Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Not even close.

Pretribbers continue to emphasize the very small number of believers who will be gathered up into the clouds to receive their glorified bodies, just after all the saints who have already died physically get theirs. The number that comes with Jesus will be HUGE compared to the number of living believers on earth.

And pretribbers seem unable to comprehend the fact that the Bible teaches ONLY one resurrection (when every believer receives a glorified body). And they blow it by placing it before the Tribulation. So that would leave out all the martyrs who died during the Tribulation. Yet, Rev 20:5 calls that resurrection the FIRST resurrection.

There are 2 total. One for the saved (Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23) and one for the unsaved (Acts 24:15).

I challenge pretribbers to refute the SINGLE resurrection for the saved by addressing each of these verses above and using proper exegesis show how these verses don't really mean just one resurrection.

Or, even more easily, just show the verses that clearly show multiple resurrections (or what pretribbers call THE Rapture)

And, while you're at it, please find a verse that shows Jesus taking believers with glorified bodies to heaven.

That alone would end all argument about it.
I don't understand what is the correlation between single resurrection abd pre trib rapture
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I don't understand what is the correlation between single resurrection abd pre trib rapture
A pretrib rapture requires more than 1 rapture. And recall from the most cited passage on "the rapture" (1 Thess 4) the rapture occurs with a resurrection. The dead saints that come back with Jesus receive their glorified bodies and then the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of an eye". iow, they then receive their glorified bodies.

So, when one speaks of "the rapture" they must also include a resurrection. Since they always go together.

The pretribbers have several problems. One, there aren't any verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Second, the Bible clearly teaches just one resurrection (which includes the living believers being "changed"). So that event must be placed carefully on the timeline of history.

If placed before the Tribulation, they have a huge problem. Rev 20:5 notes that martyrs from the Trib will be "raised to life" and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The verse ends with "this is the FIRST resurrection".

But, if "the rapture" occurs 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right.

Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the saved (FIRST ONE) and a resurrection of the unsaved (second one).
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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A pretrib rapture requires more than 1 rapture. And recall from the most cited passage on "the rapture" (1 Thess 4) the rapture occurs with a resurrection. The dead saints that come back with Jesus receive their glorified bodies and then the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of an eye". iow, they then receive their glorified bodies.

So, when one speaks of "the rapture" they must also include a resurrection. Since they always go together.

The pretribbers have several problems. One, there aren't any verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Second, the Bible clearly teaches just one resurrection (which includes the living believers being "changed"). So that event must be placed carefully on the timeline of history.

If placed before the Tribulation, they have a huge problem. Rev 20:5 notes that martyrs from the Trib will be "raised to life" and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The verse ends with "this is the FIRST resurrection".

But, if "the rapture" occurs 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right.

Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the saved (FIRST ONE) and a resurrection of the unsaved (second one).
I myself believe post trib, but is that possible more than one resurrection but only first resurrection reign with Jesus for 1000 years but the rest not include in 1000 king dom?
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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But, if "the rapture" occurs 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right.
But, if "the rapture and the resurrection" occur 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right. There cannot be a resurrection of the dead in Christ years before the first resurrection of the dead in Christ. And since there is be only one resurrection of the dead in Christ called first the resurrection then there can be only one rapture that happens just after it. This is proof the rapture can only happen after the Great Tribulation has ended. Revelation 20 and the Olivet discourse provide that proof.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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But, if "the rapture and the resurrection" occur 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right. There cannot be a resurrection of the dead in Christ years before the first resurrection of the dead in Christ. And since there is be only one resurrection of the dead in Christ called first the resurrection then there can be only one rapture that happens just after it. This is proof the rapture can only happen after the Great Tribulation has ended. Revelation 20 and the Olivet discourse provide that proof.
Rev 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who
share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So people that reign on 1000 kd is
1 people that beheaded for Jesus, it may before tribulation or during tribulation or
2. People that live during tribulation, behaved or not but not take the mark of the beast
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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You did. So says the Bible.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

So Acts 26:23 explains WHY Jesus is called "the firstfruits". He is the first human to receive a glorified body.
Jesus was "The man in linen" he was he first fruit of the grave, not of the Harvest, he didn't need harvesting, he is eternal, Elijah as taken, Lazarus still died, Jesus was the first to arise forevermore. Notice the bolded says first to rise from the grave? Jesus has the same body, with nail holes in the hands and feet, he never knew sin, thus his body can go to heaven. Ours can not.
 
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I myself believe post trib, but is that possible more than one resurrection but only first resurrection reign with Jesus for 1000 years but the rest not include in 1000 king dom?
Since the Bible very clearly uses words to indicate a single resurrection for the saved and a single resurrection for the unsaved, I believe that.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. One for each.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

12 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

From these verses, I am convinced that at the Second Advent (when He comes) all believers from Adam forward will receive their glorified bodies (those who belong to Him).
 
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Jesus was "The man in linen" he was he first fruit of the grave, not of the Harvest, he didn't need harvesting, he is eternal, Elijah as taken, Lazarus still died, Jesus was the first to arise forevermore. Notice the bolded says first to rise from the grave? Jesus has the same body, with nail holes in the hands and feet, he never knew sin, thus his body can go to heaven. Ours can not.
Not sure of hyour point here. But receiving a glorified body isn't about going to heaven.

In fact, the living believers who receive glorified bodies 'when He comes' will NEVER go to heaven. They will stay on earth for the Millennial reign. And then the new heaven and earth.

In fact, the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven and rest on the new earth.

I expect pretribbers will be very shocked to realize this. However, by the time of the second advent, there won't be any "pretribbers" around. :)
 
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But, if "the rapture and the resurrection" occur 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right. There cannot be a resurrection of the dead in Christ years before the first resurrection of the dead in Christ. And since there is be only one resurrection of the dead in Christ called first the resurrection then there can be only one rapture that happens just after it. This is proof the rapture can only happen after the Great Tribulation has ended. Revelation 20 and the Olivet discourse provide that proof.
No way...south of the border.

'I will keep you(church of Philadelphia) from the hour that shall come upon all the earth (tribulation) ....because you have a little faith'. Speaking of the Trib. period. The Rapture occurs.
There is only one resurrection...those dead in Christ shall rise up and be met in the air by those living in Christ and together they...

What bible edition do you use?
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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Not sure of hyour point here. But receiving a glorified body isn't about going to heaven.
Sure it is n the end, because our Sin Flesh can not enter Heaven, thus we have to get a new body, Jesus never knew any sin this he always had a glorified body. How do you think he "DISAPEARED" at times when people were about to stone/kill him? How do you think he made himself look different whereas Mary couldn't not recognize him? Jesus; body was always glorified. He will have those scars for eternity.

In fact, the living believers who receive glorified bodies 'when He comes' will NEVER go to heaven. They will stay on earth for the Millennial reign. And then the new heaven and earth.
Not quite correct, the Dead Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beasts, and are Judged in Rev, 20:4 after Jesus Second Coming are the ONLY ONES who live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. Those living when Jesus returns repopulate the earth. They are still sinners but they do not willfully sin, they still have sin nature, that is why some will follow Satan after he is loosed from the pit a 1000 years later.

Those of us Raptured will indeed get a Glorious Body in Heaven a the Marriage to the Lamb (Jesus) but that happens Pre Trib, not later on. Thus those of us who are Raptured Pre Trib will, I assume, go back to Heaven since ONLY the Martyred who refused the Mark of the Beas serve with Jesus for 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In fact, the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven and rest on the new earth.

I expect pretribbers will be very shocked to realize this. However, by the time of the second advent, there won't be any "pretribbers" around.
The only ones shocked will be you guys flying through the air saying, "They were right, please take me all the way" while we spike the football.

My guess is this earth is the future Hell.
 
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This tells me about you in essence. Remember I stated I never say things until I know, that I know, that I know its of God? The flip side is whenever, WHENEVER, I hear a truth from the Holy Spirit I know it, no matter who speaks it.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

So, we have 100 of understandings and you don't understand the Church is in terrible shape? And why is it? Because most are so busy with loving this evil world that the never hear the Spirit when it presents truths unto them. Most people are like Martha, they are so distracted with worldly things they miss the good thing (God/Jesus), Mary sat at Jesus' feet, and Martha was upset because she was doing all the work (preoccupied), but Jesus rebuked Martha, many people miss God's truths because they are too preoccupied with this worlds goings on. Whenever I see people mock the Holy Spirit like they do with Benny Hinn and others, I understand right away they have NO DISCERNEMENT whatsoever.

Likewise, I don't need no men's approval sir, I work of the Lord, the discernment of the things that are of God and which are not of God is on you. God will require us to explain why we got things wrong, and fir the most part, TBH, its because we do not spend enough time in the Spirit/in Prayer. So, the whole "Doctrinal understanding" falls on you and others. The Holy Spirit always understands the Holy Spirit. The spirit always bears witness of itself.


It needs not be stated, every grain has a FIRST-FRUIT, not just one grain. It simply means those that ripened first. So, ALL the Barley comes in before the Wheat mostly, but the Wheat still has a First-fruit, just like the Barley does.


Nothing is omitted, the thing that puts you down a rabbit hole here is not understanding that all grains and fruits have First-fruits. Yes, the 144,000 (3-5 million Jews who repent) are First fruits, as are the Raptured Church (Barley). As are the Wicked Grapes of Rev. 14:17-20.



What I get, reading on down, is you had a concept and you are seemingly stuck on it, you can't hear the words "You are wrong" thus the Barley can't come first even though it does. You go so far as to disagree with me about an article that clearly shows different, people do not just write articles without doing research, and even though this proves the Pre Trib Rapture (which I think you agree with) you can't bring yourself to shed that old argument of yours, like I did with Babylon being Rome. So, let me try this in another way, since I have always liked you, I think your heart is in the right place, you are not a wisenhiemer, most of the time you are earnest in thought. So, you think God will not give His revelation to one man who seeks harder than others? Its just the opposite, He gives us riddles because we SHOULD understand, but the world will not understand his truths!!

Matt. 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

So, we are given the keys (Spirit) to understand all these things, Jesus gave John in the book of Revelation (BoR), thus just like the parables he spoke unto the world, he likewise speaks in code/riddles/parables so to speak in the whole BoR.

So, Jesus in the BoR gives us Old Testament references and references to things he spoke during his lifetime on earth. In Matt. 13 we get the Wheat and the tares parable, Jesus says he came ONLY unto the Jews so the Jews who grow together with the wicked tares until the very end have to be the Wheat. The grapes are always used to infer the Judgment of God via placing the wicked in the Wine-press of His Wrath.

As I stated the other day, with modern machines, of course they now crush the barley just like the wheat, because it is easy to do that way. The reason Barley was considered a poor mans grain/bread 2000 years ago is that they could get by without crushing it, but you might find a few tough spots in it (husks) but with wheat that wouldn't work, so it had to be crushed. No ones saying you can't crush Barley and make it better, that goes without saying, but that is why Barley was cheaper at that time. In modern times we can get an ordinary car or one souped up. All cars ae not the same, likewise back in the day Barley was far cheaper because of the process/time it took. You citing the way modern Barley is harvested has no relevance to 2000 years ago.



We get the Three Harvests in Rev. 14, the whole problem you are having is you had something already solved in your mind and you seemingly can't get past that hurdle. Jesus shows up on the Mount, the Jews are not really with him, they are in the Petra/Bozrah Wilderness. Read Isaiah 63:1, he comes from Edom and Bozrah with blood stained garments. So, Jesus harvests the Wheat which has a First-fruits who are the 144,000 (that doesn't need to be said in reality, I however know why you mention it, because of the Pre Trib Rapture, they however are Barley First-fruits), but he doesn't actually bring them with him as he lands, it just showing Jesus is going to reign amongst his Jewish brothers in Jerusalem for 1000 years thus he is Harvesting them into His Barn so to speak like the parable says. Then in verse 14 we see Jesus Harvest not from the Mount in Jerusalem (this should be a HUGE CLUE for you) but from upon a cloud, just like the Scriptures say happen in the Pre Trib Rapture, we are called up to be with Jesus. He thrusts in the sickle himself. In the Rev. 14:17-20 Harvest an Angel thrusts in the Sickle. Jesus is is up on a cloud and you can't see that is the Rapture ? I don't get that thought thought process tbh !!

THINK HERE NOW

Israel is NEVER at the Wedding Supper and why would they be? This happens before the Beast is defeated, which is why Armageddon is the Wedding Super. That is also why Jesus has "Blood on his Garments" when he comes from Edom/Bozrah. Israel have the Fathers name imprinted on their foreheads as Rev. 14:1 clearly says, they are already married unto God the Father. A Bride only as one marriage and marriage supper, not two, Israel are the Fathers bride, we are Jesus' bride. Jacob had two wives, Leah and Rebecca, a foreshadowing of Israel and the Church. One was preferred and the other bride was forced so to speak.
"""We get the Three Harvests in Rev. 14, the whole problem you are having is you had something already solved in your mind and you seemingly can't get past that hurdle. Jesus shows up on the Mount, the Jews are not really with him
are in the Petra/Bozrah Wilderness. Read Isaiah 63:1, he comes from Edom and Bozrah with blood stained garments. So, Jesus harvests the Wheat which has a First-fruits who are the 144,000 (that doesn't need to be said in reality, I however know why you mention it, because of the Pre Trib Rapture, they however are Barley First-fruits), but he doesn't actually bring them with him as he lands, it just showing Jesus is going to reign amongst his Jewish brothers in Jerusalem for 1000 years thus he is Harvesting them into His Barn so to speak like the parable says. Then in verse 14 we see Jesus Harvest not from the Mount in Jerusalem (this should be a HUGE CLUE for you) but from upon a cloud, just like the Scriptures say happen in the Pre Trib Rapture, we are called up to be with Jesus. He thrusts in the sickle himself. In the Rev. 14:17-20 Harvest an Angel thrusts in the Sickle. Jesus is is up on a cloud and you can't see that is the Rapture ? I don't get that thought thought process """

Well you got a couple things right.
Yes we see 3 gatherings in rev 14.

Yes rev 14: 14 can be called a rapture.

Maybe you got another point correct.

But no i see no wheat at all.
No barley anywhere.

And no...definately NO wedding supper at armageddon.

But for somecreason you keep transposing 144k into millions.

Maybe you can show us a formula for that.

And BTW the First miracle is forever cannonized as First MIRACLE.
In the kingdom, last and first are interchangeable.
It was declared " you saved the best for last"
We see this in romans. Very vivid.
The jews come to the wedding last as Jesus illustrated.






































 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Hello Brother and thanks for this: The combine distance of the western and eastern routes from Megiddo/Armageddon to Jerusalem is slightly under 200 miles according to Google Earth; Comprehending two forward columns of troops occupying these two highways all the way to Jerusalem. After all we are looking at a major defeat, orchestrated by the four angels of the Euphrates. These are four Angels having been prepared for the hour, day, month, and year. to be released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. What will be said beyond this point has been the work of what is now over a thousand pastors world wide; that by now (in the past twenty-two years) has crossed almost every denominational boundary. These relationships have yielded much fruit; but for now it boils down to a single word that translators were not respecting as a singular form in the Greek, but this discrepancy is revealed in the footnotes of some NASB bibles. The implications of what follows are disconcerting, if not all out shocking. Implications that forced us to take a critical examination of Revelations Chronology.

Rev 9:13-15 The sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for this year and month and day and hour, were released, so that they would kill a third of the men/G444.*

*G444 matches the Greek ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos,) which occurs 550 times in 498 verses in the Greek concordance of the NASB https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g444/nasb95/mgnt/0-1/

The Fine Print

*G444/the men. - Most bibles (many times) have erroneously rendered the Greek word (Anthropos) as “Mankind” as founds in Revelation 9:15, 18, and 20, thus conveying the idea that these 3 plagues are affecting all of humanity. Yet, contextually and etymologically, the correct translation is "the men", and refers specifically to the soldiers (“the men”) (a coalition) from all the nations having bivouacked in the valley of Megiddo/Armageddon. Remember that the death/blood is said to be just outside Jerusalem extending approximately 200 miles north to the Valley of Megiddo/Armageddon, but with only a third of the troops killed.

Rev 14:20 - The wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood splashed out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred and ninety-two kilometers/181.8mi.​

Revelations 9:15, 18, and 20 all include the forgery rendering the word Anthropos “Mankind” rather than rightfully MEN”.


The word "Mankind" is actually the Greek word anthropoi; a word nowhere to be found in the New Testament. This forgery is significant in that the translators were trying to create the illusion that the battle of Armageddon was a global conflict, rather than a regional battle affecting those who will gather to subjugate Israel (firstly from the north extending south.) Therefore, even the actual words of Rev 9:15, 18, and 20 do not fit a narrative for an end-of-the-tribulation’s battle.

Mathew Eight twenty-seven and John Four-twenty eight are examples where G444/Anthrōpos is properly translated, faithful to the Greek singular form:

[Mat 8:27 NASB] The men/G444 were amazed, and said, “What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”

[Jhn 4:28 NASB95] 28 So the woman left her water pot, and went into the city and said to the men/G444,

Properly placed, Armageddon is 3 ½ Days past the “middle of the week.” All this leaves us with another battle where the coalition approaches from the south, coming up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; where rather than four Angels orchestrating the defeat, it's the Lord Himself, coming in the Glory of the Father and His Angels, to destroy (in one day) ALL the wicked (not only around Jerusalem) but also in the entire world. A battle called "The Great Supper of God."
“One Third of the Men were Killed”

Rev 9:18, 20-21 - A third of the men/G444* were killed by these three plagues: by the fire, the smoke, and the brimstone which proceeded from their mouths. … 20 The rest of *the men*, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, venerating demons, and the idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and of wood. None of these Idols can see, hear, nor can they walk. 21 None of them repented of their murders, or sorceries, or of their immorality; nor did they repent from all the things they had stolen.
NOTICE! Those who get killed at the Battle of Armageddon will be saved (Yet, on the other hand, the Nations will still be enduring this defeated, but they are defiant/rage.) The Scriptures indicate that the survivors did not repent of the works of their hands … This means the ones who are destined to be killed WILL believe in God at some point of time before their death.

Rev 9:20a - The rest of the men/G444*, who were "not" killed by these plagues, did "not" repent regarding the works of their hands.
Because of Moses and Elijah, these prophecies will be known amongst these armies regarding this plague, that they were to turn on one another. A third of the men among these armies will repent, and will be taking their places among the Great Multitude…

Trying to understand all this; that is, the Chronology, in that we are having copies of copies (etcetera) (that other than a few small scrapes) and them being separated by (lets say) 100 years of the signature; we are only having (even less ancient copies) from an organization having had their hands on the reins of the Sixth Beast. This is to say that a particular woman always survives the destruction (the one who "lives securely") of every empire she has ever ridden (that being six but one more in the future). She has been the plague on all humanity, with the history of conquering and becoming wealthy from the gifts of beast (her many lovers) She is the one saying (that because of her) we are having the bible. The Harlot is saying she was with the church from the beginning; yet all of what we see of her early days, is portraying Herself as being among the social elite. If this is the case, then how is it that she could have been so carless, to have complete lost almost all the original manuscripts. Almost everyone knows to sacredly guard original documentation. The harlots history is one of having ridden the beasts of the earth while having spread the plague of war, looting, and biological pestilence wherever she has gone in the world. These things are prime indicators (that by now) we are having leaven added to three pecks dough. The Book (hardcopy) "SEVEN EYES" will first be distributed to at least two thousand pastors in the united states, before being available for free download to the masses of planet earth... There are a few people here (on this website) that we want to also send a hard copy; so let me know if you want one...
"NOTICE! Those who get killed at the Battle of Armageddon will be saved"

Disagree. They would have had to be deceived to be there in the first place.
Many Saints are martyred during this time, yes. None are enjoined in the assault against Israel. Or Jesus. These are all, unfortunately, cannon fodder IMO.

It is impossible for the elect to be decieved. Now or then.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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It's not. The lake of fire is not the Earth. It is an unknown distance away from both heaven and Earth, Revelation 20:11.
You have misunderstood this meaning. This means simply that this Great White Thrones is n Gods Heaven, not our Earthy Heaven, and this Earth, and our Heaven BOTH fled away from God's Holy Face, seemingly saying God is finished with this heaven and earth(our whole universe) for us, thus He will deliver a New Heaven and Earth, and then my guess is when Satan is released one last time, and God BURNS THEM ALL UP, that ignites this earth once and for all and it becomes Hell. No, it might not be, but the reference you are making is about God's face fleeing from our universe, its Heaven and Earth, He is finished with it, thus we get a new one in the very next chapter.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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You have misunderstood this meaning. This means simply that this Great White Thrones is n Gods Heaven, not our Earthy Heaven, and this Earth, and our Heaven BOTH fled away from God's Holy Face

What it means and proves is that where the GWTJ and LOF are is away from heaven and Earth. Thus, to claim the Earth is the future hell is wrong. Hades and the bottomless pit are indeed described as downward in the Earth but not the LOF.
 

Friend

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Dec 7, 2021
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"NOTICE! Those who get killed at the Battle of Armageddon will be saved"

Disagree. They would have had to be deceived to be there in the first place.
Many Saints are martyred during this time, yes. None are enjoined in the assault against Israel. Or Jesus. These are all, unfortunately, cannon fodder IMO.

It is impossible for the elect to be decieved. Now or then.
Rev 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.​

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, “Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die,” says the Lord GOD of hosts.​

Num 16:46-47 Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put in it fire from the altar, and lay incense on it; then bring it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone forth from the LORD, the plague has begun!" 47 Then Aaron took it as Moses had spoken, and ran into the midst of the assembly, for behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people.

Atonement isn't for people who are perfect

Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.​
 

Friend

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Dec 7, 2021
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Just using your post as a launching point bro. So with that said I easily find that the verse is not figurative. Reason being is you can go back for the last twenty years and read articles about how the dams that Turkey has built is a big problem and will affect water flow in the years to come.

Even articles wondering if the next war in the Mideast will be over the water flow and Turkish dams. Even articles calling Turkey a water terrorist. So the bible saying that the Euphrates is dried up can read literal to me since the headlines for the last twenty years have been reporting how the Turkish dams can be that problematic.

The Colorado river no longer flows to the Pacific, part of the Colorado river has dried up, because of the way it has been dammed and the water usage so what stops the same for the Euphrates happening in the future as written in the book of Revelations.

So again knowing that is not what you said but just using your post as a launching point to address the previous comment.
You got is exactly right brother: The only thing Rondonmon and Charlie think is literal is a decimated Promise land; even saying almost everything else is symbolic; but I say this, "Symbolic of What?" Like drinking Grape Juice and it turns into literal Blood? like eating bread and it turns into the literal flesh of Savior? But according to the flesh, there can be nothing greater than the Law: But did the Animal Sacrifices of Israel turn into the body and blood of Savior when eaten? So what do the scriptures say about these things?

2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh; yet now, we no longer know Him in this way.

1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.​

Savior says eat my flesh and drink my blood: but what does He say when reading on?:

Jhn 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are life.

Even the Body of the Sacrifice Had to be taken outside the camp.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp 12Therefore Jesus also, that He sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

1Pe 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Rom 6:10 The death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.​

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"NOTICE! Those who get killed at the Battle of Armageddon will be saved"

Disagree. They would have had to be deceived to be there in the first place.
Many Saints are martyred during this time, yes. None are enjoined in the assault against Israel. Or Jesus. These are all, unfortunately, cannon fodder IMO.

It is impossible for the elect to be decieved. Now or then.
May the blind like me be given sight!

Rev 9:20 The rest of the men, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk​
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Not sure of hyour point here. But receiving a glorified body isn't about going to heaven.
Sure it is n the end, because our Sin Flesh can not enter Heaven, thus we have to get a new body, Jesus never knew any sin this he always had a glorified body.
I guess you didn't actually read my post. The single resurrection occurs when Jesus returns to earth, after the Tribulation. Then He sets up His 1,000 year reign. Then the present heaven and earth melt, and there will be a new heaven and earth. So, there is no time where believers in their glorified bodies will go up to heaven.

How do you think he "DISAPEARED" at times when people were about to stone/kill him? How do you think he made himself look different whereas Mary couldn't not recognize him? Jesus; body was always glorified. He will have those scars for eternity.
How does this have any relevance to the fact that living believers at the end of the Trib and receive a glorified body then go to heaven?

What verse informs you that glorified believers will go to heaven?

Not quite correct, the Dead Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beasts, and are Judged in Rev, 20:4 after Jesus Second Coming are the ONLY ONES who live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.
Rather, your view is "not quit4e corrrect". There is NO evidence from Rev 20 that the maartyrs are "the ONLY ONES" as you claim.

In fact, reigning with Christ is what Paul told Timothy the result of enduring.

2 Tim 2-
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

Red words is a condition; keeping the faith.
Blue words is the result of keeping the condition; reigning with Him, a REWARD for faithfulness. This directly relates to Revb 20:4,5.
Green words is another condition; the OPPOSITE of the red words, with the result of being denied that reward.
Purple words explain why the believer's salvation remains intact; the Holy Spirit resides in them. And God CANNOT deny Himself.

Those living when Jesus returns repopulate the earth. They are still sinners but they do not willfully sin, they still have sin nature, that is why some will follow Satan after he is loosed from the pit a 1000 years later.
Since the single resurrrection of the saved occurs when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation, and they all receive a glorified body, they are not the ones who repopulate the earth. The ones who enter the Millennial Reign of Christ are the surviving unbelievers from the Tribulation. This is the ONLY rational explanation for WHY there will be a world-wide rebellion against Christ and His reign.

Further, if living mortal believers were in the Millennial reign, and there is ONLY ONE resurrection, your view totally leaves out these people for EVER receiving a glorified body.

Those of us Raptured will indeed get a Glorious Body in Heaven a the Marriage to the Lamb (Jesus) but that happens Pre Trib, not later on. Thus those of us who are Raptured Pre Trib will, I assume, go back to Heaven since ONLY the Martyred who refused the Mark of the Beas serve with Jesus for 1000 years.
Your view fails to accept Paul's teaching that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes". 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse totally refutes your view. The phrase "those who belong to Him" refers to ALL believers from Adam on. And all of the saved will be resurrected (receive glorified bodies) "when He comes", a clear reference to His Second Advent.

Your view cannot account for this verse. And it refutes your view.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The only ones shocked will be you guys flying through the air saying, "They were right, please take me all the way" while we spike the football.
Interesting fantasy, for sure.

My guess is this earth is the future Hell.
I'm not really into guessing. I hook my views on what the Bible DOES say. I don't "read between the lines" either.

But what is clear is that the SINGLE resurrection for the saved occurs "when He comes", and Rev 20:4,5 places that clearly after the Trib.

But that isn't the only evidence. 2 Thess 2:1-3 is further evidence.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the actual day He returns) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

What is clear is that neither the Second Advent nor the "rapture" will occur UNTIL the Trib happens and the a/c or beast is revealed.

So you now have 2 passages that clearly show us WHEN the resurrection/rapture will occur.

It's yours to believe.