Saved by Water

[justbyfaith]

@FreeGrace2,

I think that we should take up this conversation from the beginning of the following thread, as we are off-topic talking about the Trinity in this one.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

 

[justbyfaith]

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Jesus sometimes spoke from His humanity, and other times from His Deity. Not too hard to figure out.

The humanity of Jesus didn't know. But His Deity absolutely does know.

I haven't said otherwise.

I will say that the Son is 100% God and 100% Man...so His Deity and His humanity are inextricably intertwined.

So, while in His Spirit Jesus knows the day and the hour, the Son (who is both human and divine) does not; in His finite human brain.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course the point was that God the Father is a Spirit.

Thanks for affirming that.

You said previously that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit; and this is affirmed by holy scripture (John 7:39).

So, now, do you agree that they are the same Spirit? As there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)?

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they are separate, that is three Gods (Tritheism).

You keep saying that, and I keep denying that.

You just don't understand that all 3 distinct and separate members of the Trinity-Godhead, can have the same exact attributes of Deity.

So, that's what you need to digest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Note the first use of 'Spirit' is capitalized and refers to God the Father. But, the second use of 'spirit' isn't capitalized, and does not refer to any member of the Trinity. It refers to the human spirit. iow, in order to worship God, a person must have a living human spirit. When Adam rebelled his human spirit died "on that day". Upon saving faith in Christ, the spiritually dead human spirit is borh AGAIN or RE-generated. Made alive.

Of course the point was that God the Father is a Spirit.

No, that wasn't the point. Apparently my explanation of John 4:24 went right over your head. Did you follow any of it?

Thanks for affirming that.

I never denied that God the Father is Spirit.

Don't you remember my example of "light" to explain the Trinity?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Thank you for proving my point. Distinct means separate.

Not completely. Otherwise, you have three Gods (Tritheism).

From:

https://wikidiff.com/separate/distinct

Separate is a synonym of distinct.

As adjectives the difference between separate and distinct is that separate is apart from (the rest); not connected to or attached to (anything else) while distinct is very clear.

I rest my case. Separate and distinct are synonyms.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When the Holy Ghost makes intercession within us to the Father, it is God praying to God.

No, God doesn't have mental problems.

What applies effectively to men does not apply in the same way to God.

Your opinion does not count for anything. God created man in their image. God didn't create man to talk to himself.

So, even though God prays to God in Romans 8:26-27, He does not have a mental problem.

If He did pray to Himself, then yes, He would have mental problems.

All your protestations to the contrary doesn't make them true.

I shared a list of verses where members of the Trinity do talk to each other. Reading those verses with the idea that both members are One Person makes the verses absurd.

What benefit would God have in talking to Himself?

In the baptism of Jesus, explain how Jesus could be in the water AND at the same time up in the sky talking to Himself in the water.

Or on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus on the mount, and Himself up in the sky.

I'm amazed that you don't see that total absurdity in it.

 

[justbyfaith]

You keep saying that, and I keep denying that.

You just don't understand that all 3 distinct and separate members of the Trinity-Godhead, can have the same exact attributes of Deity.

So, that's what you need to digest.

You are a Tritheist; no matter how much you try to deny that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will say that the Son is 100% God and 100% Man...so His Deity and His humanity are inextricably intertwined.

So, while in His Spirit Jesus knows the day and the hour, the Son (who is both human and divine) does not; in His finite human brain.

I disagree. Only Jesus' humanity doesn't know the day or hour. His Deity does know.

 

[justbyfaith]

FreeGrace2 said:
Thank you for proving my point. Distinct means separate.

From:

https://wikidiff.com/separate/distinct

Separate is a synonym of distinct.

As adjectives the difference between separate and distinct is that separate is apart from (the rest); not connected to or attached to (anything else) while distinct is very clear.

I rest my case. Separate and distinct are synonyms.

They have different connotations even if they are synonyms; and therefore different meanings.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said previously that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit; and this is affirmed by holy scripture (John 7:39).

So, now, do you agree that they are the same Spirit? As there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)?

No, I do not. Again, the Trinity is composed of 3 distinct and separate Persons. Two of which are always Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are a Tritheist; no matter how much you try to deny that.

Only according to your faulty definitions.

Can you prove that your view is orthodox among evangelicals?

The Bible says that "God is One". I understand it correctly. It means One in essence, attributes. It doesn't mean One in Person.

But I'll wait for your evidence that your view is orthodox.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They have different connotations even if they are synonyms; and therefore different meanings.

They are synonyms. I didn't make that up. I'm going with the definition. You can parse it any way you feel the need to.

I'm just interested in whatever evidence you have that shows your view is orthodox among evangelicals.

You're very close to the "Jesus Only" movement. Not orthodox at all.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, God doesn't have mental problems.

I agree.

Because what is applicable to man is not applicable to God.

If He did pray to Himself, then yes, He would have mental problems.

All your protestations to the contrary doesn't make them true.

I have given scriptural support for the idea that the Holy Ghost prays within us to the Father.

If the Holy Ghost is God, then that is God praying to God (the Father).

No getting around it; it is as clear as day.

The only reason why you might not be able to see it: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

I shared a list of verses where members of the Trinity do talk to each other. Reading those verses with the idea that both members are One Person makes the verses absurd.

God is a Person; He is a singular Spirit.

The Father is a Spirit without flesh and inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15). The Son exists as a distinct Person dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7). But He is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11)

In the baptism of Jesus, explain how Jesus could be in the water AND at the same time up in the sky talking to Himself in the water.

How could Jesus be both on earth and in heaven in John 3:13?

I disagree. Only Jesus' humanity doesn't know the day or hour. His Deity does know.

The Son doesn't know (Mark 13:32).

And of course I agree with your assessment; since the Deity of Jesus is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

No, I do not. Again, the Trinity is composed of 3 distinct and separate Persons. Two of which are always Spirit.

So, there are two Spirits? that is contrary to scripture (Ephesians 4:4).

Can you prove that your view is orthodox among evangelicals?

My view in no way contradicts any of the Trinitarian creeds; while I believe that your view does contradict them.

I'm just interested in whatever evidence you have that shows your view is orthodox among evangelicals.

Go to the thread in question and I believe that you will see that my view is biblical and therefore orthodox.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

 

[justbyfaith]

They are synonyms. I didn't make that up. I'm going with the definition.

When it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, "distinct" and "separate" have two entirely different meanings.

"distinct" carries a different connotation than "separate".

 

[justbyfaith]

You would do well to believe in one God (James 2:19).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because what is applicable to man is not applicable to God.

This is basically saying that God can act crazy.

I have given scriptural support for the idea that the Holy Ghost prays within us to the Father.[/QJOTE]
And He's NOT talking to Himself.

If the Holy Ghost is God, then that is God praying to God (the Father).

Sure. Another member of the Trinity.

No getting around it; it is as clear as day.

I think so.

God is a Person; He is a singular Spirit.

You don't grasp the Trinity. 3 distinct and separate Persons, all with the same attributes and characteristics.

How could Jesus be both on earth and in heaven in John 3:13?

No, you explain how Jesus could be in the water for His baptism and in the sky, since you believe He was talking to Himself.

The Son doesn't know (Mark 13:32).

The humanity of the Son doesn't know. The Deity Son does know.

And of course I agree with your assessment; since the Deity of Jesus is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

I don't agree with your statement.

So, there are two Spirits? that is contrary to scripture (Ephesians 4:4).

Not if you only understood the Trinity and function and ministry of each.

My view in no way contradicts any of the Trinitarian creeds; while I believe that your view does contradict them.

I didn't ask this. I asked for evidence that orthodox evangelicalism aligns with your view, if it does.

Go to the thread in question and I believe that you will see that my view is biblical and therefore orthodox.

I've seen your view and have been debating it for days now. It is neither biblical nor orthodox.

Is the "Jesus Only" movement orthodox?

 

[FreeGrace2]

When it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, "distinct" and "separate" have two entirely different meanings.

This would be your opinion only.

"distinct" carries a different connotation than "separate".

No, words mean the same thing. But, go ahead and prove your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You would do well to believe in one God (James 2:19).

I do. You would do well to properly understand the Trinity.

As it is, you have God talking to Himself.

And you haven't explained how Jesus can be in the water and sky at the same time, or on the mountain and in the sky at the same time, or in the Garden asking Himself "not My will, but Yours".

Your view makes no sense.

What does make sense is that the 3 separate Persons all have the same attributes and characteristics. That's what is meant by "One'.

One in essence. That explains what you can't.

 

[justbyfaith]

@FreeGrace2,

You are obviously beyond hope.

Very likely because you never received baptism in Jesus' Name (see Luke 7:29-30).

I will not go so far as to judge your salvation...I will allow for the fact that I may be wrong concerning Acts 2:38 salvation.

But the fact that you judge me to be some sort of heretic,

1) puts me in the same company with Paul the apostle (Acts 24:14);

2) means that you will be judged accordingly (Luke 6:37); and,

3) puts you outside of the realm of sound doctrine; since what I am preaching is sound doctrine and your rejection of it is therefore a rejection of sound doctrine. Because I believe that God gave the following scriptures to me: John 15:20, 1 John 4:6.

But if you want to debate the Trinity further, I would suggest debating it from the beginning of the following thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-the-trinity-as-a-doctrine.201406/

As we are in danger of hijacking this one since the subject of this thread is whether or not baptism has the power to save a man.