Saved by Water
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they were distinct while Christ was on earth in the flesh in order to show God to us he became one of us , subject to God that’s my belief also . The son of God is now our high priest forever
My point is this was the situation on earth
“Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:
( and so the solution )
and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.”
Isaiah 59:1-2, 8-12, 14-17, 19-20 KJV
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
Isaiah 9:6-8 KJV
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ….And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
John 1:1, 14 KJV
And After Jesus had preached the gospel and finished his work in the earth was about to be glorified in the spirit as he was in the beginning
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:4-5 KJV
we receive Jesus spirit now the children of Gods spirit because of what our God has done in Christ
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
Jesus is God in all his glory
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9
“And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”
Isaiah 40:5-8, 10-11 KJV
My point is this was the situation on earth
“Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.
We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:
( and so the solution )
and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.”
Isaiah 59:1-2, 8-12, 14-17, 19-20 KJV
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
Isaiah 9:6-8 KJV
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ….And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
John 1:1, 14 KJV
And After Jesus had preached the gospel and finished his work in the earth was about to be glorified in the spirit as he was in the beginning
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:4-5 KJV
we receive Jesus spirit now the children of Gods spirit because of what our God has done in Christ
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
Jesus is God in all his glory
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9
“And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”
Isaiah 40:5-8, 10-11 KJV
FreeGrace2 said:
My theology doesn't have God praying to Himself.
his question shows that you aren't paying attention. All 3 Persons are member of the Godhead. All are Deity. So your question is bogus.
Which should prove to you that your ideas are wrong. Individuals talk to each other. But when 1 person talks to themself, that indicates a mental problem.
My theology doesn't have God praying to Himself.
his question shows that you aren't paying attention. All 3 Persons are member of the Godhead. All are Deity. So your question is bogus.
Which should prove to you that your ideas are wrong. Individuals talk to each other. But when 1 person talks to themself, that indicates a mental problem.
FreeGrace2 said:
Heb 5:5 - In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
This verse proves they are 2 separate Persons.
I take distinct as separate. 3 separate Persons, all members of the Trinity.
Heb 5:5 - In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
This verse proves they are 2 separate Persons.
I take distinct as separate. 3 separate Persons, all members of the Trinity.
FreeGrace2 said:
Again, Jesus is the Man-God. That's not a Spirit.
I think you have no idea what Jesus was telling the woman at the well in that verse. And it doesn't support your theory in any way.
Again, Jesus is the Man-God. That's not a Spirit.
I think you have no idea what Jesus was telling the woman at the well in that verse. And it doesn't support your theory in any way.
FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you reject the idea that 3 separate Persons can have the same exact attributes?
Mormons also believe the earth circles around the sun. So what?
You reject something just because others believe it? The Mormons are wildly off track biblically. Ignore them.
My view aligns with evangelical Christianity. Unlike your view.
Can you show any evidence that your view is what evangelicals believe rather than mine?
Why do you reject the idea that 3 separate Persons can have the same exact attributes?
Mormons also believe the earth circles around the sun. So what?
You reject something just because others believe it? The Mormons are wildly off track biblically. Ignore them.
My view aligns with evangelical Christianity. Unlike your view.
Can you show any evidence that your view is what evangelicals believe rather than mine?
Note the first use of 'Spirit' is capitalized and refers to God the Father. But, the second use of 'spirit' isn't capitalized, and does not refer to any member of the Trinity. It refers to the human spirit. iow, in order to worship God, a person must have a living human spirit. When Adam rebelled his human spirit died "on that day". Upon saving faith in Christ, the spiritually dead human spirit is borh AGAIN or RE-generated. Made alive.
You can believe what you want. But if they are "the same person" then you have this "same person" talking to himself.
Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
2 Cor13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Matt 3:16,17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Luke 22:41,4
41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Mark 9:7 - Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
1 John 1:3 - We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. Notice “with the Father AND with His Son”
1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1 John 2:24 - As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. Again, notice the AND.
1 John 4:10 - This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14,15
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
1 John 5:5 - Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 5:9-11
9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
2 John 3 - Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.
2 John 9 - Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Jude 1 - Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
Rev 1:1 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 2:27 - that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
This is just some examples of very specific wording regarding the 3 distinct Persons of the Trinity.
One thing should be very clear. No one can be their own father or their own son. Much less both.
God is omnipotent and is not limited in what He does. But, He NEVER violates His own standards, integrity, etc. As such, God cannot sin. And, God cannot be irrational.
These verses, plus many more, show clearly that the Father and the Son are separate Persons who talk WITH EACH OTHER and not One who talks to Himself.
Try reading these verses while keeping in mind that those talking are the same person, and see how rational it is.
Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
2 Cor13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Matt 3:16,17
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Luke 22:41,4
41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Mark 9:7 - Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
1 John 1:3 - We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. Notice “with the Father AND with His Son”
1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1 John 2:24 - As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. Again, notice the AND.
1 John 4:10 - This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14,15
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
1 John 5:5 - Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 5:9-11
9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
2 John 3 - Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.
2 John 9 - Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Jude 1 - Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
Rev 1:1 - The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 2:27 - that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
This is just some examples of very specific wording regarding the 3 distinct Persons of the Trinity.
One thing should be very clear. No one can be their own father or their own son. Much less both.
God is omnipotent and is not limited in what He does. But, He NEVER violates His own standards, integrity, etc. As such, God cannot sin. And, God cannot be irrational.
These verses, plus many more, show clearly that the Father and the Son are separate Persons who talk WITH EACH OTHER and not One who talks to Himself.
Try reading these verses while keeping in mind that those talking are the same person, and see how rational it is.