How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @DavidTree , Also ask yourself "why" regarding the following promise in chpt 3:5... is thereafter shown to be true of the 24 elders in chpt 4:4 -

3:5 -

3588 [e]
5 HO
5 Ὁ
5 The [one]
5 Art-NMS

3528 [e]
nikōn
νικῶν ,
overcoming
V-PPA-NMS

3779 [e]
houtōs
οὕτως
thus
Adv

4016 [e]
peribaleitai
περιβαλεῖται
will be clothed
V-FIM-3S [FUTURE indicative--WILL BE CLOTHED]

1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep

2440 [e]
himatiois
ἱματίοις
garments
N-DNP

3022 [e]
leukois
λευκοῖς .
white
Adj-DNP


THEN see in 4:4 what is said describing the 24 elders: "and on the thrones 24 elders sitting HAVING BEEN CLOTHED [perfect participle] in G2440 G3022" [same words as was promised in chpt 3:5, see (from "the things WHICH ARE" section--chpts 2-3)]

 

[rayzor]

Something not quite right in the way the 7 beatitudes of Revelation is written.

 

[cv5]

^ @DavidTree , Also ask yourself "why" regarding the following promise in chpt 3:5... is thereafter shown to be true of the 24 elders in chpt 4:4 -

3:5 -

3588 [e]
5 HO
5 Ὁ
5 The [one]
5 Art-NMS

3528 [e]
nikōn
νικῶν ,
overcoming
V-PPA-NMS

3779 [e]
houtōs
οὕτως
thus
Adv

4016 [e]
peribaleitai
περιβαλεῖται
will be clothed
V-FIM-3S [FUTURE indicative--WILL BE CLOTHED]

1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep

2440 [e]
himatiois
ἱματίοις
garments
N-DNP

3022 [e]
leukois
λευκοῖς .
white
Adj-DNP


THEN see in 4:4 what is said describing the 24 elders: "and on the thrones 24 elders sitting HAVING BEEN CLOTHED [perfect participle] in G2440 G3022" [same words as was promised in chpt 3:5, see (from "the things WHICH ARE" section--chpts 2-3)]

Thanks TDW. Can we all please agree that we have nailed down the identity of the 24 elders? I mean how many more unequivocal descriptors do we need?

It's the Church people. The CHURCH raptured to heaven, provided white robes provided thrones provided crowns, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb from every kindred tongue nation and people.

This is indeed one and only unique Church of Christ. Can we please now move on DavidTree, GaryA (and others)?

 

[rayzor]

The word "Elder" in the majority of places where it is used in the Scriptures means the representative head of a city, family, tribe or nation, so the "Four and Twenty Elders" are representative of the redeemed human race. But why 24 Elders? The Twenty-four is the number of the Priestly Courses as given in 1. Chron. 24:1-19. When David distributed the Priests into "Courses" he found there were 24 Heads of the Priestly families, and these 24 Heads he made representative of The wholesome priesthood. As the "Elders" are representative of both the Old and New Testament Saints, and the Old Testament Saints are represented by the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and the New Testament Saints' by the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, they together make up 24 representative characters.

 

[DavidTree]

^ @DavidTree , Also ask yourself "why" regarding the following promise in chpt 3:5... is thereafter shown to be true of the 24 elders in chpt 4:4 -

3:5 -

3588 [e]
5 HO
5 Ὁ
5 The [one]
5 Art-NMS

3528 [e]
nikōn
νικῶν ,
overcoming
V-PPA-NMS

3779 [e]
houtōs
οὕτως
thus
Adv

4016 [e]
peribaleitai
περιβαλεῖται
will be clothed
V-FIM-3S [FUTURE indicative--WILL BE CLOTHED]

1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep

2440 [e]
himatiois
ἱματίοις
garments
N-DNP

3022 [e]
leukois
λευκοῖς .
white
Adj-DNP


THEN see in 4:4 what is said describing the 24 elders: "and on the thrones 24 elders sitting HAVING BEEN CLOTHED [perfect participle] in G2440 G3022" [same words as was promised in chpt 3:5, see (from "the things WHICH ARE" section--chpts 2-3)]

The 24 Elder will be clothed in the same manner as all Saints because:
there is only One RIGHTEOUSNESS that is ACCEPTED by the Father = which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST.

A.) Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. Isa 11:5

B.) Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Tim 4:8

C.) You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev 3

D.) And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Rev 19

The 24 Elders wear the same White Garments not because they are the literal Church of Billions of Saints but because they have the SAME Righteousness as Christ and His Bride.

 

[DavidTree]

Thanks TDW. Can we all please agree that we have nailed down the identity of the 24 elders? I mean how many more unequivocal descriptors do we need?

It's the Church people. The CHURCH raptured to heaven, provided white robes provided thrones provided crowns, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb from every kindred tongue nation and people.

This is indeed one and only unique Church of Christ. Can we please now move on DavidTree, GaryA (and others)?

Let's say - for discovery/truth sake - that the 24 Elders are the Church. This does not in any way establish pre-trib rapture of the Church.
And this is easy to see from Revelation and the words of our LORD.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To @DavidTree 's Post #1033 comment (about my posts):

[my response]

YES I DID... see again my Post #1030 for that answer (regarding the words you "left out"... 4x):

[quoting my Post #1030]


Four times you've left out a very important word in verses 53 & 54 [used 4x in these two verses--but not showing in your quote--G3778 (4x)]:

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-53.htm "the corruptible THIS [G3778]" and "the mortal THIS [G3778]"

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-54.htm "the corruptible THIS [G3778]" and "the mortal THIS [G3778]"







[speaking specifically of "the dead IN Christ" and the "we which are alive" also "IN Christ"--i.e. "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" specifically... "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY"... (not something that was already WELL-KNOWN unto the OT saints: ex. Job, Daniel, Martha re: "IN the last day")]



[end quoting from my Post #1030]



...but please see the LINKS I provided, so you can see it in their CONTEXT (AT LINKS)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

B.) Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to

"THAT DAY" ["IN THAT DAY"] has not yet taken place, see

NO ONE is yet wearing these "stephanous / stephanon / crowns"... they await the "BEMA" (point in time; which is NOT YET OCCURRED)

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Take my word for it....its worth the effort. I learned more from this poster than everyone else here combined. A debt of gratitude I will never be able to repay.

Not a chance after the appalling attempted redefinition of [Apostasia] in order to change the Bible message to fit the doctrine.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ What is appalling is for the reader to INJECT any of the following phrases (INTO this particular text, 2Th2:3), from other CONTEXTS elsewhere:

--"FROM MOSES"

--"FROM THE FAITH"

--"FROM some FAITH issue"

--"FROM some POLITICAL issue"

--"FROM a DOCK" (as another instance of this word-use referred to)



____________


Another really appalling thing I've noticed, is when people mindlessly repeat what they've heard "scholars" saying in their 2-hr-long YouTube videos (this completely INCORRECT notion, NOT BASED ON THE TEXT): "if the word was 'departure' there, then it would say the totally NONSENSICAL sentence 'the RAPTURE can't happen till the RAPTURE/DEPARTURE happens"... which the TEXT WOULD NOT AND DOES NOT SAY--that is NOT what we are pointing out that the TEXT STATES. NO!

 

[DavidTree]

Take my word for it....its worth the effort. I learned more from this poster than everyone else here combined. A debt of gratitude I will never be able to repay.

You just confessed to sinning against Scripture (Deut 4:12, Proverbs 30: 5-6 and Rev 22: 18 -19).
My brother, you do not even realize it.....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Absolutely no way they are a literal 24 it is a symbolic 24.
Read Revelation 5:8-10. These passages clearly identify this group as the Christians of "all kindred and tongues and peoples and nations". There's no way you can obtain 24 individuals out of a group like that.
Rev 5:9
"For thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God BY THY BLOOD"......(CHRISTIANS!)

Good point.

The "24 elders" are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..."


Now, either this means that "24 [ONLY] literal individual dudes" have really been around[!] (in EVERY ONE of those things listed) and are multi-lingual on a massive scale[!] and the like... (ex. "out-of EVERY... NATION"... I mean, there is LOTS OF THOSE, MANY MORE THAN JUST "24," right?! )




... then I think it is perfectly reasonable to accept that these "24" are at least "representative" of a vast crowd [BODY] of people (i.e. the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" made up of both Jew and Gentile, but considered neither in our standing before God "IN Christ"--that is, ALL those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]"--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]; "HAVING BEEN CREATED *IN* Christ Jesus" Eph2:10 / "so that the two He might CREATE *IN* HIMSELF into ONE *NEW* MAN" Eph2:15; etc...)

 

[cv5]

Not a chance after the appalling attempted redefinition of [Apostasia] in order to change the Bible message to fit the doctrine.

There is a very sound argument to be made in favor of "departure". As for me....I completely agree with that application. The term apostasy does not fit anywhere in both books written to the Thessalonians. IMO the context demands "departure", to which fully half a dozen early bible translations agree.

 

[cv5]

The 24 Elder will be clothed in the same manner as all Saints because:
there is only One RIGHTEOUSNESS that is ACCEPTED by the Father = which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST.

A.) Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. Isa 11:5

B.) Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Tim 4:8

C.) You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev 3

D.) And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Rev 19

The 24 Elders wear the same White Garments not because they are the literal Church of Billions of Saints but because they have the SAME Righteousness as Christ and His Bride.

Same righteousness????That makes zero sense.

These formerly sinful men are PROVIDED redemption are PROVIDED white garments. And thrones. And crowns.

 

[DavidTree]

Same righteousness????That makes zero sense.

These formerly sinful men are PROVIDED redemption are PROVIDED white garments. And thrones. And crowns.

Same righteousness????That makes zero sense.

These formerly sinful men are PROVIDED redemption are PROVIDED white garments. And thrones. And crowns.

It doe snot have to make sense to you or anyone - only to God.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ - by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:4-10

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 1 Cor 1:30

 

[cv5]

It doe snot have to make sense to you or anyone - only to God.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ - by grace you have been saved, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:4-10

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 1 Cor 1:30

Oh brother.....

 

[ewq1938]

then I think it is perfectly reasonable to accept that these "24" are at least "representative" of a vast crowd [BODY] of people (i.e. the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" made up of both Jew and Gentile

This disproves such a notion:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

One of the literal 24 elders came to speak to John.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here again only one of 24 speaks to and he speaks about the great multitude of people who came out of great tribulation which further disproves Pretribs idea idea of saved people not being here for great tribulation.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

These literal 24 elders also have seats they sit on. This isn't symbolic of a large number of people. The church is not composed of all elders. Elders are higher authority within the church.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Here we see the 24 elders separated from another group of "much people" which further shows 24 elders are not a l;arger group of people but actually 24 elders as it says.

 

[DavidTree]

The word "Elder" in the majority of places where it is used in the Scriptures means the representative head of a city, family, tribe or nation, so the "Four and Twenty Elders" are representative of the redeemed human race. But why 24 Elders? The Twenty-four is the number of the Priestly Courses as given in 1. Chron. 24:1-19. When David distributed the Priests into "Courses" he found there were 24 Heads of the Priestly families, and these 24 Heads he made representative of The wholesome priesthood. As the "Elders" are representative of both the Old and New Testament Saints, and the Old Testament Saints are represented by the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and the New Testament Saints' by the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, they together make up 24 representative characters.

12 + 12 = 24

The 12 Patriarchs and the 12 Apostles are the 24 Elders of Revelation.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:28

Once again, our Lord Jesus give us clear understanding from His words that we are to follow - not from man/religion.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

 

[BryanPaul]

Typing on my phone so I cannot fulfill your request fully, but to make my point:

The pre-trib rapture is indeed the correct teaching. One must understand the pertinent Scriptures in light of the Jewish wedding ritual. After that....you will never be moved. BTW...there are several types and hints of the rapture in the OT.

Just read everything that TheDivineWatermark is posting on the topic. Give it time and prayer....you will pick it up.

Frankly I have no idea why the alternative views are still around. The alternatives are always lacking or faulty in some way. Zero loose ends with the pre-trib rapture....every Scripture is buttoned down beautifully with no conflicts or strays.

Thanks, i've been looking into the subject in detail for the past few weeks and i've come to the same conclusion. It seems really obvious to me now, has helped resolve any doubts and strengthened my faith and understanding. What a blessing !

 

[GaryA]

Absolutely no way they are a literal 24 it is a symbolic 24.

Yes way - it is literal and not symbolic.

Read Revelation 5:8-10. These passages clearly identify this group as the Christians of "all kindred and tongues and peoples and nations". There's no way you can obtain 24 individuals out of a group like that.

The 'group' you refer to is the "wider" scope - the larger group that the 24 belong to.

The 24 elders are unquestionably the same group of people spoken of in Revelation 1:6....."hath made us kings and priests".

It is the larger group mentioned above that is the same group of people.

Just as John - being a single individual belonging to the larger group - about which he speaks --- in the same manner, the 24 - all belonging to the larger group - about which they speak...