The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[ewq1938]

^ "The Day of the Lord" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," as some suppose.

That's not even what the verse says:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The day of Christ is day he returns and it's mentioned elsewhere:

Php 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
Php 1:4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
Php 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
Php 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Php 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
Php 2:18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.

The day of Christ is always a second coming reference which is a certain day he returns.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DavidTree just wanted to remind you,that even when Jesus walk with then and taught them directly they had trouble understanding.Our minds don't want to understand on the humane level.Or we want to change the meaning to fit our own mind set rather then submit to god.

Yes, and recall this incident involving Peter (and what Jesus spoke to him in response, as he/Peter alone was the one asking), in John 21 -

20 Having turned, Peter sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following, the one who also had reclined on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is it who is betraying You?” 2 Therefore having seen him, Peter says to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?”

22 Jesus says to him [that is, to Peter], “If I desire him to remain until I come, what is it to you? You follow Me!” 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brothers, that this disciple does not die. But Jesus had not said to him [/to Peter] that he does not die, but, “If I desire him to remain until I come, what is it to you?”

And this was the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after that He was risen from the dead, per v.14 (and this was apparently after John 20:22 occurred, per the wording on 21:1,14).


Wonder how far and wide that rumor / untruth / incorrect info spread? The text just says it "went out among the brethren"... it doesn't really tell us where all it may have gone from there, from that point... but it started via Peter (and his mis-comprehension of just what Jesus had said, there)...


Even later Peter said, in 2 Peter 3:16, regarding some of the things in Paul's letter, that they are...

1722 [e]
en
ἐν
among
Prep

3739 [e]
hais
αἷς
which
RelPro-DFP

1510 [e]
estin
ἐστιν
are
V-PIA-3S

1425 [e]
dysnoēta
δυσνόητά
difficult to be understood
Adj-NNP

5100 [e]
tina
τινα
some things
IPro-NNP


What could this mean, that everything Paul wrote in his epistles was clear as a bell ('easy as pie,' so to speak)??






And even Paul himself said (in Acts 20), "29 I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, ..."

... but then he adds, "32 And now I commit you to God and to the word of His grace, being able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all those having been sanctified."

 

[DavidTree]

This

DavidTree just wanted to remind you,that even when Jesus walk with then and taught them directly they had trouble understanding.Our minds don't want to understand on the humane level.Or we want to change the meaning to fit our own mind set rather then submit to god.

This all changed after the Lord's Ascension in Acts 1.

When the Promise of the Father came, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, their minds/understanding came ALIVE.

 

[DavidTree]

I believe you are misunderstanding the text, and the order / sequence regarding which these are being expressed:

The text actually states "those having fallen asleep through Jesus shall God bring WITH [G4862 -UNIONed-with] Him [/Jesus]" - 1Th4:14 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm .



And the means by which this will be able to take place (as stated in v.14), is this: "[re: the "caught up [harpagēsometha - SNATCH-ACTION] TOGETHER [/at the same time] WITH" thing, aka "SNATCH / rapture" of the "ONE BODY"]<--"SO / THUS / IN THIS MANNER [G3779] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" [not PRIOR to that point in time (the "SNATCH-ACTION / rapture"), see] v.17 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

This requires "the dead IN Christ's" resurrection and glorified bodies (not as they are NOW up in Heaven "present with the Lord" [but "ABSENT from the body"])--when thereafter we'll be "PRESENTED" together (AS "ONE") "TO CHRIST" (bodily / physically--in glorified bodies)

Absent from the body means to be Present with the LORD - what Bible are you reading? are you a JW?

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes,
well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-8

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That's not even what the verse says:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In past posts, I listed something like 23-24 versions having it as "the Day of the Lord" (not "the day of Christ")...



...and I believe that indeed makes the most/BEST sense of the text (where the FALSE CLAIM was that it "IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" v.2; and Paul's reference to "that ye be not SHAKEN in mind, or be TROUBLED, as that [the day of the Lord IS PRESENT--perfect indicative--meaning, already having come and unfolding in their present experience, for some amount of TIME]"





The false claim (of v.2) was not that JESUS HIMSELF had already come (i.e. the Rapture / caught up event, and all that entails); Rather, that "the DOTL" (i.e. JUDGMENTs unfolding, which PRECEDES His Return to the earth Rev19... aka what we commonly call the TRIB YEARS, and what the OT prophesies will unfold upon the earth OVER TIME--not merely a "singular 24-hr day")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Absent from the body means to be Present with the LORD - what Bible are you reading? are you a JW?

THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID!!! (I'm convinced now that you most certainly have trouble with reading comprehension!)



Tell me what it is that you believe 2 Corinthians 5:6,8 is saying... if you think it's different from what I've said.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[re: John 21 and Peter's mis-apprehension of Jesus' words there] And this was the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after that He was risen from the dead, per v.14 (and this was apparently after John 20:22 occurred, per the wording on 21:1,14).

...by which verse, I meant this: "And having said this, He breathed on them and He says to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" John 20:22 (prior to the later Jn21 thing with Peter)

 

[DavidTree]

THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID!!! (I'm convinced now that you most certainly have trouble with reading comprehension!)



Tell me what it is that you believe 2 Corinthians 5:6,8 is saying... if you think it's different from what I've said.

Exactly what it says - nothing more needed to be said.

1.) For you, i will say this - the Apostle Paul is in Heaven right now wearing a White Robe and worshipping God - simple.
also
2.) The dead in Christ (1Thess 4) are in Heaven with the Apostles and all the Saints wearing White Robes and worshipping God.
also
3.) since then and whoever dies in the Lord, as of this very moment, are/will be in Heaven, given a White Robe and found worshipping God.

1,2,3 say it with me

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In my previous post... where you may have been confused by my word "PRESENTED [TO CHRIST]" (as "ONE BODY" / i.e. the "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" and relating to "the MARRIAGE" itself... per 2Cor11:2 / Eph5:27)...


...I was referring this word:

-- G3936 "to PRESENT" (as in 2Cor11:2 and Eph5:27... which will only take place at the time of our corporate "SNATCH-action / Rapture / CAUGHT UP" thing, i.e. in our glorified / perfected BODIES [and "AS ONE"])...


[...not this word...]


-- G1736 "be present / be at home with" (as in 2Cor5:6,8... which takes place upon the DEATH of the believer [that is, "those who sleep through Jesus"--aka when a believer DIES<--the "unclothed" word of this passage... that is, when we/believers DIE we are "ABSENT FROM the body"--tho certainly "PRESENT / AT HOME WITH [G1736] the Lord" ])

 

[DavidTree]

In my previous post... where you may have been confused by my word "PRESENTED [TO CHRIST]" (as "ONE BODY" / i.e. the "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" and relating to "the MARRIAGE" itself... per 2Cor11:2 / Eph5:27)...


...I was referring this word:

-- G3936 "to PRESENT" (as in 2Cor11:2 and Eph5:27... which will only take place at the time of our corporate "SNATCH-action / Rapture / CAUGHT UP" thing, i.e. in our glorified / perfected BODIES [and "AS ONE"])...


[...not this word...]


-- G1736 "be present / be at home with" (as in 2Cor5:6,8... which takes place upon the DEATH of the believer [that is, "those who sleep through Jesus"--aka when a believer DIES<--the "unclothed" word of this passage... that is, when we/believers DIE we are "ABSENT FROM the body"--tho certainly "PRESENT / AT HOME WITH [G1736] the Lord" ])

What takes place at the First Resurrection is Christ Returning with His Saints/the Church which is in Heaven with Him now.
Our Lord brings with Him the Saints/Church to Resurrect their bodies and to transform those dead bodies into His Resurrected Likeness.
IMPORTANT - Do not miss this: After that, those Saints who made it ALIVE through the Great Tribulation as PROPHESIED by Our LORD in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 3:10 will be caught up/gathered together/ and transformed just as those who were FIRST,
BEFORE them - the Resurrected Saints at the Second Coming of Christ.

Rapture is last in line for Transformation - it only happens AFTER the dead in Christ are Resurrected.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DavidTree, the point in time you are referencing (Rev19 / 20:5,6 "the resurrection the FIRST [ADJECTIVE]"<--not the first moment any saints will have been resurrected[!])... takes place WELL-AFTER this:

--the "2 Witnesses" who will be resurrected [defined as "to stand again [on the earth]"] at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" per Rev11 (at a time-slot DISTNCT from when all OTHER "saints" will be resurrected)... But your viewpoint disregards several things, in order to DISMISS what Scripture itself is conveying about this (and pertaining to "chronology"... which many viewpoints completely disregard);


[then there's THIS to consider too...]

--1 Corinthians 15:23 says "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word that means "of more than two"] in his own ORDER / RANK" (meaning there is an ORDER / RANK to it, i.e. that there does not remain only one at one singular point in time--agreeing with both Rev20:5,6's "first [ADJECTIVE]" wording, which is the SAME GREEK WORD [an ADJECTIVE] Paul used when speaking of himself as "chief [adjective] of sinners" [not the first one EVER, sequentially!!], as well as not contradicting the "2W" being resurrected [and ascend up into Heaven] WELL-PRIOR TO that point; and agreeing with "resurrection OF LIFE" [<--where "the resurrection the first [adjective]" is expressing a QUALITY consistent with this Jn5:29 verse--"resurrection OF LIFE" as opposed to "resurrection OF DAMNATION / JUDGMENT"]);

--Paul's saying, "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" (not something Job and Daniel and Martha already WELL-KNEW!! )... then proceeded with his speaking specifically of "THIS corruptible" (i.e. "the DEAD *IN* Christ," who "sleep through Jesus") and "THIS mortal" (i.e. the "we which are ALIVE" component of the SAME "ONE BODY" who are ALSO "*IN* Christ");


-- could say more... but I'm outta time!

 

[ewq1938]

In past posts, I listed something like 23-24 versions having it as "the Day of the Lord" (not "the day of Christ")...

So, we should just ignore that the manuscripts have Χριστός Christos and we should change it to something else? Do you see why people disagree with your mishandling of the scriptures? You change A LOT of things so you can change the meaning. You do it all time.

The verse says day of Christ not day of the Lord and yes, it is important to stick with scripture as it is, not adding or taking away from it which can have serious repercussions.

The false claim (of v.2) was not that JESUS HIMSELF had already come (i.e. the Rapture / caught up event, and all that entails);

Some people thought the day of Christ/the second coming and rapture had happened and they had missed it which is why Paul starts out by telling us what subject he was going to address. It's simple to understand if you have no prior agenda to prove:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That's also what Paul is speaking about in verse 2. You are showing that you have a hard time understanding Paul but people like myself and others do not find his writings hard to understand. My advice is to stop teaching because you teach errors and start studying and learning. That is how one grows and learns.

 

[rayzor]

This


This all changed after the Lord's Ascension in Acts 1.

When the Promise of the Father came, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, their minds/understanding came ALIVE.

It's not easy or more people would know.
yea for them but i remember Paul getting kick out of one of the churches.On a different note Remember Paul had to rebuked Peter for compromise.

 

[DavidTree]

It's not easy or more people would know.
yea for them but i remember Paul getting kick out of one of the churches.On a different note Remember Paul had to rebuked Peter for compromise.

AGREE - Paul rebuked Peter over being a hypocrite and compromising the Gospel with Partiality -
Had nothing to do with or about the Lord's Second Coming.
Thank You Brother for the reminder.

 

[DavidTree]

You said: DavidTree, the point in time you are referencing (Rev19 / 20:5,6 "the resurrection the FIRST [ADJECTIVE]"<--not the first moment any saints will have been resurrected[!])... takes place WELL-AFTER this:

What, in Scripture only, your words do not qualify, takes place "WELL-AFTER" the First Resurrection as stated and Ordered by God in Revelation ch6 and ch 20.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ No, I'm saying the opposite of what you've read my words to say.

I'm saying the chronology of Revelation discloses that the "2W" are resurrected at "the 6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" PRIOR TO [well-prior to] WHEN those who will have been "beheaded / martyred" in the second half [1260 days remaining; from the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" MID-trib-point perspective] will be resurrected at the END of the ENTIRE second half (per Rev20:4b);

--not so re: the "2W," per Revelation 11:11,14 [8:13], when there's STILL YET to take place (AFTER they ascend up to Heaven) the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial" and all "7 Vials" (before Rev19's Second Coming to the earth will occur / which is the time-slot for Rev20:4b,5,6 [not to mention: Dan12:13 "at the END of the days [at the END of the "days" being referenced in that chpt, i.e. at the END of the second half of Trib yrs]" and Jn11:24 (and parallels), and Job 19:25-27, etc<---already well-known unto all OT saints... it was NO "MYSTERY"! ["mystery" = <--now being disclosed after Christ's death / resurrection / exaltation, via the "[NT] apostles and prophets" and written epistles we find in Scripture, the completed canon])

 

[walknlight]

^ No, I'm saying the opposite of what you've read my words to say.

I'm saying the chronology of Revelation discloses that the "2W" are resurrected at "the 6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" PRIOR TO [well-prior to] WHEN those who will have been "beheaded / martyred" in the second half [1260 days remaining; from the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" MID-trib-point perspective] will be resurrected at the END of the ENTIRE second half (per Rev20:4b);

--not so re: the "2W," per Revelation 11:11,14 [8:13], when there's STILL YET to take place (AFTER they ascend up to Heaven) the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial" and all "7 Vials" (before Rev19's Second Coming to the earth will occur / which is the time-slot for Rev20:4b,5,6 [not to mention: Dan12:13 "at the END of the days [at the END of the "days" being referenced in that chpt, i.e. at the END of the second half of Trib yrs]" and Jn11:24 (and parallels), and Job 19:25-27, etc<---already well-known unto all OT saints... it was NO "MYSTERY"! ["mystery" = <--now being disclosed after Christ's death / resurrection / exaltation, via the "[NT] apostles and prophets" and written epistles we find in Scripture, the completed canon])

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11996308/
Check it out...

 

[Clayman]

^ No, I'm saying the opposite of what you've read my words to say.

I'm saying the chronology of Revelation discloses that the "2W" are resurrected at "the 6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" PRIOR TO [well-prior to] WHEN those who will have been "beheaded / martyred" in the second half [1260 days remaining; from the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" MID-trib-point perspective] will be resurrected at the END of the ENTIRE second half (per Rev20:4b);

--not so re: the "2W," per Revelation 11:11,14 [8:13], when there's STILL YET to take place (AFTER they ascend up to Heaven) the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial" and all "7 Vials" (before Rev19's Second Coming to the earth will occur / which is the time-slot for Rev20:4b,5,6 [not to mention: Dan12:13 "at the END of the days [at the END of the "days" being referenced in that chpt, i.e. at the END of the second half of Trib yrs]" and Jn11:24 (and parallels), and Job 19:25-27, etc<---already well-known unto all OT saints... it was NO "MYSTERY"! ["mystery" = <--now being disclosed after Christ's death / resurrection / exaltation, via the "[NT] apostles and prophets" and written epistles we find in Scripture, the completed canon])

Exactly, there are only two resurrections, but trying to say there are only two timings is really stretching things too far. Jesus partook of the first resurrection that is the resurrection of eternal life, and as you say the two witnesses also take part of the first resurrection again at a different time, those that try to argue that some cant be resurrected before the tribulation really score points against themselves here.

 

[rayzor]

Exactly, there are only two resurrections, but trying to say there are only two timings is really stretching things too far. Jesus partook of the first resurrection that is the resurrection of eternal life, and as you say the two witnesses also take part of the first resurrection again at a different time, those that try to argue that some cant be resurrected before the tribulation really score points against themselves here.

I think day of the lord gets mixed up with rapture.2 be honest i get them mixed up 2.All man will see him even those that pierce him and it is written all tribes and nation will moan because of him.Jesus did say if i be lifted up from the earth i draw all man onto me.You see some of us are not humane.

 

[Clayman]

I think day of the lord gets mixed up with rapture.2 be honest i get them mixed up 2.

Understandable, The Day of the Lord is linked to the 7 years of tribulation and the wrath, and also His second coming, and agree the rapture is a separate event, which is the whole reason for the writing of the epistle to the Thessalonians, to me they thought they were in the tribulation period or in the day of the Lord, and one of the reasons Paul explains to them that one of the reasons they cannot be was that the rapture or departure had not yet occurred, reading the whole letter in this context just lines up to me.

All man will see him even those that pierce him and it is written all tribes and nation will moan because of him.Jesus did say if i be lifted up from the earth i draw all man onto me. You see some of us are not humane.

Another reason I see the coming of the Lord to the earth with his saints as different to the Lord coming for His saints, is at the end of the tribulation every eye will see him, yet at the coming for His saints it will be in the twinkling of an eye, everyone will be, uhh where did they go???