How to defend the doctrine of the Holy Trinity

[TimothyGodIsLove]

Is it correct to assert that the concept of the Holy Trinity might have been invented by the Roman Catholic Church after all?
First let's define what this concept means,
The Holy Trinity is a doctrine that states that God has three personas namely:
a)The Father
b) The Son
c) The Holy Spirit
The doctrine goes further to state that each of these is God and they are one hence the Three in One and One in Three doctrine.
My challenge to this doctrine is if the doctrine holds then that makes Jesus and The Father equal which is false because
Jesus himself said this in John 14:28
"The Father is Greater than I".
The other challenge is that Jesus never emphasized the doctrine when he introduced the Lord's Prayer in Mathew 6:9-13.
The Holy Spirit is not digged into a lot, the picture of the Holy Spirit in the works of salvation comes in after Jesus ascends into the Father. The only verse that supports this doctrine is Mathew 28:19
"...baptise them in the name of the Father, The son and of The Holy Spirit".
I think this could be a big misinterpretation of why Jesus said this, there is no indication that from this Jesus is God or The Holy Spirit is also God, what are your thoughts and interpretation of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

 

[bluto]

The first thing I would like to do is correct you on what "you" think the Trinity is from what you stated. There is only "ONE" God who chose to manifest Himself as three persons that are identified in Scripture as God. They are not three beings of God or not three Gods because that would be "Polytheism."

And yes, Jesus Christ as the Son of God is equal to His Father in nature, (and so is the Holy Spirit) because all three have the same nature or essence yet they are "distinct" persons, not three separate persons. At John 5:17 Jesus said, MY FATHER is working until now, and I Myself am working." What do the Jews say at vs18? "For this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why Tim)? He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."

At John 8:56 Jesus says to the Jews, "You father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." Vs57, "The Jews therefore said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Vs58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." Can you please tell me why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus Tim?

John 10:30, "I and the Father, we are one." (One what Tim?) When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Why Tim? At vs32 Jesus says, "I showed you many good works from the Fatherf for which of them are you stoning Me?" Vs33, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." (Did Jesus commit blasphemy Tim, yes or no?)

John 19:7, "The Jews answered Him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because (or why Tim?) He make Himself the Son of God." This is from the trial record of Jesus and Matthew 26::57-66 covers the trial extensively. In fact, so extensively the high priest Caiaphas at Matthew 26:63 says, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether (1) You are the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God?"

The high is asking Jesus to swear an oath to God that He is the Messiah the Son of God. At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "Yes, I am." At Matthew 26:65 the high priest "tore his robes, saying, He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have heard the blasphemy." He is deserving of death! (vs66).

So what was the blasphemy Jesus committed Tim? And is it blasphemy to claim to be the Messiah? Is it blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God?

You also brought up John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I." The Father is greater than Jesus in position, why is that? Because according to Philippians 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, vs6, who, ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God, (although means "in spite of the fact" that Jesus existed as God) did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, vs7, "but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men"

This means Jesus Christ existed as God all along but when the Father sent Him into the world Jesus did not cling to His prerogatives of deity. In other words He did not use His Godly attributes to His advantage. He was truly a 100% human being that was dependent on His Father in all things just like were suppose to do.

Regarding the Trinity please look at it this way. There are billions of human beings. Our nature is that of human. You are the person of your father or mother. You are your own person and what you have in common as do I is we all have the same nature. Just like Gods nature is shared by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Gods nature is what separates us from all that is not God. A birds nature or an animals nature distinguishes them from each other. It's a universal law that a son shares the same nature as its father.

Oh yea, what about the Holy Spirit? Read the following:

"The Holy Spirit is said to have at least 73 personal characteristics in the Bible. The Bible does not say Paul 's spirit or anyone else has those characteristics.
…..Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit
…..The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
…..Some heterodox religious groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor 12:11), a self, (John 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
…..There are, at least, seventy three (73) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.
Names of the Spirit (7)
1. God -Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
7. Spirit of Jesus – Acts of the Apostles 16:7
Attributes of (9)
8. Eternal –Hebrews 9:14
9. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
10. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:7-8
11. Distinct will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12. Loves - Romans 15:30
13. Speaks - Acts of the Apostles 8:29; Acts of the Apostles 13:2
14. Distinct mind from the father and the son– Romans 8:27
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
15. Distinct self from the father and the son – John 16:13
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
17. Dove - Matthew 3:15
18. Wind - John 3:5
19. Fire - Acts of the Apostles 2:3
Sins Against (6)
20. Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
21. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts of the Apostles 7:51
22. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
23. Lied to - Acts of the Apostles 5:3
24. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
25. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
26. Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
27. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
28. Led by - Luke 4:1
29. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
30. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
31. Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Galatians 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Peter 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts of the Apostles 13:24; Acts of the Apostles 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts of the Apostles 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Corinthians 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts of the Apostles 2:4; Acts of the Apostles 4:29-31; Acts of the Apostles 5:18-20; Acts of the Apostles 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts of the Apostles 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1,14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts of the Apostles 13:4
37 Sent - Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Ephesians 3:16; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts of the Apostles 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[92] Total scripture"

This stuff is not hard to understand. And btw, I just touched on this issue, I can give much more evidence.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[justbyfaith]

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

 

[TimothyGodIsLove]

The first thing I would like to do is correct you on what "you" think the Trinity is from what you stated. There is only "ONE" God who chose to manifest Himself as three persons that are identified in Scripture as God. They are not three beings of God or not three Gods because that would be "Polytheism."

And yes, Jesus Christ as the Son of God is equal to His Father in nature, (and so is the Holy Spirit) because all three have the same nature or essence yet they are "distinct" persons, not three separate persons. At John 5:17 Jesus said, MY FATHER is working until now, and I Myself am working." What do the Jews say at vs18? "For this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why Tim)? He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."

At John 8:56 Jesus says to the Jews, "You father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." Vs57, "The Jews therefore said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Vs58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." Can you please tell me why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus Tim?

John 10:30, "I and the Father, we are one." (One what Tim?) When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Why Tim? At vs32 Jesus says, "I showed you many good works from the Fatherf for which of them are you stoning Me?" Vs33, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." (Did Jesus commit blasphemy Tim, yes or no?)

John 19:7, "The Jews answered Him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because (or why Tim?) He make Himself the Son of God." This is from the trial record of Jesus and Matthew 26::57-66 covers the trial extensively. In fact, so extensively the high priest Caiaphas at Matthew 26:63 says, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether (1) You are the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God?"

The high is asking Jesus to swear an oath to God that He is the Messiah the Son of God. At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "Yes, I am." At Matthew 26:65 the high priest "tore his robes, saying, He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have heard the blasphemy." He is deserving of death! (vs66).

So what was the blasphemy Jesus committed Tim? And is it blasphemy to claim to be the Messiah? Is it blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God?

You also brought up John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I." The Father is greater than Jesus in position, why is that? Because according to Philippians 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, vs6, who, ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God, (although means "in spite of the fact" that Jesus existed as God) did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, vs7, "but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men"

This means Jesus Christ existed as God all along but when the Father sent Him into the world Jesus did not cling to His prerogatives of deity. In other words He did not use His Godly attributes to His advantage. He was truly a 100% human being that was dependent on His Father in all things just like were suppose to do.

Regarding the Trinity please look at it this way. There are billions of human beings. Our nature is that of human. You are the person of your father or mother. You are your own person and what you have in common as do I is we all have the same nature. Just like Gods nature is shared by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Gods nature is what separates us from all that is not God. A birds nature or an animals nature distinguishes them from each other. It's a universal law that a son shares the same nature as its father.

Oh yea, what about the Holy Spirit? Read the following:

"The Holy Spirit is said to have at least 73 personal characteristics in the Bible. The Bible does not say Paul 's spirit or anyone else has those characteristics.
…..Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit
…..The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
…..Some heterodox religious groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor 12:11), a self, (John 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
…..There are, at least, seventy three (73) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.
Names of the Spirit (7)
1. God -Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
7. Spirit of Jesus – Acts of the Apostles 16:7
Attributes of (9)
8. Eternal –Hebrews 9:14
9. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
10. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:7-8
11. Distinct will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12. Loves - Romans 15:30
13. Speaks - Acts of the Apostles 8:29; Acts of the Apostles 13:2
14. Distinct mind from the father and the son– Romans 8:27
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
15. Distinct self from the father and the son – John 16:13
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
17. Dove - Matthew 3:15
18. Wind - John 3:5
19. Fire - Acts of the Apostles 2:3
Sins Against (6)
20. Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
21. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts of the Apostles 7:51
22. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
23. Lied to - Acts of the Apostles 5:3
24. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
25. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
26. Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
27. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
28. Led by - Luke 4:1
29. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
30. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
31. Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Galatians 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Peter 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts of the Apostles 13:24; Acts of the Apostles 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts of the Apostles 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Corinthians 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts of the Apostles 2:4; Acts of the Apostles 4:29-31; Acts of the Apostles 5:18-20; Acts of the Apostles 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts of the Apostles 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1,14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts of the Apostles 13:4
37 Sent - Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Ephesians 3:16; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts of the Apostles 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[92] Total scripture"

This stuff is not hard to understand. And btw, I just touched on this issue, I can give much more evidence.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Was God referring to the Holy Trinity in creation when He said these words "Let us make ", the us refers to the Son and the Holy Ghost? If that is the case then the doctrine holds but scholars shouldn't dig too much into the doctrine, it could cause confusions.

 

[Edify]

They can be one in vision, unity, & purpose without being equal. For example:

Ephesians 1 15For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your lovef toward all the saints, 16I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Phil.2: 5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,b 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,c being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

These verses explain there wasn't eqality as God even though Jesus was, and always has been, God. In order to elevate Him, there had to be a lower place to elevate Him from.

1Cor 15:20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Even when Jesus is given "a name above every name", He stays in subjection unto the Father, who is above all.

 

[Adstar]

Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit are One..

Jesus was and is God made manifest in the flesh..

1 Timothy 3:
16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Jesus is the fulfulment of the Prophecy in Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:
6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

 

[BonnieClaire]

Was God referring to the Holy Trinity in creation when He said these words "Let us make ", the us refers to the Son and the Holy Ghost? If that is the case then the doctrine holds but scholars shouldn't dig too much into the doctrine, it could cause confusions.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over
the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ~KJV

...but what really troubles you about this verse in Genesis?

 

[DavidTree]

Was God referring to the Holy Trinity in creation when He said these words "Let us make ", the us refers to the Son and the Holy Ghost? If that is the case then the doctrine holds but scholars shouldn't dig too much into the doctrine, it could cause confusions.

THREE Persons of the Godhead = Father Son Holy Spirit

From Genesis to Revelation

Can we understand how THEY are ONE ELOHIM - No - No one can

Elohim has given us His Word which paints the Picture of the "Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness"

It is all there from Genesis to Revelation and only perceived through the Word and the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

THREE Persons of the Godhead = Father Son Holy Spirit

From Genesis to Revelation

Can we understand how THEY are ONE ELOHIM - No - No one can

Elohim has given us His Word which paints the Picture of the "Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness"

It is all there from Genesis to Revelation and only perceived through the Word and the Holy Spirit.

I understand it. See my thread.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think this could be a big misinterpretation of why Jesus said this, there is no indication that from this Jesus is God or The Holy Spirit is also God, what are your thoughts and interpretation of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

Quite the opposite. Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all mentioned together, that is sufficient evidence that each one is God yet there is one God in three Persons.

Also, your title should be "How to attack the doctrine on the Trinity" since that is exactly what you are doing.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If that is the case then the doctrine holds but scholars shouldn't dig too much into the doctrine, it could cause confusions.

There is no confusion in believing that Elohim (God) is a uni-plural word. It implies that there are more than one, since in Hebrew words ending in -im mean plurality. Indeed, when applied to false gods in the plural the same word in used.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

 

[TimothyGodIsLove]

The first thing I would like to do is correct you on what "you" think the Trinity is from what you stated. There is only "ONE" God who chose to manifest Himself as three persons that are identified in Scripture as God. They are not three beings of God or not three Gods because that would be "Polytheism."

And yes, Jesus Christ as the Son of God is equal to His Father in nature, (and so is the Holy Spirit) because all three have the same nature or essence yet they are "distinct" persons, not three separate persons. At John 5:17 Jesus said, MY FATHER is working until now, and I Myself am working." What do the Jews say at vs18? "For this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why Tim)? He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."

At John 8:56 Jesus says to the Jews, "You father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." Vs57, "The Jews therefore said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Vs58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." Can you please tell me why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus Tim?

John 10:30, "I and the Father, we are one." (One what Tim?) When Jesus said this the Jews at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Why Tim? At vs32 Jesus says, "I showed you many good works from the Fatherf for which of them are you stoning Me?" Vs33, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." (Did Jesus commit blasphemy Tim, yes or no?)

John 19:7, "The Jews answered Him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because (or why Tim?) He make Himself the Son of God." This is from the trial record of Jesus and Matthew 26::57-66 covers the trial extensively. In fact, so extensively the high priest Caiaphas at Matthew 26:63 says, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether (1) You are the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God?"

The high is asking Jesus to swear an oath to God that He is the Messiah the Son of God. At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "Yes, I am." At Matthew 26:65 the high priest "tore his robes, saying, He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have heard the blasphemy." He is deserving of death! (vs66).

So what was the blasphemy Jesus committed Tim? And is it blasphemy to claim to be the Messiah? Is it blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God?

You also brought up John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I." The Father is greater than Jesus in position, why is that? Because according to Philippians 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, vs6, who, ALTHOUGH He existed in the form of God, (although means "in spite of the fact" that Jesus existed as God) did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, vs7, "but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men"

This means Jesus Christ existed as God all along but when the Father sent Him into the world Jesus did not cling to His prerogatives of deity. In other words He did not use His Godly attributes to His advantage. He was truly a 100% human being that was dependent on His Father in all things just like were suppose to do.

Regarding the Trinity please look at it this way. There are billions of human beings. Our nature is that of human. You are the person of your father or mother. You are your own person and what you have in common as do I is we all have the same nature. Just like Gods nature is shared by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Gods nature is what separates us from all that is not God. A birds nature or an animals nature distinguishes them from each other. It's a universal law that a son shares the same nature as its father.

Oh yea, what about the Holy Spirit? Read the following:

"The Holy Spirit is said to have at least 73 personal characteristics in the Bible. The Bible does not say Paul 's spirit or anyone else has those characteristics.
…..Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit
…..The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

My concern is this contradiction that poses itself in the arguments you have put across.Truly if jesus said the Father is greater than I, then that means God is higher and this makes them unequal because God can command Jesus, and He did this by ordering the Son to Create, we see that from the book of John, everything was made possible through the word who is Jesus.
You have to understand that Jesus was already receiving orders from God and executing them even before the world was made. So justifying that the Son was less than God in human form is ruled out. God had an idea, and that idea was "Let us make man in our own image", this idea needs someone to execute, who is that? Jesus Christ. It is as simple as God drawing the plan and Jesus executing it.
Jesus denies being labeled as good
Jesus when they called him Good Teacher, rejected this glory and replied to them saying.... "I am not good, no one is good except my Father who is in heaven ".
I think when Jesus denied this glory, it made him less of a deity, that only The Father is capable of such benovelence that he deserves the title "good", hence God.

Title God goes to the God head being worshipped
When John after being shown what will happen before the end of the age, fell to the feet of the angel who shew him these things and wanted to worship him but the angel ordered him not to worship Jesus or the Spirit, He ordered him to worship the Father(God).

The Holy Spirit knows things the son does not know
The doctrine of the Holy Trinity makes God the highest followed by the Son and lastly the Spirit in position, this is very false because it is written that the Holy Spirit knows the depths of God, depths the Son does not know of for example the end of the world, this he replied when the disciples asked him when he will return and he said unto them "No one knows of that day, not me, not the angels but my Father who is in heaven". But the Holy Spirit is said to be able to search the depths of God, even secrets such as these, He is the witness of God on earth and He will be the prosecutor in that court that will determine the eternal fate of the souls of men.
The Holy Spirit is not a form that God chooses to reveal himself with on earth but he is a different person just like you and me, also the Father and the Son both personified during the transfiguration, Jesus apparel is seen being turned into snow white and the Father's terrifying voice is heard saying
"This is my beloved son with whom i am pleased with, listen to him".
Only God deserves the worship, it was all his plan to redeem mankind by sending his one and only begotten son. Jesus was executing God's plan as he has always done, be blessed.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus did not say that the Father was greater than He while He was in heaven.

It is written that He was in the form (morphe) of God and emptied Himself of the attributes of Deity. That word morphe indicates that He is the person of whose form He was in, according to Zodhiates, a primary Greek scholar (with a lexicon of the same name).

Jesus rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10), so it should be evident that He was equal to the Father after He rose from the dead.

Also, before He rose from the dead, He was equal to the Father as concerning His Deity (John 5:18).

As for Jesus asking "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God.", I believe that He was drawing out a response from the rich young ruler. He was in fact asking him if he acknowledged the truth that He was indeed God.

In Hebrews 1:6, Jesus is worshipped by all the angels.

In what verse is John ordered not to worship Jesus?

Jesus Himself accepted worship in John 9:37-38.

 

[justbyfaith]

Consider also Luke 17:11-19. Where were God's feet in that passage?

 

[p_rehbein]

The first thing I would like to do is correct you on what "you" think the Trinity is from what you stated. There is only "ONE" God who chose to manifest Himself as three persons that are identified in Scripture as God. They are not three beings of God or not three Gods because that would be "Polytheism."

Yup

 

[p_rehbein]

Regarding the Title of this OP:

The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is best described as the Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Get to the point of understanding this, and you will be close.........much closer to Truth.

 

[Ogom]

Luke 17:17

Jesus said, “Were not ten healed? Where are the nine? Can none be found to come back and give glory to God except this outsider?” Then he said to him, “Get up. On your way. Your faith has healed and saved you.”

 

[JaumeJ]

God is one. He did declare, "I will be what I will be." No one is able to explain fully what this declaration means nor can anyone define it.

He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet inseparable for God is One.

To all the children, please, wait until His day when He teaches all the mysteries give to us this age. Do not jump into human theories for they lead t total misunderstanding.

 

[TimothyGodIsLove]

Jesus did not say that the Father was greater than He while He was in heaven.

It is written that He was in the form (morphe) of God and emptied Himself of the attributes of Deity. That word morphe indicates that He is the person of whose form He was in, according to Zodhiates, a primary Greek scholar (with a lexicon of the same name).

Jesus rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10), so it should be evident that He was equal to the Father after He rose from the dead.

Also, before He rose from the dead, He was equal to the Father as concerning His Deity (John 5:18).

As for Jesus asking "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God.", I believe that He was drawing out a response from the rich young ruler. He was in fact asking him if he acknowledged the truth that He was indeed God.

In Hebrews 1:6, Jesus is worshipped by all the angels.

In what verse is John ordered not to worship Jesus?

Jesus Himself accepted worship in John 9:37-38.

God is described with the attribute omniscient, this term means God knows all things, any other persona tha does not have this ability cannot be entitled to that definition God.

jesus denies knowledge of the end of days.
When they asked him of the day when he will return, Jesus replied and said he did not know of the time, neither did the angels but God only. "No one knows of the day, not even the angels but my Father who is in heaven".
This proves Jesus is not omniscient and hence cannot be referred to as God. For it is written that God knows the end from the beginning, How is it that Jesus whom you call God, does not know of the day of the end but his Father who is in heaven? The doctrine is false, this is the eye opener. Jesus denied Godly attribute of omniscience.

Mathew 24:36
"No one knows of the day nor the hour, not even the angels but my Father who is in heaven". If Jesus is not all knowing which this verse suggests then he cannot be God. God the Father has the attribute though.