serve.. Notice I said the ability to produce fruit (good works), and not that we don't have to do them. We look after each other, like sheep who give water to our brothers and sisters, look after the poor, the widow and orphans, we give our time and talents to serve the kingdom etc etc,

But without the renewing of the heart and faith, there is no good works nor the ability to do these good works (fruit). As Paul says:

" But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." - Romans 6:22.


Personally I don't think those with a 'free grace '' theology understand the gospel or the nature of being created new in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. If that is what your thread is about I would agree with you. There is no such thing as a carnal christian.

I would say that those in Christ will persevere until the end. And the ability to do this is the work of the Triune God, the Father decree's the Son achieves and the Spirit empowers. The Christian will persevere in this truth and endure till the end, held secure in the arms of the Father.

 

[Runningman]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

The passage isn't about God requiring works to demonstrate faith to Himself. That would mean that God is not omniscient if He can't tell who has genuine faith.

Look again at James 2. The context is about proving to other humans that you have faith by demonstrating it through works.

In James 2:18, this is a hypothetical conversation between two people. This isn't a conversation between God and man.

James 2:18
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The context of the passage is about showing to people faith by works. This is not saying that demonstrating faith to people is required for salvation or not doing so results in a loss of salvation.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I would interpret it along with what all of scripture teaches. I would look at verses like Ephesians 2, where it says we where created in Christ Jesus for good works. We are a new creation first.

The ability to do these good works is not of or from ourselves but the work of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates that good works are produced from faith not the other way around, it's the work of the Spirit in us setting us free to serve.. Notice I said the ability to produce fruit (good works), and not that we don't have to do them. We look after each other, like sheep who give water to our brothers and sisters, look after the poor, the widow and orphans, we give our time and talents to serve the kingdom etc etc,

But without the renewing of the heart and faith, there is no good works nor the ability to do these good works (fruit). As Paul says:

" But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." - Romans 6:22.


Personally I don't think those with a 'free grace '' theology understand the gospel or the nature of being created new in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. If that is what your thread is about I would agree with you. There is no such thing as a carnal christian.

I would say that those in Christ will persevere until the end. And the ability to do this is the work of the Triune God, the Father decree's the Son achieves and the Spirit empowers. The Christian will persevere in this truth and endure till the end, held secure in the arms of the Father.

James 2:22 says: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;" As I understand this verse, faith is not perfect or complete without works. How can an imperfect faith save anyone? James says pretty much the same thing in 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" Can you at least see how I might come to my interpretation of these verses? How am I interpreting them incorrectly and how should they be interpreted?

 

[phil36]

James 2:22 says: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;" As I understand this verse, faith is not perfect or complete without works. How can an imperfect faith save anyone? James says pretty much the same thing in 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" Can you at least see how I might come to my interpretation of these verses? How am I interpreting them incorrectly and how should they be interpreted?

I don't see you mention how it is the Holy Spirit that gives you the ability. Faith and good works do go hand in hand. Only because we are enabled once saved by the Holy Spirit to produce fruit (Good works).

 

[Sipsey]

James is simply contrasting genuine faith with the artificial.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The passage isn't about God requiring works to demonstrate faith to Himself. That would mean that God is not omniscient if He can't tell who has genuine faith.

Look again at James 2. The context is about proving to other humans that you have faith by demonstrating it through works.

In James 2:18, this is a hypothetical conversation between two people. This isn't a conversation between God and man.

James 2:18
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The context of the passage is about showing to people faith by works. This is not saying that demonstrating faith to people is required for salvation or not doing so results in a loss of salvation.

But isn't God the One who ultimately decides if our faith is genuine. We can do good works toward our fellows all day long but if they aren't accompanied by faith toward God He doesn't recognize them. Why should we need to prove our faith to another person when it's God who weighs the heart? Something here doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I don't see you mention how it is the Holy Spirit that gives you the ability. Faith and good works do go hand in hand. Only because we are enabled once saved by the Holy Spirit to produce fruit (Good works).

I agree, but I don't the Holy Spirit being at the center of these verses; He's not even mentioned. The verses are about the relationship between faith and works.

 

[ResidentAlien]

James is simply contrasting genuine faith with the artificial.

How so? Can you give me an example from one of the verses?

 

[phil36]

I agree, but I don't the Holy Spirit being at the center of these verses; He's not even mentioned. The verses are about the relationship between faith and works.

I would suggest that when you are formulating a theology you take into account what all of scripture says.

And that relationship between faith and works is all and totally dependent on the work of the the Holy Spirit in the believer.

 

[phil36]

But isn't God the One who ultimately decides if our faith is genuine.

God doesn't decide who is of genuine faith and who is isn't. He knows who is of genuine faith as he himself saved them. Those who aren't genuine are only fooling themselves and other men around them.. Maybe the verses of James you are using may shine some light on this?

 

[Sipsey]

How so? Can you give me an example from one of the verses?

I think you need to study the entire book for the correct conclusion, not a couple of verses. I recommend a book by Spiros Zodhiates named, “Faith, Hope, and Love,” it’s an extremely thorough treatment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

you do what you do with every scripture

You take it in context

firs thing you do is find out WHO james was talking to do.

1. They CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH (he never said they had faith)
2. He said their faith was dead. A dead faith is NO FAITH
3. Scripture says we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, if you HAVE NO FAITH, your not saved.

James was telling his readers to test THEIR OWN FAITH. Not telling people like you to be a fruit inspector to determine if someone was saved or not

Since as paul said, We are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, and that those SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH will do the world they were created to do. If you DO NOT HAVE THE WORKS, You should QUESTION YOUR OWN FAITH.

No one can look at another person to see if they have works or not. Nor where they ever told to. James is telling peopel who are HEARERS OF THE WORD AND NOT DOERS. That they should question their faith.

What James is NOT doing, is contradicting Jesus and Paul who made it clear. We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH In Christ, and whoever has LIVING faith has eternal life.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE< but by His mercy

James did NOT CONTRADICT PAUL

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I realized after it was too late to change it, but I should've called this thread "Salvation by faith only: What do you do with James 2?" However, faith only and eternal security often go hand-in-hand so it's not too far off.

Faith is NEVER ALONE

so your point is MUTE

there is no such things as faith only. Even the theif on the cross showed a change of heart and the works which resulted.