How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[ewq1938]

DT.....a little friendly advice:
Try handling the Scripture more like a scalpel instead of a blunt instrument. You are just not making a lot of headway there buddy....

Take your own advice. It doesn't apply to David.

 

[GaryA]

DT.....a little friendly advice:
Try handling the Scripture more like a scalpel instead of a blunt instrument. You are just not making a lot of headway there buddy....

Of course, you have to know how to handle a scalpel - or the consequences can be disastrous...

 

[GaryA]

Of course, you have to know how to handle a scalpel - or the consequences can be disastrous...

"A scalpel in the hand of the unskilled is worse than a blunt instrument." - Contemplations 7:14

 

[GaryA]

 

[ewq1938]

Of course, you have to know how to handle a scalpel - or the consequences can be disastrous...

Agreed.

Not that it is in any way wise to take a scalpel to scripture! What a terrible analogy we were presented with.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Well, the following IS a word from scripture:


"orthotoméō (from temnō, "to cut" and 3717 /orthós, "straight") – properly, cut straight (on a straight line), i.e. "rightly divide" (correctly apportion)."


[bold and underline mine]

 

[ewq1938]

^ Well, the following IS a word from scripture:

And that is fully irrelevant and off topic to idea of actually cutting scripture up...which false doctrines do all time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ One could carefully consider what "correctly apportion" means, however (which does pertain to our present convo ).







[many folks just apply passages "willy-nilly" and blur them all together into one big mish-mash of mush...]

 

[GaryA]

Agreed.

Not that it is in any way wise to take a scalpel to scripture! What a terrible analogy we were presented with.

I was thinking that he meant it as scripture being the scalpel rather than applying a scalpel to scripture.

 

[GaryA]

And that is fully irrelevant and off topic to idea of actually cutting scripture up...which false doctrines do all time.

Of course, it is true that scripture "gets cut up" (cherry-picked) quite often...

 

[ewq1938]

Of course, it is true that scripture "gets cut up" (cherry-picked) quite often...

Well, even using scripture as a scalpel is still a bad idea. Only God should use scripture in such a way.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I was thinking that he meant it as scripture being the scalpel rather than applying a scalpel to scripture.

Ah... like this:

"17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. " Ephesians 6:17 ["take [imperative (command)]"]





[instead of this: "bludgeoning with a mallot [of 'out-of-context-verses']" ]

 

[Absolutely]

How can the harvest of the earth be equivalent to the Rapture when it is described in terms of judgment and wrath? The winepress of the wrath of God!

SO NOTE CAREFULLY ALL WHO ARE STUMBLING OVER THE RAPTURE (REV 14)
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Three harvests in rev 14.

You got the 3rd one correct

 

[Absolutely]

Ah... like this:

"17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. " Ephesians 6:17 ["take [imperative (command)]"]





[instead of this: "bludgeoning with a mallot [of 'out-of-context-verses']" ]

next try asking him a question.

What an adventure that is.

 

[Absolutely]

I disagree with that and for good reasons.

What Jesus describes in Matthew 13:39-43 (and repeated in Matthew 24) is what Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10:

Matt. 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matt. 13:39-43
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt. 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
...
Matt. 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1 Thess. 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

See, it's very simple as I explained to @Absolutely , who does seem to understand that the Harvest of the Earth is a description of the rapture, but like you, he has incorrectly placed the harvest/rapture pre-trib, a gross error that disregards scripture. Please examine the color-coded verses above. I can keep going with even more verses, but this should be enough for the honest Bible studier.

You post 2 verses having the gathering AFTER the trib from heaven and heavens.

Psssst...the UTTERMOST PART OF EARTH IS THE ATMOSPHERE....yep...AHEM ....heaven.
Zec 2:6
for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord
Daniel 11:4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven
Daniel 8:8
Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Jeremiah 49:36
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven,

You post two scripture references of gatherings in heaven and then try to make that into the rapture ,which is a gathering of the earth ,and those under the Earth the dead in Christ.
then try to reframe scripture to suit your Doctrine.
Then you post verses in 1st Thessalonians 1 that have Jesus glorified at the second coming. Of course he is why would he not be glorified by those that believe. Pretty sure that proves absolutely nothing in trying to defend a post-trib rapture.
In fact you have helped me prove that the Rapture is pre-trib,and that there cannot be a post-trib rapture .
it's completely wrong, it doesn't fit ,you can't make it fit. ....and you guys are proving it over and over and over.
Thanks for the pretrib verses.

""""Absolutely, who does seem to understand that the Harvest of the Earth is a description of the rapture, but like you, he has incorrectly placed the harvest/rapture pre-trib, a gross error that disregards scripture."""

Nope, i just threw a monkey wrench into your ONLY VERSE.

You never had but one verse to begin with ,and I shot that down many many years ago, because it says Angels gather from Heaven not earth and it's angels that do the Gathering not Jesus

 

[Absolutely]

post 2355 is. @ runningman.

5 minute rule prevents most edits

 

[cv5]

Agreed.

Not that it is in any way wise to take a scalpel to scripture! What a terrible analogy we were presented with.

"handling the Scripture more like a scalpel"
I think you bungled the punt there buddy....

 

[DavidTree]

DT.....a little friendly advice:
Try handling the Scripture more like a scalpel instead of a blunt instrument. You are just not making a lot of headway there buddy....

Good Morning, just pointing to those Letters as each one certifies who are Christ's 'elect'.

Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’ ”

6Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said.
7And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
8I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
Luke 18

 

[DavidTree]

But not in Revelation 14. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the main harvest which takes place long before Revelation 14.

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

There does not exist in Scripture a "pre-trib" rapture.

If you find one - please let me know = PEACE

 

[Runningman]

You post 2 verses having the gathering AFTER the trib from heaven and heavens.

Psssst...the UTTERMOST PART OF EARTH IS THE ATMOSPHERE....yep...AHEM ....heaven.
Zec 2:6
for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord
Daniel 11:4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven
Daniel 8:8
Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Jeremiah 49:36
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven,

You post two scripture references of gatherings in heaven and then try to make that into the rapture ,which is a gathering of the earth ,and those under the Earth the dead in Christ.
then try to reframe scripture to suit your Doctrine.
Then you post verses in 1st Thessalonians 1 that have Jesus glorified at the second coming. Of course he is why would he not be glorified by those that believe. Pretty sure that proves absolutely nothing in trying to defend a post-trib rapture.
In fact you have helped me prove that the Rapture is pre-trib,and that there cannot be a post-trib rapture .
it's completely wrong, it doesn't fit ,you can't make it fit. ....and you guys are proving it over and over and over.
Thanks for the pretrib verses.

""""Absolutely, who does seem to understand that the Harvest of the Earth is a description of the rapture, but like you, he has incorrectly placed the harvest/rapture pre-trib, a gross error that disregards scripture."""

Nope, i just threw a monkey wrench into your ONLY VERSE.

You never had but one verse to begin with ,and I shot that down many many years ago, because it says Angels gather from Heaven not earth and it's angels that do the Gathering not Jesus

I don't know why you insist on making four winds refer exclusively to the heavens (Earth's atmosphere) when there are many verses that use it in context of Earth.

Ezekiel 37:9
Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’”

Mark 13:27
And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

The point you're trying to prove doesn't fit the context. For one, the majority of people aren't going to be in the Earth's atmosphere during the post-trib rapture so the "four winds" is not where they are gathered from, but rather where they are gathered to.

Notice, gathered from earth to heaven.
Mark 13:27
And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.