Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

[Jocund]

God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul.

There are New Testament commandments. Clearly, followers of the covenant of the New Testament are obliged to follow the commandments of the New Testament. One in Christ is obliged to fulfil the law of Christ. Followers of Christ are not lawless nor without commandments.

I don't see the benefit in avoiding the clear and explicit passages from Paul simply because it contradicts an erroneously built-up understanding. A note that Paul may be misunderstood is not permission to disregard what Paul has said. There are clear exegesic models that allow all of scripture, including Paul's words, to work together without contradiction. We should be investigating these models exclusively and then create arguments in favour of the model or models we find most compelling. Rejecting select passages simply because they can't fit into our model is the wrong approach.

 

[BroTan]

There are New Testament commandments. Clearly, followers of the covenant of the New Testament are obliged to follow the commandments of the New Testament. One in Christ is obliged to fulfil the law of Christ. Followers of Christ are not lawless nor without commandments.

I don't see the benefit in avoiding the clear and explicit passages from Paul simply because it contradicts an erroneously built-up understanding. A note that Paul may be misunderstood is not permission to disregard what Paul has said. There are clear exegesic models that allow all of scripture, including Paul's words, to work together without contradiction. We should be investigating these models exclusively and then create arguments in favour of the model or models we find most compelling. Rejecting select passages simply because they can't fit into our model is the wrong approach.

Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! Remember that it was Christ: (1Peter:2: 22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Jesus did no sin. But what is sin? (1John:3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. So every time you break (transgress) one of God’s commandments you have committed sin. And one of those commandments is to: (Ex.20:8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. That’s why Jesus went to church on the seventh day.

Just like it’s a sin to steal, kill, and commit adultery and so-forth. This is the day He would naturally have observed, because He originally made the Sabbath by resting and ordained that it be kept holy from that time forward. I’ve heard it said that you can praise the Lord any day and every day. Sure you can and you are supposed to. But you are commanded to set aside one day of the week that the Lord blessed, sanctified and made holy and that day is Saturday.

 

[BroTan]

1) We are regenerated and renewed "not by works of righteousness which we have done";

and,

2) The sabbath day law was a type of what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 11:28-30. It was merely a shadow of the real substance; which is Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).

Again you are not reading Paul writing right, . In the Leviticus, 23rd Chapter the sabbath day and the High Holy Days which begin I believe on the new moon. Are the feast of the Lord's. These days are to be observe in their season. In Colossians 2:16-17, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. These feast days are the plans of God, they represent the future, with example from the past. All Holy Days are not to eat or drink, such as the atonement, but still to be observe. So this is actually what a person would say to someone who do not keep these feast day of the Lord, if they were judging them on those High and Holy Sabbath days, they were keeping. They would quoted Colossians 2: 16-17. So if you keep the first day of the week, Sunday, then it makes no sense to use this verse. You cannot worship other days that’s not written in the Bible to do, and then use the Bible to justify it. So if you keep another day thats not written in the Bible, then you are doing something on your own, thus it would really be contradictorily.

Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So if you keep the first day of the week, Sunday, then it makes no sense to use this verse. You cannot worship other days that’s not written in the Bible to do, and then use the Bible to justify it. So if you keep another day thats not written in the Bible, then you are doing something on your own, thus it would really be contradictorily.

This a rather convoluted and confusing. So are you objecting to the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- as a day not sanctioned by Christ and maintained by the apostles? If so kindly go back to the New Testament and see why the first day of the week has been set aside for Christian worship and rest. This was not an arbitrary decision, but one with the full approval of Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Now any Christian in their right mind wouldn’t dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! Remember that it was Christ: (1Peter:2: 22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Jesus did no sin. But what is sin? (1John:3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. So every time you break (transgress) one of God’s commandments you have committed sin. And one of those commandments is to: (Ex.20:8) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. That’s why Jesus went to church on the seventh day.

Just like it’s a sin to steal, kill, and commit adultery and so-forth. This is the day He would naturally have observed, because He originally made the Sabbath by resting and ordained that it be kept holy from that time forward. I’ve heard it said that you can praise the Lord any day and every day. Sure you can and you are supposed to. But you are commanded to set aside one day of the week that the Lord blessed, sanctified and made holy and that day is Saturday.

How do you account for the fact that Jesus broke the letter of the sabbath day laws in His ministry (John 5:16-18)?

The sabbath day law is a type and a shadow (Colossians 2:16-17) that is fulfilled by what Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30.

 

[Blik]

There are New Testament commandments. Clearly, followers of the covenant of the New Testament are obliged to follow the commandments of the New Testament. One in Christ is obliged to fulfil the law of Christ. Followers of Christ are not lawless nor without commandments. .

Paul explained Christ in minute detail, but it is the gospels that give the foundation of the kingdom of heaven that Christ was all about. Matt. 4:17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

We need to always relate every scripture to the basic scripture given by Christ and that is that through Christ we are forgiven our sins, and then we put Christ in our hearts and follow His righteousness, not our own. We are asked to try to do this, to repent of our sin which is another way of saying we are to try to be perfect.

 

[Jocund]

Paul explained Christ in minute detail, but it is the gospels that give the foundation of the kingdom of heaven that Christ was all about. Matt. 4:17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

We need to always relate every scripture to the basic scripture given by Christ and that is that through Christ we are forgiven our sins, and then we put Christ in our hearts and follow His righteousness, not our own. We are asked to try to do this, to repent of our sin which is another way of saying we are to try to be perfect.

The topic altogether is a great conversation piece. I think there is a lot of opportunity for perspective building.

There seems to be a few schools of thought so far:

1) All commandments apply
2) All commandments in the NT and only some in the OT apply (e.g. 10 commandments or other breakdowns of OT law into categories of does apply vs does not apply)
3) Only the NT commandments apply (and if any OT rules apply it would be only through the authority of NT commandments)
4) Only some of the NT commandments apply and it is important to breakdown NT commandments by applicability (i.e. OT law faded and some of the NT dialogue was precrucifixion discussion of OT law before it faded)
5) Only the OT commandments apply as the NT just paraphrases the OT

There are implications for each position. Position 1) requires the observation of many rules usually considered to not be very Christian, such as stoning to death rape victims if they didn't scream out loud enough, stoning adulterers to death, etc. Position 5 does not appear to be supported by scripture as Paul makes statements contrary to that position. I don't understand Position 2) as many people have different concepts of how that is supposed to work but I find it is more easily addressed in Position 3).

I'm still contemplating 3 vs 4. Much to reflect on.

 

[Blik]

The topic altogether is a great conversation piece. I think there is a lot of opportunity for perspective building.

There seems to be a few schools of thought so far:

1) All commandments apply
2) All commandments in the NT and only some in the OT apply (e.g. 10 commandments or other breakdowns of OT law into categories of does apply vs does not apply)
3) Only the NT commandments apply (and if any OT rules apply it would be only through the authority of NT commandments)
4) Only some of the NT commandments apply and it is important to breakdown NT commandments by applicability (i.e. OT law faded and some of the NT dialogue was precrucifixion discussion of OT law before it faded)
5) Only the OT commandments apply as the NT just paraphrases the OT

There are implications for each position. Position 1) requires the observation of many rules usually considered to not be very Christian, such as stoning to death rape victims if they didn't scream out loud enough, stoning adulterers to death, etc. Position 5 does not appear to be supported by scripture as Paul makes statements contrary to that position. I don't understand Position 2) as many people have different concepts of how that is supposed to work but I find it is more easily addressed in Position 3).

I'm still contemplating 3 vs 4. Much to reflect on.

How about solving all these questions by agreeing that ALL scripture is God speaking to us. God spoke to us in earthly terms in the OT, but we are to see the spirit of the Lord in the earthly type illustrations God gave in the OT. We are to see the punishment God gave people by stoning as we have death sentences in our system as God telling us what happens to our spirit when we sin. We are to see the dietary laws as laws for feeding our spirit clean information.

All scripture is truth, we have been given the new covenant to better see that truth.

 

[Jocund]

How about solving all these questions by agreeing that ALL scripture is God speaking to us. God spoke to us in earthly terms in the OT, but we are to see the spirit of the Lord in the earthly type illustrations God gave in the OT. We are to see the punishment God gave people by stoning as we have death sentences in our system as God telling us what happens to our spirit when we sin. We are to see the dietary laws as laws for feeding our spirit clean information.

All scripture is truth, we have been given the new covenant to better see that truth.

Holding the position that the OT laws don't apply is not to say that the OT was false or untruthful.

"We have death sentences in our system"

Not every legal system has the death sentence. And the ones that do usually don't apply the death sentence for adultery or not screaming loud enough while being raped as the OT did. Our legal systems and churches don't follow the provisions from the OT.

"Dietary laws"

We usually don't follow dietary laws of the OT either. And rightly so, as the new covenant has its own dietary rules.

"We are to see the dietary laws as laws for feeding our spirit clean information."

This type of thinking is an example of equivalency. Why not take it a step further and accept that the provisions of the NT are a functional equivalent to the requirements of the OT?

 

[Blik]

Holding the position that the OT laws don't apply is not to say that the OT was false or untruthful.
?

If you say that God only commanded you to cut foreskin when God told us to be circumcised, then I can agree with your reasoning. But God is spirit, not man. To be circumcised in God's eyes was not a surface thing. We are living in the days of the new covenant, our hearts have been made alive. We are to see circumcision through God's eyes, now. Now, cutting skin has nothing to do with circumcision, it is of the heart.

 

[BroTan]

How do you account for the fact that Jesus broke the letter of the sabbath day laws in His ministry (John 5:16-18)?

The sabbath day law is a type and a shadow (Colossians 2:16-17) that is fulfilled by what Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30.

How do you account for the fact that Jesus broke the letter of the sabbath day laws in His ministry (John 5:16-18)?

Jesus says in (Mark 2:27-28) (v.27) And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: Do we understand that, the Sabbath was made for us, not us for the Sabbath. (v.28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath. The Son of man (Jesus) is the Lord God of the seventh day Sabbath (Saturday).

So understand now, Jesus is Lord and High Priest. You can also do good deeds on the Sabbath day, for example. Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Another example Jesus did in Matthew 12: 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

I know if your vehicle broke down on the sabbath day and you stuck, you would want help as well.

The sabbath day law is a type and a shadow (Colossians 2:16-17) that is fulfilled by what Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30.

You are not rightfully dividing the word of truth here. The Sabbath we keep on the Seventh day of the week is not the same rest Jesus is talking about in Matthew 11: 28-30. The Sabbath day rest speak of another day that's in the future, when the whole earth is at rest, at the second coming of Jesus. Let's take a look at this in Isaiah 14: 3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, 4 that thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

Let's take another look at this in Revelation, so we can see this in the future. We will focus on Babylon, because we see Babylon being the oppressor have cease. And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Revelation 18:1-3)

So this in the future, maybe in this generation. So much more to this prophecy, none the less at the second coming of Jesus.

 

[BroTan]

This a rather convoluted and confusing. So are you objecting to the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- as a day not sanctioned by Christ and maintained by the apostles? If so kindly go back to the New Testament and see why the first day of the week has been set aside for Christian worship and rest. This was not an arbitrary decision, but one with the full approval of Christ.

Well...the Lord's day is at his second coming. Let's go to Revelation 1: 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

This is the Lord's day, John saw this.

As far as the Sabbath day, let's see if anything change after the death of Jesus. Now lets take a look at; (Acts 13:13-15, 42, 44) (v.13) Now when Paul and his company loosed from Pa’-phus, they came to Per’-ga in Pam-phyl’-I-a: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. (v.14) But when they departed from Per’-ga, they came to An’-ti-och in Pi-sid’-I-a, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. Paul went into the church (synagogue) on the sabbath day the seventh day not the first day (Sunday). (v.15) And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (v.42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

The Gentiles didn’t asked Paul to come preach us something different next Sunday. They wanted Paul to preach to them the same thing that he taught the Jews, the next sabbath. Even the Gentiles knew that if they were going to serve the same God that Paul and the Jews (Israelites) served that they would have to serve him on the day that God had set up. (v.42) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. Not the next Sunday but the next sabbath.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are not rightfully dividing the word of truth here.

Col 2:16, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17, Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Rightfully divide this word of holy scripture without denying the plain meaning of what the passage is saying.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well...the Lord's day is at his second coming.

No it is not. There is a world of difference between (1) the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week and (2) the Day of the LORD -- the Great Tribulation followed by the Second Coming of Christ. The very fact that John said that he was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day and met with Christ personally should have informed you that this has nothing to do with the day of the LORD. So kindly get acquainted with the day of the LORD.

 

[BroTan]

No it is not. There is a world of difference between (1) the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week and (2) the Day of the LORD -- the Great Tribulation followed by the Second Coming of Christ. The very fact that John said that he was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day and met with Christ personally should have informed you that this has nothing to do with the day of the LORD. So kindly get acquainted with the day of the LORD.

Amazing you couldn't see that, and you provided no scriptures or verses to all that you saying...smh. But let's allow Peter to confirm what John saw in Revelation 1: 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Let's see if apostle Peter is on one accord with John. Let's go into 2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now, let's go back to John in Revelation 6 and continue some of thing he saw on the Lords day. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So take a look at that, Peter and John are on accord, the sky is rolled back, the kings of the earth see God and looking to hide, etc... but let's see what else John wrote that Peter says. Let's go further in Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[BroTan]

Col 2:16, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17, Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Rightfully divide this word of holy scripture without denying the plain meaning of what the passage is saying.

Again.....In the Leviticus, 23rd Chapter the sabbath day and the High Holy Days which begin I believe on the new moon. Are the feast of the Lord's. These days are to be observe in their season. In Colossians 2:16-17, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. These feast days are the plans of God, they represent the future, with example from the past. All Holy Days are not to eat or drink, such as the atonement, but still to be observe. So this is actually what a person would say to someone who do not keep these feast day of the Lord, if they were judging them on those High and Holy Sabbath days, they were keeping. They would quoted Colossians 2: 16-17. So if you keep the first day of the week, Sunday, then it makes no sense to use this verse. You cannot worship other days that’s not written in the Bible to do, and then use the Bible to justify it. So if you keep another day thats not written in the Bible, then you are doing something on your own, thus it would really be contradictorily.


Just like it says in Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. That's right you have to have both. Paul said in (Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him; being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Yea, most people are talking about how they know God with their lips, but by they works they are doing something totally different. The Lord God commanded people to remember the Sabbath day (which is the seventh day of the week) to keep it holy.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Now, let's go back to John in Revelation 6 and continue some of thing he saw on the Lords day.

What he saw on the Lord's day is NOT the same thing as what will actually happen during the Day of the LORD. John was speaking of many future events, and not all those visions were given on that Lord's day either. Kindly go back to square one.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again.....In the Leviticus, 23rd Chapter the sabbath day and the High Holy Days which begin I believe on the new moon. Are the feast of the Lord's. These days are to be observe in their season. In Colossians 2:16-17, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. These feast days are the plans of God, they represent the future, with example from the past. All Holy Days are not to eat or drink, such as the atonement, but still to be observe. So this is actually what a person would say to someone who do not keep these feast day of the Lord, if they were judging them on those High and Holy Sabbath days, they were keeping. They would quoted Colossians 2: 16-17. So if you keep the first day of the week, Sunday, then it makes no sense to use this verse. You cannot worship other days that’s not written in the Bible to do, and then use the Bible to justify it. So if you keep another day thats not written in the Bible, then you are doing something on your own, thus it would really be contradictorily.


Just like it says in Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. That's right you have to have both. Paul said in (Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him; being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Yea, most people are talking about how they know God with their lips, but by they works they are doing something totally different. The Lord God commanded people to remember the Sabbath day (which is the seventh day of the week) to keep it holy.

No, it is saying that the feast days (and the sabbath) were a shadow or type of the reality; which is Christ.

You may be perfectly content to touch a shadow that is cast onto the ground by the form of Jesus Christ our Lord; I would prefer to touch Jesus Himself.

 

[Duckybill]

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

And that ain't good!

 

[justbyfaith]

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

And that ain't good!

And of course, that is speaking of those who seek to be justified by the law.

For those who know that they are justified through faith in the blood of Christ, the following is true.

Jas 1:25, But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.