Thats a shame you dont believe that friend, because scripture teaches that. You are selling the redemptive Death of Christ short of its achievement.
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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You dont get it, Israel Gods Elect is the Church, the Body of Christ. Its made up of all races of people/gentiles
It was enviable that we should clash brightfame 52. Are you a Calvinist and believe in Tulip ? As you have required Yes or No ?
Forgiven to make alive !
Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Who is it that hath been quickened ? Why its them only who has been forgiven of all their trespasses;Yes thats right, for they were not quickened to have their trespasses forgiven, but since they were already forgiven, they had to be quickened or made to live or made alive !
Now how and when were they forgiven, why it was at the Cross, where Christ was victorious over their sins and the law,where He made a show of them openly, of which they can never be charged against us or Him again, neither can they condemn us or Him again, and this goes for all transgressions, past, present and future, and so it behooves Christ as their Saviour to give unto them He died for, a communication of the Knowledge of the remission of their sins Lk 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Col 2:13-14
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Who is it that hath been quickened ? Why its them only who has been forgiven of all their trespasses;Yes thats right, for they were not quickened to have their trespasses forgiven, but since they were already forgiven, they had to be quickened or made to live or made alive !
Now how and when were they forgiven, why it was at the Cross, where Christ was victorious over their sins and the law,where He made a show of them openly, of which they can never be charged against us or Him again, neither can they condemn us or Him again, and this goes for all transgressions, past, present and future, and so it behooves Christ as their Saviour to give unto them He died for, a communication of the Knowledge of the remission of their sins Lk 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Yes or No ? Brightfame , how are ya ? Would you happen to be a Calvinist ? Maybe I'm not one of the chosen and shouldn't be asking. Seems to me I'm not a Calvinist by freewill.
I just wish Calvinists would come out front and state it . So those who are not Calvinists can see what we are dealing with . Instead of trying to corral us with a series of topics and reasons which ultimately
are no more the an endless cycle of redundancies which always returns the TULIP filter of Biblical interpretation.
are no more the an endless cycle of redundancies which always returns the TULIP filter of Biblical interpretation.
Accomplishments of Christ's Death for those He died for!
When we have been given a good understanding of the scripture by the Author of it, the Holy Spirit, who is promised to Christ's Redeemed Church, and promised to lead it [every member of it] into all Truth relevant for Faith and Practice Jn 16:13; 1 Jn 2:20,27, then that Christ did not lay down His Life for all men without exception, but for the Sheep Jn 10:11-15, it is clearly obvious by realizing the accomplishments and effects it gives and bestows upon them He surely died in behalf of, now understand this ye who are against Christ, all them Christ died for, tasted death for Heb 2:9, He offered Himself as a sacrifice for, for His Death, an one offering for their sins, and by this fact we shall know that it was not an offering for all men without exception, because all for whom this sacrifice was offered, are sanctified and perfected by it in God's Reckoning Heb 10:10,14, also having through it Justification from or remission of all sins, and also by this sacrifice, their sins and iniquities will never be remembered again in a manner of condemnation and eternal judgment, but that this is not true of all individuals without exception is evident from these scenarios yet imminent Matt 25:41; Rev 20:11-15
When we have been given a good understanding of the scripture by the Author of it, the Holy Spirit, who is promised to Christ's Redeemed Church, and promised to lead it [every member of it] into all Truth relevant for Faith and Practice Jn 16:13; 1 Jn 2:20,27, then that Christ did not lay down His Life for all men without exception, but for the Sheep Jn 10:11-15, it is clearly obvious by realizing the accomplishments and effects it gives and bestows upon them He surely died in behalf of, now understand this ye who are against Christ, all them Christ died for, tasted death for Heb 2:9, He offered Himself as a sacrifice for, for His Death, an one offering for their sins, and by this fact we shall know that it was not an offering for all men without exception, because all for whom this sacrifice was offered, are sanctified and perfected by it in God's Reckoning Heb 10:10,14, also having through it Justification from or remission of all sins, and also by this sacrifice, their sins and iniquities will never be remembered again in a manner of condemnation and eternal judgment, but that this is not true of all individuals without exception is evident from these scenarios yet imminent Matt 25:41; Rev 20:11-15
Everytime a Calvinist tries to explain their belief in TULIP it goes from simple to heady and ugly. Jesus becomes a respecter of persons . The Calvinist says, God chose. The Calvinist says, God chose me. But not others. Those he did not choose never had a chance because Christ only died for those whom He chose. This is looking through the teaching of Calvin. Further if you are chosen that's it no saying no. . God is going to give you repentance , faith and everything you need to be converted and one of His chosen. Because you have no freewill according to Calvin it is hopelessy bound and only God can change your mind. Which is where we differ . How God changes your mind. I went through the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the seventies , I lived on a discipleship Ranch . We loved The Lord , he was in the midst of the camp , we took a bus to church and worked throughout the community giving all our earnings to the Gospel for room and board. Our leadership were those whom God had set over our lives ( sovereignly as Calvinist like to say) " I will give them pastors after my heart who will feed them with knowledge and understanding". I walked the Gospel road in my twenties striving to be Christ's disciple . Then something happened , the Ranch had a Calvinist Pastor for a few months . That was all the enemy needed to split this church in two and end the revival . Those who went with Calvin began to buy books, lots and lots of books. After awhile all of them left and moved to town where they no longer were actively spreading the gospel but studying their theology. After all said one brother , how do I know if the person I am sharing the gospel with is one of those whom The Lord has died for ? I've experienced a church split over this . On this site I have seen this massive load dumped on new believers that they must get to this almost gnostic position of understanding . I spent 6 years trying to get an old friend out of this belief system . Didn't work. Too ingrained. Plain statements of scripture are only seen through the filter of TULIP . Which is not the Gospel. The Gospel is not TULIP. The Gospel is not everything in the Bible either. The Gospel is the preaching of Christs, death burial and resurrection. It is a message for the unbeliever like you were before you decided you were saved not by hearing and believing but by being chosen. It is not that difficult you don't need a lot of books. You don't need to know the deep things of God especially the teachings of John Calvin. If the Bible doesn't bring one to an abiding relationship with Jesus. As a branch , Vine relationship. We can spout theology til we are blue in the face. He that Has the Son Has Life and He that Has not the Son of God has not life. We aim to lead me to Christ . Faith in Christ . That is why the Gospel is the only message God has for an unbeliever until they believe. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God neither can He know them because they are spirtually discerned. I cannot hope to convince you to free yourself from your teachings.
God foreknew who would beieve in His Son. He said , Thy faith hath me thee whole. Not MY faith hath made thee whole. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. God is not going to send you out wondering whether or not He died for all men . Only those who believe the Gospel are saved . Those saved in the Old Covenant is a different issue. The Gospel is the power of
God unto Salvation . Paul said that this message the message of the preaching of the cross could be weakened by the "wisdom of words" emptyed , diluted of it's power and made void. Here is how God saves it is a given He knows who will trust Him from eternity ( foreknowledge) Jesus explained the ministry of the Holy Spirit , the one who draws us the one who convinces us of sin , righteousness , and judgement who leads us and guides us into all truth. We are born again by belief of the truth with Our faith . Not His. That does not negate the sovereignty of God nor the Grace of God. Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God. You must be born-again. At some point you confessed and believed . He was faithful and Just and forgave because you came to Him and He said he would not cast you out if you did that. Sure He drew , but you obeyed by believing the truth. He did not do that for you . You did that on your own. At somepoint you were influenced by Calvin and it was not longer the Gospel that saved you per se. But Jesus chose you. The Jesus that is a different Jesus who according to Calvin is not the God is light and in Him is no darkness at all but the one that foreordains the chosen to be saved and predestines others to the lake of fire. Sick. Calvin is sick. God is not a respecter of persons . He is impartial. He is merciful . How could He be Merciful , Love and all that if He was partial. Doesn't the Bible say He will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh . Why would He do that ? Why wouldn't He just pour out His Spirit on the Church ? Not all will be saved not because they were hopelessly bound but because they did not respond to the efforts or the light God gave them. This is not a weak message this Gospel it is the power of God unto salvation . Paul prayed that the eyes of your understanding would be enlighted and that you would know what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward those who believe. It is the same power that raised Christ from the dead , and gave Him a name above every name far above all principality and power and dominion . This is the power behind the message and to that the anointing of the Holy Spirit and The ministry of the Holy Spirit. I Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul declares the gospel to us. Like he says flat out Here it is Christ Died for our sins , he was buried , He rose the third day ( It is the power of God unto Salvation) It is the message God sent the church into the world with. Not a length exposition of being chosen Total inability limited atonement etc . God does it sure , He dies as the second Adam Representing as did Adam all of the creation of MAN . When One man fell all did Jesus came a the Son of Man to represent Man. When Satan killed a man upon whom he had no claim . He because for the first time a murderer by slaying an innocent man. He was judged at Calvary , Now according to Divine law He has no right to anyone or anything. Faith is the prerequisite of salvation, not election. Chew on that and get back with me.
God unto Salvation . Paul said that this message the message of the preaching of the cross could be weakened by the "wisdom of words" emptyed , diluted of it's power and made void. Here is how God saves it is a given He knows who will trust Him from eternity ( foreknowledge) Jesus explained the ministry of the Holy Spirit , the one who draws us the one who convinces us of sin , righteousness , and judgement who leads us and guides us into all truth. We are born again by belief of the truth with Our faith . Not His. That does not negate the sovereignty of God nor the Grace of God. Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God. You must be born-again. At some point you confessed and believed . He was faithful and Just and forgave because you came to Him and He said he would not cast you out if you did that. Sure He drew , but you obeyed by believing the truth. He did not do that for you . You did that on your own. At somepoint you were influenced by Calvin and it was not longer the Gospel that saved you per se. But Jesus chose you. The Jesus that is a different Jesus who according to Calvin is not the God is light and in Him is no darkness at all but the one that foreordains the chosen to be saved and predestines others to the lake of fire. Sick. Calvin is sick. God is not a respecter of persons . He is impartial. He is merciful . How could He be Merciful , Love and all that if He was partial. Doesn't the Bible say He will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh . Why would He do that ? Why wouldn't He just pour out His Spirit on the Church ? Not all will be saved not because they were hopelessly bound but because they did not respond to the efforts or the light God gave them. This is not a weak message this Gospel it is the power of God unto salvation . Paul prayed that the eyes of your understanding would be enlighted and that you would know what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward those who believe. It is the same power that raised Christ from the dead , and gave Him a name above every name far above all principality and power and dominion . This is the power behind the message and to that the anointing of the Holy Spirit and The ministry of the Holy Spirit. I Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul declares the gospel to us. Like he says flat out Here it is Christ Died for our sins , he was buried , He rose the third day ( It is the power of God unto Salvation) It is the message God sent the church into the world with. Not a length exposition of being chosen Total inability limited atonement etc . God does it sure , He dies as the second Adam Representing as did Adam all of the creation of MAN . When One man fell all did Jesus came a the Son of Man to represent Man. When Satan killed a man upon whom he had no claim . He because for the first time a murderer by slaying an innocent man. He was judged at Calvary , Now according to Divine law He has no right to anyone or anything. Faith is the prerequisite of salvation, not election. Chew on that and get back with me.
1 Cor. 10;32
King James Bible
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
I beg to disagree but this is off-topic.
Sanctification inwardly !
Heb 13:12
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
All for whom Christ died, by it [ His Death] it was to provide a inward sanctification as well, not only are they sanctified in the Divine Purpose of God as was Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
BTW this sanctification applies to all the foreknown People of God Rom 11:2; Rom 8:29, but His Death communicates an inward sanctification which is consistent with the sanctification in His Purpose, hence by His Blood / Death, all for whom He died has their conscious purged from dead works, to serve the Living God Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Notice what the Blood of Christ is said to do, to purge our conscience. The word purge is the word καθαρίζω and means:
I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
And the word conscience suneidésis:
the conscience, a persisting notion.
properly, joint-knowing, i.e. conscience which joins moral and spiritual consciousness as part of being created in the divine image. Accordingly, all people have this God-given capacity to know right from wrong because each is a free moral agent
The conscience is part of the inward man, and the blood of Christ is said to cleanse it.
Cleanse it from what ? Dead Works ! What are Dead Works ? Religious works performed by dead men, dead spiritually ! Its religion without God given Faith. Its not worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth as Per Jn 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Well, Christ's Blood provides God with those type of worshippers that God the Father seeketh such to Worship Him!
The Blood of Christ sets apart God's People experientially, from dead men religion which is Idolatry. It redeems them from a vain religious life received by tradition of our fathers 1 Pet 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Thats dead works also of Heb 9:14 this vain[devoid of truth] conversation received by tradition.
Now understand this, if each person for whom Christ died, shed His Blood, does not experience this conversion, this Sanctification from dead works, unto serving [worship] of the True and Living God, then His Blood has lost its Value and Purpose, it has miserably failed the Divine Purpose !
But I know that it will, to the Glory of God !
Heb 13:12
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
All for whom Christ died, by it [ His Death] it was to provide a inward sanctification as well, not only are they sanctified in the Divine Purpose of God as was Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
BTW this sanctification applies to all the foreknown People of God Rom 11:2; Rom 8:29, but His Death communicates an inward sanctification which is consistent with the sanctification in His Purpose, hence by His Blood / Death, all for whom He died has their conscious purged from dead works, to serve the Living God Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Notice what the Blood of Christ is said to do, to purge our conscience. The word purge is the word καθαρίζω and means:
I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
And the word conscience suneidésis:
the conscience, a persisting notion.
properly, joint-knowing, i.e. conscience which joins moral and spiritual consciousness as part of being created in the divine image. Accordingly, all people have this God-given capacity to know right from wrong because each is a free moral agent
The conscience is part of the inward man, and the blood of Christ is said to cleanse it.
Cleanse it from what ? Dead Works ! What are Dead Works ? Religious works performed by dead men, dead spiritually ! Its religion without God given Faith. Its not worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth as Per Jn 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Well, Christ's Blood provides God with those type of worshippers that God the Father seeketh such to Worship Him!
The Blood of Christ sets apart God's People experientially, from dead men religion which is Idolatry. It redeems them from a vain religious life received by tradition of our fathers 1 Pet 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Thats dead works also of Heb 9:14 this vain[devoid of truth] conversation received by tradition.
Now understand this, if each person for whom Christ died, shed His Blood, does not experience this conversion, this Sanctification from dead works, unto serving [worship] of the True and Living God, then His Blood has lost its Value and Purpose, it has miserably failed the Divine Purpose !
But I know that it will, to the Glory of God !
All for whom Christ died and rose again, all of them by the purpose of God, did exist in Him by Purpose and Representation, even when He sat down in heavenly places as Per Eph 2:6
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This even though they in and of themselves may not have yet been born sinners in the flesh and then afterwards been born again, none of that has to occur for them to be risen together with Christ. In fact the Resurrection of Christ from the dead was their First Resurrection Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection, or the chief one is that of Christ Himself from the dead as the Head of the Body, His Church Col 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Notice that this Resurrection constitutes them Priests of God, notice 1 Pet 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
And remember that these were those who had been begotten again how ? By the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This even though they in and of themselves may not have yet been born sinners in the flesh and then afterwards been born again, none of that has to occur for them to be risen together with Christ. In fact the Resurrection of Christ from the dead was their First Resurrection Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection, or the chief one is that of Christ Himself from the dead as the Head of the Body, His Church Col 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Notice that this Resurrection constitutes them Priests of God, notice 1 Pet 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
And remember that these were those who had been begotten again how ? By the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
That is really skewed amigo. It is John Calvin. Like I said TULIP is not the Gospel and the Gospel is not TULIP. Your theology leaves Christ without the ability the purge the heavenly things with His precious blood because according to your theology He didn't "Put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself". He had to die representing all men to become the second Adam and restore the lost dominion of the earth which Man gave to Satan. God would not forcefully remove that gift and take it back after he gave it to Adam . He doesn't roll like that. You see God loves free will . Whosover believes shall be saved . One sacrifice for all, whosoever, every man, the whole world . Impartial . He represented Man. Calvin was trippin on something now you have a different gospel and a different Jesus. Some kind of monster that selects some, and trashes others without giving them an impartial opportunity . Really sad that people know Jesus in such a fashion. He just isn't like that. Honestly , you can spout your theology until you are blue in face. All , whosoever , every man , the world world . All those words you must hate because they don' t say just me not them . So tripped out on being "chosen" over others . God doing everything for you . Heck you were never lost at all .
It makes them Rich !
2 Cor 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that or in order that ye through his poverty might be rich.
This is an express purpose of His Death, or His becoming poor [Phil 2:5-8] it makes those He died for become Rich [spiritually], which richness is the source of their Faith James 2:5
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
The poor in spirit become rich in Faith, because Christ was made poor for their sakes. The poor in spirit are heirs also stated here Matt 5:3
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That chosen poor that become rich in Faith are the Chosen of God here Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Being poor in spirit is one of the many spiritual blessings they get according to their choice in Christ !
So Christ died that those He died for might be made rich in Faith because they are joint heirs together with Him of God ! 247
2 Cor 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that or in order that ye through his poverty might be rich.
This is an express purpose of His Death, or His becoming poor [Phil 2:5-8] it makes those He died for become Rich [spiritually], which richness is the source of their Faith James 2:5
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
The poor in spirit become rich in Faith, because Christ was made poor for their sakes. The poor in spirit are heirs also stated here Matt 5:3
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That chosen poor that become rich in Faith are the Chosen of God here Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Being poor in spirit is one of the many spiritual blessings they get according to their choice in Christ !
So Christ died that those He died for might be made rich in Faith because they are joint heirs together with Him of God ! 247