Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

[Magenta]

Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and
as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

Acts 20:10 But Paul went down, threw himself on the young man,
and embraced him. “Do not be alarmed!” he said. “He is still alive!”

 

[ResidentAlien]

What do you think of the story of Paul and Eutychus? Paul preached on and on and I guess this guy was lazy and wasn't all that concerned and thought Paul was taking too long. Or did Paul cause him to go into a hypnotic-like state and get the warm and fuzzies right before he fell to his death?

It's interesting you should mention this. This is the only example in the New Testament of something going "on and on" and it wasn't music but preaching. It should also be noted, Eutychus wasn't hypnotized but asleep. There's a big difference.

 

[1ofthem]

Acts 20:10 But Paul went down, threw himself on the young man,
and embraced him. “Do not be alarmed!” he said. “He is still alive!”

Good thing for him, that Paul was there...lol

 

[1ofthem]

It's interesting you should mention this. This is the only example in the New Testament of something going "on and on" and it wasn't music but preaching. It should also be noted, Eutychus wasn't hypnotized but asleep. There's a big difference.

Yeah, well I'm just saying there is also balance in this. You have some thinking they may force down the Lord by singing song after song whether God is moving in it or not, and then you have others thinking... only about getting the Church meeting over and done with so they can get something to eat, watching some tv, or in the case of Eutychus...getting some sleep/rest and/or going on a trip...lol

 

[CherieR]

What do you think of the story of Paul and Eutychus? Paul preached on and on and I guess this guy was lazy and wasn't all that concerned and thought Paul was taking too long. Or did Paul cause him to go into a hypnotic-like state and get the warm and fuzzies right before he fell to his death?

Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

Sometimes, Christians need to be patient and worship God for as long as He wants and is moving on them. Now I have been in churches where they scream out song after song for what seems like hours...as if they are trying to scream or force God down and that's not going to work, either.

However, sometimes God wants more than everyone just going through the motions to try to get church service over before 8pm... so they can all go out and get some Pizza Hut or KFC before it closes...lol

I think it would have been better for this man to have not be sitting in the window if he was feeling that tired. But at least he was ok. Question though, was he only thought to be dead in this story?

 

[1ofthem]

I think it would have been better for this man to have not be sitting in the window if he was feeling that tired. But at least he was ok. Question though, was he only thought to be dead in this story?

Not sure...I've always heard it preached that he actually died and Paul healed him.

I heard a preacher say once (as a joke, I hope), good thing it was Paul because nowadays most preachers would be upset because he fell asleep during their surmon and just say well that's what he gets for not listening.

IDK, but it is for sure an interesting passage.

 

[ResidentAlien]

You have some thinking they may force down the Lord by singing song after song

They don't sing "song after song." This is something that may be misunderstood by others as well so I'll clarify. Usually it's just a few songs that go on and on; or a chorus that's repeated over and over. A lot of modern praise and worship songs are written with this mind. It's the repetitive nature of the music that produces the hypnotic effect.

 

[ResidentAlien]

As an example, I attended one particular church a few times and one of the standards was No Longer Slaves by Jonathan and Melissa Helser. Usually we'd sing the whole song through, and when we got to final chorus we'd just keep repeating it over and over for what seemed like forever.

I'm no longer a slave to fear​

I am a child of God​

I'm no longer a slave to fear​

I am a child of God. . .​

After a while you could see the expression on people's faces changing into a look of ecstasy. They were clearly enraptured by something, but I doubt it was the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Lord warned about false teachers and false religion. He's our example, so I do as He did.

These are not false teachers promoting false doctrine and this is Christian worship. They are mostly brothers and sisters in the Lord, even though they have accepted certain doctrines and practices which all Christians do not agree with. While not in accord with your preferences, it is not "false religion". While I do not worship as the Charismatics, I do not have the right to denigrate what they do. Let God be the Judge.

 

[ResidentAlien]

"Denigrate," that's another of those words like "complain."

 

[Runningman]

You wrote not about the father. You wrote about calling down the Holy Spirit for to fill the Atmosphare. You talking about praising the Holy Spirit. Thats different.
Bible teaches us to praise the father, nut not to praise the Holy Spirit.

God is the Holy Spirit and does desire that the Holy Spirit be praised and worshipped:

John 4:23-24
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Philippians 3:3
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Blade]

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

You did pick a Gem with Kari...oh man does she love the lord. I don't think you thought this out Did you listen to that video you posted? WHERE does His presence come from? UP from the ground? Out of us? WHY are we lifting our hands up?

Its clear you have no clue what conjuring means or you would never had posted this. Does Luke 11 13 mean anything to you? You just shared how you feel .. ok thanks but whats the point here? Well forgive me you left out all the other groups that also worship like this and they are NOT Charismatic. To pick this woman oh man does she love the lord ..so many times she will be crying the love she has for the Father. I know this love. So are they to come to you now so you can tell them how to really worship the lord.

Conjure.. you really think a demon, fallen angel can be "conjured" up or down lol? Its a lie.. man has no power what so ever over a demon or fallen angel. Only those that know Jesus Christ as lord. Deceived into thinking.. you have power to say something to CALL them ...lol anyway..

Just asked someone "ever heard anyone call down the holy spirit"? Call down? From where? HAHA.. yeah. .. like a demon fallen angel show up when you are worshiping GOD/JESUS they show up at HIS Name...no the FLEE

 

[ResidentAlien]

You did pick a Gem with Kari...oh man does she love the lord. I don't think you thought this out Did you listen to that video you posted? WHERE does His presence come from? UP from the ground? Out of us? WHY are we lifting our hands up?

Its clear you have no clue what conjuring means or you would never had posted this. Does Luke 11 13 mean anything to you? You just shared how you feel .. ok thanks but whats the point here? Well forgive me you left out all the other groups that also worship like this and they are NOT Charismatic. To pick this woman oh man does she love the lord ..so many times she will be crying the love she has for the Father. I know this love. So are they to come to you now so you can tell them how to really worship the lord.

Conjure.. you really think a demon, fallen angel can be "conjured" up or down lol? Its a lie.. man has no power what so ever over a demon or fallen angel. Only those that know Jesus Christ as lord. Deceived into thinking.. you have power to say something to CALL them ...lol anyway..

Just asked someone "ever heard anyone call down the holy spirit"? Call down? From where? HAHA.. yeah. .. like a demon fallen angel show up when you are worshiping GOD/JESUS they show up at HIS Name...no the FLEE

Okay, you love Kari Jobe. I happen to like the song too on a purely musical level.

But it's obvious you have no comprehension of the subject under discussion; so with that said, thanks for posting and have a blessed day.

 

[1ofthem]

They don't sing "song after song." This is something that may be misunderstood by others as well so I'll clarify. Usually it's just a few songs that go on and on; or a chorus that's repeated over and over. A lot of modern praise and worship songs are written with this mind. It's the repetitive nature of the music that produces the hypnotic effect.

I don't see how this could be conjuring. Focusing on the Lord, if that is what someone is doing from their heart while singing then it is not conjuring a wrong spirit.

Now, if it is for any other reason than focusing on worshipping and praising the Lord...i.e they think they have a beautiful voice and just want keep right on repeating a song...or they want to get some praise of men and are just putting on a show for others...trying to make it seem like they worship and praise better or more than anyone else then we know that is not of God.

But truly worshipping, praising and focusing on God from the heart can in no way be compared to conjuring up a wrong spirit or some type of hypnotic effect.

God knows the hearts whether others are worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth or not.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I don't see how this could be conjuring. Focusing on the Lord, if that is what someone is doing from their heart while singing then it is not conjuring a wrong spirit.

Now, if it is for any other reason than focusing on worshipping and praising the Lord...i.e they think they have a beautiful voice and just want keep right on repeating a song...or they want to get some praise of men and are just putting on a show for others...trying to make it seem like they worship and praise better or more than anyone else then we know that is not of God.

But truly worshipping, praising and focusing on God from the heart can in no way be compared to conjuring up a wrong spirit or some type of hypnotic effect.

God knows the hearts whether others are worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth or not.

The simple answer is it's conjuring because they're drawing something out of themselves. Conjure means to "to draw out" or "evoke."

Evocation is the opposite of invocation. In an invocation you're petitioning God, a spiritual being Who exists apart the material world. You're asking God to hear from heaven and respond.

In an evocation you're trying to draw something out of yourself. When someone says they're trying to "evoke a response" it means they're trying to get a response out of someone.

I know by the responses here that many believe what's happening in many of the praise and worship services is invocation. But IMO this isn't the case. God doesn't respond to this kind of invocation. It's earthy, sensual and self-indulgent. What's actually happening is people are conjuring up from within themselves emotions, happy chemicals and a feeling of pleasure. This turns of critical thinking and makes them prime targets for shady preacher or teacher.

 

[Aidan1]

Worship is also directed to the Son. Every knee will bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord according to Philippians 2:10-11. I don’t see explicit worship of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, but in John 4:24 Jesus says God is spirit.

Thats correct. You can find God father and God son adressed to worship, but still not the Holy Spirit. Thats maby, because the son came for to reveal the father and his will. The Holy Spirit was sent for to reveal what Jesus taught. He is his representent.
So anyhow the Holy Spirit is there for Equip us, for lead and guiding us, for to reveal us our sin, to teach us the truth, for to seal us, for to defend us, to translate our prayers.......

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Correct if the Lord is the Center there is no time limit to praise Him.

yeah I’m really not sure where the op is coming from unless it’s a denominational thing

 

[Aidan1]

God is the Holy Spirit and does desire that the Holy Spirit be praised and worshipped:

John 4:23-24
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Philippians 3:3
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

"In the spirit" means not the Holy Spirit.
Of course is God a Spirit.
John 4,23 says not: shall worship the Father and the Spirit.
It says: shall worship the Father in the Spirit.
These verses are nowhere mentioned the Holy Spirit, nor to worship the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thats correct. You can find God father and God son adressed to worship, but still not the Holy Spirit. Thats maby, because the son came for to reveal the father and his will. The Holy Spirit was sent for to reveal what Jesus taught. He is his representent.
So anyhow the Holy Spirit is there for Equip us, for lead and guiding us, for to reveal us our sin, to teach us the truth, for to seal us, for to defend us, to translate our prayers.......

Isn’t it a bit odd that Jesus did this before he began preaching the gospel ?

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭

and then began to say the things like this after he received the Holy Ghost which came down from heaven and lit upon him ?

“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Who came from above and who was speaking the gospel ?

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬

it seems as if the Holy Ghost preached the gospel through Christ being the word of God who is a spirit made flesh and dwelt among us so ,Man could hear and see and know him

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ is where father son and Holy Spirit are revealed to Mankind in one being always we’re one but now are
Manifest Father , son and Holy Ghost in one

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Holy Spirit preached Gods word through the Son.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But why calling the Holy Spirit down, if he lives already in every believer?

he obviously doesn’t live in every believer otherwise every believer would have agreement if they we’re filled with the same spirit we wouldn’t be in constant conflict over every scripture and didn’t he descend from heaven upon Christ as he began preaching the gospel ?

“And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we should consider the testing of spirits because when the Holy Ghost fills a person it’s going to bring the doctrine into the light of Christs word of Jews spoken by the Holy Ghost everyone who comes to accept Christs word is accepting the Holy Ghost and his word
And even when they do receive the spirit it’s going to always bring them back to the word of Christ in the gospel

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:23-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They really can’t be seperated in Christ we see the fullness of God in one and his word is the key to receiving and understanding the spirits word to all
Mankind

you can test spirits by thier doctrine coming from false teachers and prophets teaching contrary to Christ

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬