He Who Spares His Rod Hates His Son

2ndTimothyGroup · Nov 25, 2021

It is absolutely incredible. I prefer "hard" copies of the text, but here is the online version:

The Book of Jubilees, Translated by RH Schodde, 1914 (thebookofenoch.info)

Mofastus · Nov 25, 2021

I know a lot I suppose about child abuse, I know the verses in scripture that people use to justify it. I can't say I will ever enjoy talking about it. I'm glad standard was used in this thread. A good family will have them and good parents will maintain those standards for the health of the family. Corporal punishment can be effective or destructive to any family, remorse shouldn't come from fear and anger, but from love and a gracious desire for right standing with in any family in the limitations and boundaries set. God chastens those He loves and provides an escape in temptations all of His own are met with. Standards are important, it allows us to stand, as well as take a stand in what is right against what is wrong. Scripture is full of these principles, love promotes forgiveness, fear and anger promote rebellion.

marciwhite · Dec 2, 2021

Mofastus said:

Its a sensitive subject for me. My parents were borderline abusive. I remember several hard spankings with a belt that left bruises when I was a child. The spare the rod, spoil the child language can be used to justify all kinds of terrible treatment for children. In my career as a nurse, I have seen more than one abused child at the hospital emergency room. Its heart breaking and something every parent needs to consider before they use physical discipline.

What I am not against is reasonable spanking given with a hand to a misbehaving child's rear end. My hubby and I have spanked. Although, it tends to be given rarely and only for really serious stuff. I am against the use of objects to discipline or "spank" children. If you must do it, do it with your hand. It limits the amount of force you can use. A child should also be clothed when they are spanked. Although, I admit my definition of "clothed" includes just their underwear so there is a bit more sting and maybe a little shame on the child's part.

Being a parent isn't easy at times and some parents really don't have good judgment and can lose control. These are the ones I worry about the most. I don't think the vast majority of parents set out to hurt a child.

TheIndianGirl · Dec 2, 2021

Spanking may have a quick effect on stopping a bad behavior, but overall there are more cons than pros especially with respect to the parent-child relationship. If kids are only spanked with the hand a few times, maybe they don't remember and it isn't a big deal. However, kids who are routinely spanked will have mental health, development, and trust issues later on. The repetitive spanking also shows that spanking is ineffective for certain children, especially stubborn children so other solutions must be found.

TheIndianGirl · Dec 2, 2021

Long-term effect of spanking is, at best the adult child will just conclude that their parents are imperfect/fallen people and will go ahead and forgive them. Rarely do they believe their parents did the right thing looking back, as they would have preferred that the parents found an alternative method in solving the problem. Especially now, there are a lot of medical/psychological studies available which say that spanking is not good, so they have even more "evidence" to support their views.

TheIndianGirl · Dec 2, 2021

Ephesians 6:4 AMP - "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to the point of resentment with demands that are trivial or unreasonable or humiliating or abusive; nor by showing favoritism or indifference to any of them], but bring them up [tenderly, with loving kindness] in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. "

marciwhite · Dec 3, 2021

TheIndianGirl said:

I acknowledge those studies and I don't have a problem with them. On the whole, I agree that parents should look towards alternative ways to discipline their children than spanking. Plus, there are some kids who can truly be raised without ever getting a spanking. Its complicated though. I've often wondered if the people who conduct those studies have raised children of their own. As a parent, you are confronted with all kinds of situations. I had to deal with a step daughter who had made a game out of stealing. I had to deal with a son who just didn't respond to grounding or even loss of privileges, but was hugely disrespectful. We have used spanking--carefully--as a last resort with our kids. It never happens out of the blue. It happens when they choose to repeat conduct that they know is wrong. If we are wrong for doing it I am sorry. We are not perfect people. Just people trying to do the best we can.

2ndTimothyGroup · Dec 20, 2021

TheIndianGirl said:

Spanking may have a quick effect on stopping a bad behavior, but overall there are more cons than pros especially with respect to the parent-child relationship. If kids are only spanked with the hand a few times, maybe they don't remember and it isn't a big deal. However, kids who are routinely spanked will have mental health, development, and trust issues later on. The repetitive spanking also shows that spanking is ineffective for certain children, especially stubborn children so other solutions must be found.

Wow, this is so well-said!

2ndTimothyGroup · Dec 20, 2021

Having had a "father" that publically humiliated me with half-naked beatings for the entire neighborhood to see (and hear), and a mother that chose thick and heavy lengths of garden hose by which to attack my older brother and me, I no longer find it to be of value to even spank. Why? What's wrong with allowing a child to fail? If there are consequences for disobedience that DO NOT involve speaking, why not allow that child to fail and sustain the consequences given? Instead of spanking, why not take away TV privileges? Why not take away summer camp privileges, for example?

"But by not spanking, the child may continue their poor behaviors" one might say. Well, the spankings and beatings that my parents issued to me didn't help me at all, but only made me worse. Those spankings and beatings hurt . . . and they caused me to lie that much more. I was a little kid, for crying out loud! Does it really seem reasonable for a child to become mature at a pre-teen age? Or, even as a teenager, can we really expect our children to become mature? And if they [did] become mature, they'd likely be more mature than most adults (who sin more than children).

Again, let our children fail and continue with the standard restrictions. With basic restrictions, we can still talk to our children with kindness, compassion, tenderness, love, empathy, and even sorrow in our hearts. Without spankings, we can show our children what loving discipline looks and feels like. In fact, we can even undergo punishment [WITH] our children. If we take away TV rights, why not do it with them? They are still punished, but we can, in the process, show them and explain to them to the importance of said discipline. Christ died for us . . . the least that we can do is suffer WITH our children when they make a mistake. Wouldn't this be equivalent to picking up our cross and carrying it? Doesn't this mean that we are to suffer even when we are innocent? Doesn't this mean to carry the burden of another as Christ carried our burdens?

We are missing the opportunity of showing and expressing the Love of Christ to our children when we strike them with anything at all. Instead, we should strike our children with Grace, Compassion, and Mercy.

Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

God grants His Grace to us even when we, as adults, are wrong. The least that we can do is extend our human form of Grace upon our children.

JohnRH · Dec 22, 2021

God made parents big & strong; and children little & weak, with pain-sensitive padding on their rear ends for a reason. Beat them when they need it. It’s your duty.

In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding. Prov 10:13 (KJV)

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Prov 13:24 (KJV)

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Prov 22:15 (KJV)

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Prov 23:13-14 (KJV)

A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. Prov 26:3 (KJV)

The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. Prov 29:15 (KJV)

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb 12:5-11 (KJV)

2ndTimothyGroup · Dec 22, 2021

JohnRH said:

Who beat you as an adult when you committed wrong? Or, did you get away with your sin without a beating?

marciwhite · May 25, 2022

JohnRH said:

While I do think spanking is an appropriate form of discipline for some children in some situations, I would never support (or allow) beating of a child in any instance. There is a big difference for me. In my case, I never spanked my children with anything but my hand. I never hit them anywhere other than their butt. It was only done after an explanation and one in which the child clearly knew what they had done wrong. Hitting them with a rod or a stick? I don't believe that is what Christ would have done.

Children recognize the difference between spanking and abuse. That is the reason why one is effective and the other is not.

JaumeJ · May 25, 2022

A parent, I do not recaqll if it was a mother or a father, once had occasion to give their child a swat on the backside. The child did not understand why, for it was a toddler about three.

The child had run out into their street almost being run over by a car. When the child was older he knew better, however all the explaining inthe world would not have given understaqnding.

Sometimes a swat is the best instruction about a given deed, like running into the middl of a street.

Beckie · May 25, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Pro_10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
Cherry picking scripture is never a good thing. .
Take a look at our world raising a child NOT in the way of the Scriptures has given us a fine mess . There is balance in the whole of Scripture. Pro 10:13 lets us know the rod comes after attempted reasoning .
Step parenting is a whole different level .
Most kids know when the spanking or even the slap is deserved . Looking back, my kids are in their 50s I would spank less . While trusting God to understand how to raise His creation.

montana123 · May 25, 2022

Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Pro 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

A fool is someone that will not listen to what a person says that is right but will keep doing what they want to do.

In the case of the parents it is defiance which they are intentionally saying I am not going to listen to you parents.

Parents should always use verbal discipline at first but if you tell them quite a few times and they are in defiance with the attitude that they are not going to listen to the parents then physical discipline would be alright but do not go overboard.

A lot of children will do wrong but they are not in defiance of their parents but they do wrong like all human beings will do from time to time.

But some children will defy their parents and do what they want to do and not listen to the parents but this age group would be older in their teens.

Some people have a problem why a rod is mentioned but God said they will not die and you will deliver their soul from hell because they will do what is right.

It could be that more force has to be used to get the message through to the rebellious than what they used years ago with a belt or hand.

Some think it might be cruel but them doing what is right is better than physically disciplining them slightly or not at all.

I have never physically disciplined a child for I do not like to do it but it has to be done sometimes for the Bible says it.

Children honoring their parents is the first commandment with promise for if they learn to humble themselves before their parents they will learn to obey authority and less likely to do right and not be rebellious and want to do their own thing.

That is why it is important that parents do what they can do to make sure the children do right.

In the 1960's the youth started rebelling against authority and we see what happened after that movement where people want to do what they want to do and caused more immorality and selfishness and people not acknowledging God.

Beckie · May 25, 2022

Observing our world today i am not surprised at the number of anti Scripture opinions posted in this thread.

2ndTimothyGroup · May 25, 2022

Beckie said:

Pro_10:13 In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
Cherry picking scripture is never a good thing. .
Take a look at our world raising a child NOT in the way of the Scriptures has given us a fine mess . There is balance in the whole of Scripture. Pro 10:13 lets us know the rod comes after attempted reasoning .
Step parenting is a whole different level .
Most kids know when the spanking or even the slap is deserved . Looking back, my kids are in their 50s I would spank less . While trusting God to understand how to raise His creation.

Ahhhh . . . ok.

Moses_Young · May 29, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

The rod is for beating wickedness out of the child, not for simple mistakes that children make. Disobedience is a sin - forgetting to set an alarm clock is not. Children need boundaries and training, but this should be done with love. The wounds of a friend (or loving parent) are to be trusted.

JaumeJ · May 29, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Proverbs 13:24 NKJV - "He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly."

Surely, I can't be the only one here who is mystified by this passage. Is there a Biblical example of a child being beaten into Righteousness? I've read the Bible several times and I cannot think of a single instance.

What do you think?

Wouldn't whipping your child be considered "embittering" them? Certainly, that's what my parents did to me and I loathed them. My parents were quick to beat me, and slow to Love. In turn, when I became a step-father, I remember spanking my young step-son because he didn't set his alarm clock for school. I slapped his butt as he trodded down the stairs - I sent him off to school crying. What a jerk I was!!!!!

So, my spanking my amazing step-son did two things: It embittered his heart towards me and to this day, I have sadness in my heart over what I did.

I don't have children of my own nor do I ever see myself having step-children again (yes, I am divorced). And I cannot imagine ever lifting a hand to a child ever again . . . for I see many benefits in being patient and kind versus beating their little bodies. After all, children are guilty of so much less than any adult. We, adults, are horrific in our sins, or at least we used to be, and yet [we] should go unpunished? Children are punished harshly for the petty little things that children do, yet we adults seem to get away with whatever we like . . . and with impunity. With impunity!

Well did the prophet say when he was given to write, Behold Irefine you, but not as gold or silver, rather I refine you in the furnace of affliction that you be not cut off.

The Hevenly Father chastens al whom He loves, and this means you and me.

JohnDB · May 29, 2022

Just because some people managed to procreate doesn't mean that they ever matured into adulthood.

I tend to think that a lot of parents simply don't have appropriate parenting skills or even self control. Discipline by the two parents is always different in the same household...even though it really shouldn't be.

Mom's can scream and yell, jump up and down, and practically stand on their head before a child will notice that something has gotten their mother upset.
A dad can almost whisper a warning and the child will be grateful for the warning instead of crossing the line.

Parents often forget that while not fully developed yet every child is a person and has a distinct personality and needs a different approach for parenting. Some try to live vicariously through their children....especially focusing on trying to keep them from making the same mistakes they made growing up. Or forcing them to succeed where they failed.... And usually failing miserably at the same time.

Loving children is more than just seeing to their physical needs. Discipline is NOT limited to negative rewards for negative behavior but also includes positive rewards for positive behavior.

This includes not training children to lie as is the most common trait of poor parenting.... IE asking in an angry tone a "yes" or "no" question. The child will not wish to dissapoint a parent or have fear of punishment and immediately lie.

"DID YOU TAKE A COOKIE AFTER I TOLD YOU "NO"? (When their face is covered in cookie crumbs)
Child is going to lie every time.

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