Be Perfect As Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect.

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#41
While on Earth, Jesus preached the Law of Moses and after His resurrection He preached the gospel of grace, through the apostle Paul.
This is incorrect. Jesus never preached "the Law of Moses". He always preached the Gospel, even prior to His resurrection: And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as He [Christ] taught the people in the temple, and preached the Gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders... (Luke 20:1)
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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#42
This is incorrect. Jesus never preached "the Law of Moses". He always preached the Gospel, even prior to His resurrection: And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as He [Christ] taught the people in the temple, and preached the Gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders... (Luke 20:1)
At the very least, Jesus said that we will be rewarded if we preach the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-20).

He came to "magnify the law and make it honourable" (Isaiah 42:21)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,672
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#43
He came to "magnify the law and make it honourable" (Isaiah 42:21)
Not by preaching the Law but by FULFILLING it. And then setting it aside. When something is fulfilled, it is no longer necessary. Christ always pointed to HIMSELF, and to nothing else.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#44
This is incorrect. Jesus never preached "the Law of Moses". He always preached the Gospel, even prior to His resurrection: And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as He [Christ] taught the people in the temple, and preached the Gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders... (Luke 20:1)
Hi Nehemiah, here is the opinion of a Bible interpreter:


Author: Ron Graham


Did Jesus Preach the Law of Moses?
—Or did he preach the gospel?

This lesson examines an interpretation of the scriptures whereby the teachings of Jesus are regarded as exposition of the Law and the prophets rather than of the gospel. The idea is that Jesus preached a true interpretation of the law of Moses to show the Jews how to keep the law from the heart rather than legalistically and traditionally as they were doing. In this lesson we question whether this is a correct view of Christ's earthly ministry.

1 Jesus Critical of the Lawyers
It is correct that Jesus criticised the scribes and teachers for their handling of the law. For example...
  • They commanded things the law did not command, adding their own traditions (Mark 7:1-23)
  • They practised the law to be seen and applauded by men (Matt 6:5-18).
  • They were ignorant of the Scriptures (Matthew 22:23-33)
  • They neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy and faith (Matthew 23:23-24).
  • The whole of Matthew 23 is a sermon condemning the scribes and Pharisees who sat in Moses's seat.
2 Encouragement to Keep the Law
It is correct that Jesus encouraged people to keep the law. For example...
  • He made it clear that the law was still in force (Matthew 5:17-20).
  • He actually commanded people to keep the law (Luke 17:12-14, Mark 10:17-19, John 8:3-7).
  • He observed the law himself (Galatians 4:4, Psalms 40:7-9, Hebrews 10:7).
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#45
If no human being can be perfect, why did Jesus tell His disciples to be perfect?
I believe you are referring to Matthew 5:48 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

While perfect is a good translation for the word "perfect", it actually literally means complete, mature. If you like to read the Strong's concordance (if you don't I highly recommend it) then you can look it up as G5046 teleios. For your convenience, I linked to Bible Hub's Strong's Greek Concordance.

We can examine how perfect is used in different ways and contexts.

Some examples:

They translated the same word used for perfect in Matt 5:48 to be "men" in 1 Cor. 14:20. The goal being to convey the idea of spiritual maturity, not literal sinless perfection.
1 Corinthians 14:20
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Here's another example:
Hebrews 5:14
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

And there are numerous other examples. We can test that those who are allegedly "men" and of "full age" are not actually perfect in the sense that they are flawless because people keep sinning. It's safe to interpret what Jesus said in Matt. 5:48 as complete, spiritually mature. The complete and spiritually mature person confesses his sins to God when they sin.

Here's an example of how spiritually mature people are not actually perfect, evidenced by the fact their spiritual progression can retrograde.
Hebrews 5:12
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,672
13,073
113
#46
Encouragement to Keep the Law
Until the crucifixion, the Law of Moses was fully in effect in Israel. Since Jesus of Nazareth was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, He Himself kept the Law perfectly (but according to divine perfection, not Pharisaical perfection). Therefore He encouraged the Jews to keep the Law properly and in the spirit (not merely in the letter). But that did not in any way affect the preaching of the Gospel, which is justification by grace through faith, not by Torah observance. See many of the incidents in the life of Christ (and take Zacchaeus as an example). But the day Christ died He said "It is finished!" and the temple veil was torn in two from top to bottom. That signified that that Law of Moses had come to an end.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
83
#47
I believe you are referring to Matthew 5:48 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

While perfect is a good translation for the word "perfect", it actually literally means complete, mature. If you like to read the Strong's concordance (if you don't I highly recommend it) then you can look it up as G5046 teleios. For your convenience, I linked to Bible Hub's Strong's Greek Concordance.

We can examine how perfect is used in different ways and contexts.

Some examples:

They translated the same word used for perfect in Matt 5:48 to be "men" in 1 Cor. 14:20. The goal being to convey the idea of spiritual maturity, not literal sinless perfection.
1 Corinthians 14:20
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Here's another example:
Hebrews 5:14
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

And there are numerous other examples. We can test that those who are allegedly "men" and of "full age" are not actually perfect in the sense that they are flawless because people keep sinning. It's safe to interpret what Jesus said in Matt. 5:48 as complete, spiritually mature. The complete and spiritually mature person confesses his sins to God when they sin.

Here's an example of how spiritually mature people are not actually perfect, evidenced by the fact their spiritual progression can retrograde.
Hebrews 5:12
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-doctrine-of-entire-sanctification.202171/
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
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#48
I believe you are referring to Matthew 5:48 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

While perfect is a good translation for the word "perfect", it actually literally means complete, mature. If you like to read the Strong's concordance (if you don't I highly recommend it) then you can look it up as G5046 teleios. For your convenience, I linked to Bible Hub's Strong's Greek Concordance.

We can examine how perfect is used in different ways and contexts.
Thanks, Runningman, I'll do it tomorrow. I'm too tired and busy now.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
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#49
Until the crucifixion, the Law of Moses was fully in effect in Israel. Since Jesus of Nazareth was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, He Himself kept the Law perfectly (but according to divine perfection, not Pharisaical perfection). Therefore He encouraged the Jews to keep the Law properly and in the spirit (not merely in the letter). But that did not in any way affect the preaching of the Gospel, which is justification by grace through faith, not by Torah observance. See many of the incidents in the life of Christ (and take Zacchaeus as an example). But the day Christ died He said "It is finished!" and the temple veil was torn in two from top to bottom. That signified that that Law of Moses had come to an end.
I agree with almost everything. I'll respond more completely to your post tomorrow.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,426
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#50
At the very least, Jesus said that we will be rewarded if we preach the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-20).

He came to "magnify the law and make it honourable" (Isaiah 42:21)
The law of Moses had commands using thing of the flesh to explain things of the spirit. They were told to cut flesh to reflect belonging to Christ. It was of God they were told that, but Christ brought in the new covenant that used the heart of man to hear the voice of the Lord. Christ said he did not change one thing of the law of Moses, the spirit of the law was not changed with the new covenant but we are to listen to God's commands through our heart, now.

Christ is teaching us how to live in the kingdom of heaven. If Christ was teaching how to play golf we would know Christ wouldn't teach how not to play well, but give examples of perfection as we train. Christ says to be perfect, but we are to know all that Christ says about this and not blind ourselves to His word. Christ says we are to repent---in other words aim for perfection. We are not to want a sinful life if we want to live in the kingdom of heaven. We must choose between the world's laws and heavenly laws.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#51
The law of Moses had commands using thing of the flesh to explain things of the spirit. They were told to cut flesh to reflect belonging to Christ.
Circumcision was not of Moses but of the patriarchs (John 7:22).
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#52
Not by preaching the Law but by FULFILLING it. And then setting it aside. When something is fulfilled, it is no longer necessary. Christ always pointed to HIMSELF, and to nothing else.
Christ did not preach against the spirit of the law, Christ did not preach we must ignore God as we are instructed how to lie. Christ preached living in the kingdom of heaven, he preached it was here in our hearts. We cannot have disobedience to law in our hearts and also Christ in our hearts.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,672
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#53
Christ did not preach against the spirit of the law, Christ did not preach we must ignore God as we are instructed how to lie. Christ preached living in the kingdom of heaven, he preached it was here in our hearts. We cannot have disobedience to law in our hearts and also Christ in our hearts.
You have gone off on a tangent again. The OP said that Christ preached the Law of Moses, which is completely false. I posted the actual verse which said that Christ preached the Gospel. Now you come along and talk about ignoring God. So who is ignoring God? The one who claims that Christ preached the Law of Moses, or the one who says that Christ preached the Gospel?

Christ came to fulfill the Law and to then make it obsolete. And that is exactly what He did. So why would He violate His own plan to establish the New Covenant?
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#54
The OP said that Christ preached the Law of Moses, which is completely false.
Christ at the very least told us that we would be rewarded for preaching the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-20).

He came to "magnify the law and make it honourable" (Isaiah 42:21).
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Pacific NW USA
#55
If no human being can be perfect, why did Jesus tell His disciples to be perfect?
Words mean what they mean in context. In this context "perfect" is not used in the sense of "sinless perfection," since nobody can be sinless. And so, it is a call to "straighten up," or to "properly conform." In other words, correct what is crooked. In no way does it mean "become sinless."
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#56
Words mean what they mean in context. In this context "perfect" is not used in the sense of "sinless perfection," since nobody can be sinless. And so, it is a call to "straighten up," or to "properly conform." In other words, correct what is crooked. In no way does it mean "become sinless."
In the context of Matthew 5:48, Jesus is calling on believers to perfectly love their enemies.

This is doable for us as Christians if we have the Holy Spirit (see Romans 5:5; Colossians 3:14).
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#57
Until the crucifixion, the Law of Moses was fully in effect in Israel. Since Jesus of Nazareth was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, He Himself kept the Law perfectly (but according to divine perfection, not Pharisaical perfection). Therefore He encouraged the Jews to keep the Law properly and in the spirit (not merely in the letter). But that did not in any way affect the preaching of the Gospel, which is justification by grace through faith, not by Torah observance. See many of the incidents in the life of Christ (and take Zacchaeus as an example). But the day Christ died He said "It is finished!" and the temple veil was torn in two from top to bottom. That signified that that Law of Moses had come to an end.
I agree with everything except the fourth paragraph ( "... but that did not in any way affect the preaching of the Gospel, which is justification by grace through faith")

The rich young ruler asked Jesus: "what shall I do so that I may inherit eternal life?”

Jesus said "keep the commandments"; He didn't say salvation would be by grace through faith.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#59
You have gone off on a tangent again. The OP said that Christ preached the Law of Moses, which is completely false. I posted the actual verse which said that Christ preached the Gospel. Now you come along and talk about ignoring God. So who is ignoring God? The one who claims that Christ preached the Law of Moses, or the one who says that Christ preached the Gospel?

Christ came to fulfill the Law and to then make it obsolete. And that is exactly what He did. So why would He violate His own plan to establish the New Covenant?
You kee;p preaching against the "law', and that is not right. You are so correct that Christ preached the spirit of the law, not the law of Moses. Christ taught what the law of Moses was like in God's eyes when Christ said "you have been told" and "but I tell you".
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,672
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#60
You kee;p preaching against the "law', and that is not right.
How can I be preaching "against the Law" when I already said that (1) Christ obeyed the Law perfectly, (2) He admonished the Jews to obey the Law properly (and not according to the traditions of men), and (3) He FULFILLED the Law? The Law was effective only until the crucifixion of Christ. But you are simply unable to see this. Therefore you need to spend a lot of time in the epistle to the Hebrews.