Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

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1ofthem

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Mar 30, 2016
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Come to think of it, most of this thread is odd to me.

Some seem to be saying we can't or shouldn't worship the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

What is that even about?

Now, I could see if someone was talking about worshipping someone or something that wasn't a part of God. Like worshipping and praying to Mary, Saint Peter, angels, or whoever/whatever else. They are not a part of God and that would be blasphemy.

But there is unity and power in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Then you have others saying that if you sing a gospel song for too long or repeat the lyrics, then you are somehow conjuring up a wrong spirit. Even if you are doing it out of a loving heart purely wanting to worship the Lord .

Maybe I'm missing something because none of this makes sense to me....just saying.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Okay, I'm going to break this down even further. Those who mock will continue to mock; those with wisdom may learn something.
Maybe I have not examined posts directed to you as carefully as you have, but who exactly has mocked you? You are the one who sees people sing praise songs and accuses them of 'conjuring.'

If you do care about wisdom, I would invite you to engage with some of the scriptural arguments directed your way. I know I have shared a lot of scripture to address your arguments against emotion in worship. Scripture encourages it and endorses praise as a response to certain emotional conditions. Many of your arguments were not in line with Biblical teaching.

And it just proves that the scoffers really have no sound counterarguments so they resort to personal attacks.
Is that why you have not presented sound arguments for many of your assertions? I have presented sound counterarguments.

The lyric's to Jobe's song, "Holy Spirt," go:

Holy Spirit, You are welcome here​
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere​

In the first place, the Holy Spirit doesn't need our permission to go anywhere or do anything.
The Psalms say, 'Let God arise.' Since God doesn't need our permission to arise, does that make the Bible wrong?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Secondly, the Holy Spirit doesn't need to flood the atmosphere. He lives within each one of us if we're born again. This notion of "filling the atmosphere" comes from the idea of Territorial Spirits. These are demonic spirits that rule the atmosphere of certain geographical areas. Before a city or region can be won for Christ, the territorial spirits must first be banished, or so it is taught especially by the New Apostolic Reformation.
Your line of reasoning doesn't make sense. What does the idea of the Holy Spirit 'flooding the atmosphere' have to do with territorial spirits.

Deuteronomy 32 speaks of Israel worshipping gods that are not God, shedim that their ancestors did not fear. Elsewhere, it says the gods of the nations of shedim. This translates as 'demons.' It is believed to derive from an Acadian word that may refer to 'territorial spirits.' But why would that have to do with this song requesting the Holy Spirit 'flood the atmosphere.'

This is why you are getting such a big backlash. Your conclusions are not reasonable and you are too ready to accuse people of something horrible.

As far as the idea of banishing territorial spirits go, my educated guess is that IHoP does not teach that. That sounds more like Peter Wagoner's ideas. One of the former staff pastors of a church IHOP grew out of wrote a book against some of this doctrine, considering some of the practices to be dangerous. The idea that we are supposed to get rid of principalities and powers in the heavens by rebuking them is not in the Bible. The Book of Jude should cause us to carefully examine such assertions. The weapon in the Ephesians spiritual warfare passage is the word of God. II Corinthians 10 talks about casting down imaginations and every high thought. The battle ground is the hearts and mind under the influence of these spiritual entities. I do not know Kari Jobe's personal ideas about this, but I spent some time at a church that sponsored a IHOP and I didn't hear this Peter Wagoner approach to spiritual warfare there.

The question is whether it is Biblical to ask the Spirit to 'flood the atmosphere.' Jumping to the idea of something demonic is not justified.

Would you add extra requirements to salvation? Would you say that in addition to believing the Biblical Gospel, one also has to do the following or else they receive a false spirit and not the Holy Spirit?

1. refrain from praying to or praising the Trinity
2. not experience any emotional enjoyment while praising God
3. not speak of the Holy Spirit filling a physical environment?

If these are required for salvation, why doesn't the Bible say so.

If I were writing a Christian song, I would stay away from writing songs of praise to the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." Some people take that and say it is inappropriate to praise the Spirit. I don't go that far. I wouldn't write lyrics, if I were a song writer, to promote doing that, but I am not going to condemn those who do.

I have also written at least one article on a forum directed toward Pentecostals and/or Charismatics questioning whether the emphasis on feeling God or feeling the Spirit in a meeting is a Biblical emphasis at all. But I do suspect some of your objections are the result of not studying the issue out.

If you consider when the temple was dedicated, the kavod of God filled the temple, the glory of God, the weightiness of God filled the temple like a cloud. The priests could not stand to minister. The Bible speaks in some places of God coming down. Moses wanted God to go before them in the desert. Moses also told God, "Show me your glory."

In Luke on one occasion, it says the power of God was present to heal the sick. The Spirit also came upon or fell upon various individuals in Acts, in some cases, those who had already been filled with the Spirit on prior occasions.

If you want to consider a doctrinal background for this, it is not territorial spirits, but rather the idea of the 'manifest presence of God'-- that while accepting the idea of omnipresence, we also see in scripture that God is specifically present on some occasions. Some Christians associate this with the presence of the Holy Spirit. Now if you want to take issue with that-- disagree with the idea of manifest presence or that that is about the Holy Spirit being present, you may do so. But the insinuations and accusations you are making isn't justified.

The NAR promotes a plan called the Seven Mountains Mandate, a form of dominionism. The idea is to take back for Christianity the seven spheres of influence now ruled by Satan and his demons. They are: government, media, family, business, education, church, and the arts. Notice the church is included in this list.
In order to take back these spheres, Christians are encouraged to do battle with the demons and cast them out. Then the doors will open for "Christianity" to step in a assume its rightful place as rulers. It stands to reason that if the leadership of the NAR (the "apostles" and "prophets") will inherit these kingdoms, they'll also inherit the church itself—theoretically at least, assuming their plan succeeds.
Again, Peter Wagner was into dominionism. There are some churches that are into that, and some churches are really into the '7 mountains' idea. There are also those who can appreciate the idea of Christians being salt and light in these various arenas without holding to a kingdom now, post-mil like eschatology... or the idea that principalities are supposed to be cast out of the heavens rather than cast out of people who are demonized.

You might find an individual at IHOP who accepts some of these ideas. I think IHOPs tend to be post-tribulation or historical millennial in their eschatology, not post-mil.

There are also different views on 'apostleship.' I don't care much for what I consider the NAR view on apostles. But there are others who recognize the use of the Greek word translated 'apostle' to refer to individuals sent with authority, and there are those who see an expression of it among those who plant churches. The A/G has a loose idea of an 'apostolic function' , in one of their position papers. Watchman Nee, some in the Brethren movement, even some Baptists and some in the house church movement recognize this use of the term 'apostle'. There may be some other Charismatics and Pentecostals who hold to this view. But it isn't the same as NAR thought on the issue.
Rather than casting out the demons, IMO the demons are actually helping them.
This looks like the opposite of Pascal's wager. Are you rather excited about the idea that if with your quick and easy approach to accusations, that if you make a wrong judgment and call the Holy Spirit a demon, that you may have no forgiveness in this age or in the age to come for that sin against the Holy Spirit?

No doubt I'll be labeled further as crazy or a complainer. That's okay. This is a real thing and all anyone has to do is look into it. I'm not sure if the Seven Mountains Mandate will succeed or fail; I don't really care. My whole point is to simply show where this idea of conjuring the "Holy Spirit" to fill the atmosphere comes from. It has gotten so far from preaching the gospel and making disciples it's absurd.
I see a combination of two things here. One is that you do not know that much about what you are talking about, and the other is the unreasonably harsh judgments.
 
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As I said, you exchange Spirit with Holy Spirit.
If I am not wrong then the bible teaches us and give examples for praising and worshipping. Nowhere we find that believers worshipping the Holy Spirit. The Adress is almost God the father.
I prefer to follow the bible more, then human made thoughts.
These aren't human thoughts.

The Holy Spirit is God and you can worship, praise, and pray to Him. There is ample proof the Holy Spirit is God and not some impersonal force.

Who or what do you think the Holy Spirit is?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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The Lord has been dealing with me on this lately.

I believe in the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But it seems to me Jesus appeared to show us how we can please the Father; and that is by believing in Him (Jesus) and following His example. I understand that all three persons are God, but I don't feel the need to worship anyone but the Father. It seems like that was the goal all along of Christ coming here: that is, to lead us back to the Father.

I have no opinion of whether someone can worship the Son or the Holy Spirit, that's up to them. I just find it necessary. I do think we should hold both the Son and the Holy Spirit with the same degree of reverence we hold the Father.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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These aren't human thoughts.

The Holy Spirit is God and you can worship, praise, and pray to Him. There is ample proof the Holy Spirit is God and not some impersonal force.

Who or what do you think the Holy Spirit is?
Do you dont read my posts? Of course the Holy Spirit is God.
In the bible you dont find that the Holy Spirit is the Adressat for worship.
It is almost the father, who is adressed to worship. So it is based on human thinking to Adress the Holy Spirit for worshipping insteaed of the father!
If i am wrong, show me the scripture please!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Do you dont read my posts? Of course the Holy Spirit is God.
In the bible you dont find that the Holy Spirit is the Adressat for worship.
It is almost the father, who is adressed to worship. So it is based on human thinking to Adress the Holy Spirit for worshipping insteaed of the father!
If i am wrong, show me the scripture please!
What I am reading is you acknowledge the Holy Spirit is God and then you refuse to worship Him like He's asking you to. That's confusing to me. I guess just follow your convictions.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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What I am reading is you acknowledge the Holy Spirit is God and then you refuse to worship Him like He's asking you to. That's confusing to me. I guess just follow your convictions.
Where in the Bible does God say to worship His Spirit?
 

Lizzy

Junior Member
Jan 18, 2018
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That's a hard question saint. I have for yrs conflicting thoughts on the matter. I believe it's one of the weaknesses of the church today.
I have been lead by the Holy Spirit to praise and worship God when I've heard good news or witnessed God at work.
I have forced praise and worship to proceed out of my mouth just as david discribe in the pslams.
I see worship and praise as a attitude of the heart and not some mood I need to have instilled by words or music.
A celebration of being a child of the most high,
We should enter into his gates with Thanksgiving and praise not come to seek it once there.
Sing to the Lord for he is good and worthy of all praise. Remind your soul refresh your Spirit exalt the Lord and he will lift you up.

Frankly I've never ment anyone to call down the Holy Spirit nor call down fire from heaven. I have been in many situations that the Spirit of the Lord has fallen on to the congregation. The glory of the Lord filling the temple. This was done by God and not by man.
This type of 'performance" worship really bugs me. I've gone to church w good friends of mine when I've gone to visit them. I do not like how I feel like I'm in a broadway production ! It's like everyone is trying to outdo the other persons worship. The lightshow across the ceiling, the 20 piece band, the jumping....etc. I'm so distracted by all the junk, I don't want to stay or get to know any of these people. It's just so weird. I've decided that when I go visit them, I'm not going to their service anymore because I feel like its all a show for one another. I don't know why they feel the need to perform to show that they love God.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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What is your definition of "modern worship stuff?" After reading my original post, what is it—as you understand it—am I "complaining" about?
While you singled out "charismatic" services, you were describing people who were worshiping and praising God in a JOYOUS manner. Singing, playing instruments, waving hands, and, possibly, even dancing. ALL OF THIS is found in Scripture, and NONE of this is forbidden by Scripture.

Now, I am Holiness, not Charismatic (if you know the difference) but we also sing, praise, play, and a couple of us have been known to throw our hands in the hair and do a shuffle step or two.

As for "calling down" the Holy Spirit, I have been in numerous worship services where the Pastor, or members called upon God to "pour out His Spirit upon them." Not a thing wrong with this. You do know that we can experience more than ONE infusion of the Holy Spirit right?
 

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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What I am reading is you acknowledge the Holy Spirit is God and then you refuse to worship Him like He's asking you to. That's confusing to me. I guess just follow your convictions.
Please show me from the word of God, that i am ask to worship the Holy Spirit.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Please show me from the word of God, that i am ask to worship the Holy Spirit.
Study the trinity and see that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God. If that isn't good enough for you then I can't help you. Good luck.
 
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Where in the Bible does God say to worship His Spirit?
The Bible says to worship God, right? We agree on that. Well, the Holy Spirit is literally God isn't He? We can prove that.

So what do you conclude from that?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The Bible says to worship God, right? We agree on that. Well, the Holy Spirit is literally God isn't He? We can prove that.
Btw, why don't you share a few scriptures to prove that while we are discussing this.

Do you accept the idea that there are three persons in the Trinity? You do not think Jesus Father or the Holy Spirit died on the cross do you?

Jesus said when the Spirit comes, 'He will glorify Me.'

John 4:23 comes to mind:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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Study the trinity and see that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God. If that isn't good enough for you then I can't help you. Good luck.
No showing from the scripure? Because you cant show, so its source is man thought and not what our father in heaven wants.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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No showing from the scripure? Because you cant show, so its source is man thought and not what our father in heaven wants.
The Holy Spirit is God.

Bible verses about worshipping God:

Matthew 4:10
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Revelation 22:9
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And the list goes on...
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Btw, why don't you share a few scriptures to prove that while we are discussing this.

Do you accept the idea that there are three persons in the Trinity? You do not think Jesus Father or the Holy Spirit died on the cross do you?

Jesus said when the Spirit comes, 'He will glorify Me.'

John 4:23 comes to mind:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
The Holy Spirit is God.

Bible verses about worshipping God:

Matthew 4:10
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Revelation 22:9
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And the list goes on...
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The Holy Spirit is God.

Bible verses about worshipping God:

Matthew 4:10
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Revelation 22:9
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And the list goes on...
You said you were going to show verses that show that the Holy Spirit is 'literally God'. Could you show the verses you had in mind.

Also, I would imagine most people on here at least claim to be Trinitarians who believe in three Persons of the Trinity. Do you believe in Modalism or Sabellianism?
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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The Holy Spirit is God.

Bible verses about worshipping God:

Matthew 4:10
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Revelation 22:9
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And the list goes on...
You seems not to read my posts.
Should I repead? The bible nowhere teaches or encourages us to worship God the Holy Spirit, but we should worship God the father.
All honor and praise is addressed to the father.